[Game] Kings @ Cleveland Cavaliers, 2/5/2024, 4:00p PT, 7:00p ET

[gunks]

If HB can actually just be rediscovered from this road trip, it'll pay huge huge dividends for us down the road. Dude has been on a mission the last 8 games, since his ATL explosion.

20.9 PPG
3.5 RPG
1.1 APG

63.2% TS
43.1% from 3 (8.1 3PA)

-Only 1 game below 10 points the entire stretch. 5/8 games with 20+ points.
-Kings 6-2 during this stretch.

Obviously not going to expect HB to keep up a 20 PPG average with elite efficiency, but I just want the aggression to stay for good and for him to keep looking for his offense. Because there's a pretty good chance the ball is going to go in.

As a longtime Barnes-Basher, I support this message.

Easy to see we're a better team when he's on. It's the inconsistency that's maddening.

I still wish we'd just stick him on the bench to run roughshod over 2nd units with Monk. That'll also help Keegan with his aggression and sense of "belonging" in the pecking order. Throw Edwards into the starting 5 as our 3 and D guy.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Also I think brown wanted Murray to be that 3rd guy in place of huerter/barnes, and to murray's credit he has made tremendously improvements. He just needs to be more consistent. On nights where Murray just doesn't have it, I could see barnes getting more of a nod over him.

He's not likely to be "a third star" on a contending team, if he's only a 3 and D guy. Needs to be able to expand his offensive versatility.....and that's up to Brown and him to figure out how

 

[captain bill]

This was a schedule loss, and we were also able to be somewhat competitive despite Cleveland's absurd shooting. 29 combined free throws for both teams is incredibly low but I guess that's what you get in such a high-volume 3 point shooting game. Domas's 15th triple double of the season ties him with Jokic.

Finishing the road trip 5-2 isn't bad. Things could have gotten ugly and we could easily have dropped to 8

The remainder of our February schedule is pretty brutal. Gotta take care of business Weds vs Detroit.

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah, the question is will Barnes turn it off if Brown keeps going to him. That is basically right in the neighborhood in efficiency Barnes has had since 2020. Every year since he's avagered a TS% of 60%+.

Right, but very rarely has HB ever kept up this level of aggression. Which has always been his problem, because he'll just fade into the nether and just be content with 2 or 3 shots for a few games.

HB just really is the ultimate team guy and is willing to take a back-seat for the team. But, the reality is, dude doesn't bring a ton of value if he's not shooting and scoring the ball. Especially this year as he's gotten older and his athleticism has waned.

So, just keep letting that thing fly HB. It's working

 

[SacTownKid]

Also I think brown wanted Murray to be that 3rd guy in place of huerter/barnes, and to murray's credit he has made tremendously improvements. He just needs to be more consistent. On nights where Murray just doesn't have it, I could see barnes getting more of a nod over him.

I still think Browns answer fell in his lap. Murray could be his 3 and D guy which is way harder to find at the forward spot. Play smart, hit your spot shots, and lock it down on defense. Now it's question of result for Monte whether that makes this team a contender or not. If no deal is found to push the team up on paper he'll know by summer time.

 

[iowamcnabb]

The best shooting percentage for a team with 40 or more 3s in a game is 60 percent. There a bunch of teams between 60 and 56 percent but this was the 15th best three point performance for a team in league history.

 

[Joshoua]

If HB can actually just be rediscovered from this road trip, it'll pay huge huge dividends for us down the road. Dude has been on a mission the last 8 games, since his ATL explosion.

20.9 PPG
3.5 RPG
1.1 APG

63.2% TS
43.1% from 3 (8.1 3PA)

-Only 1 game below 10 points the entire stretch. 5/8 games with 20+ points.
-Kings 6-2 during this stretch.

Obviously not going to expect HB to keep up a 20 PPG average with elite efficiency, but I just want the aggression to stay for good and for him to keep looking for his offense. Because there's a pretty good chance the ball is going to go in.

Agreed! We need him to be aggressive 20ppg probably isn’t sustainable but if he can give us 14-17 a night we’ll be solid

 

[SacTownKid]

Right, but very rarely has HB ever kept up this level of aggression. Which has always been his problem, because he'll just fade into the nether and just be content with 2 or 3 shots for a few games.

HB just really is the ultimate team guy and is willing to take a back-seat for the team. But, the reality is, dude doesn't bring a ton of value if he's not shooting and scoring the ball. Especially this year as he's gotten older and his athleticism has waned.

So, just keep letting that thing fly HB. It's working

Yeah, that's why I like the fit right now with Murray playing the defense he is. Let Murray spend that energy on D and let Barnes go to work on the other end.

 

[captain bill]

He's not likely to be "a third star" on a contending team, if he's only a 3 and D guy. Needs to be able to expand his offensive versatility.....and that's up to Brown and him to figure out how

He showed some of that versatility earlier in the year. With HB re-emerging he seems to have stepped back a bit. I get the feeling we might be showcasing Barnes ahead of the trade deadline, but either way his return to form should be welcome. If they're both here MB and staff will def need to figure out how to get them both going during the same game

 

[The_Jamal]

I still think Browns answer fell in his lap. Murray could be his 3 and D guy which is way harder to find at the forward spot. Play smart, hit your spot shots, and lock it down on defense. Now it's question of result for Monte whether that makes this team a contender or not. If no deal is found to push the team up on paper he'll know by summer time.

But you say that, but how do you ignore the Miami game? Or a bunch of other Keegan explosion spots he's had this year? Keegan just got done averaging 17.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG with a 61.3% TS and 39.1% from 3 (6.1 3PA). That screams 2nd/3rd option no?

He's still just a second year player; the consistency isn't there. But the leap Keegan is making absolutely gives me confidence he'll be that guy, maybe as soon as next year. But for now, I think HB can fill in some of those slots on nights Keegan doesn't have it. It doesn't mean you go away from Keegan or continue to develop his offensive game though and pigeonhole him into a "3andD" forward. That's silly, he's shown far more upside than that.

 

[The_Jamal]

He's not likely to be "a third star" on a contending team, if he's only a 3 and D guy. Needs to be able to expand his offensive versatility.....and that's up to Brown and him to figure out how

Oh I strongly disagree. The consistency isn't there, absolutely, but he's got plenty of time to get there. He's flashed all the upside in the world to be a 20 PPG guy on a good team. Again, he just got done with a 17.7 PPG month on elite efficiency. He's not far away from being that reliable #2 guy.

 

[KF8]

I still think Browns answer fell in his lap. Murray could be his 3 and D guy which is way harder to find at the forward spot. Play smart, hit your spot shots, and lock it down on defense. Now it's question of result for Monte whether that makes this team a contender or not. If no deal is found to push the team up on paper he'll know by summer time.

I have no doubt that he'll be a very good 3&d guy, but the big question is whether he can become that 3rd star where he can be relied upon to create and get us a bucket when needed. I think many of us believe he can be, but I'm not ready to annoint him that yet. I think we will have a better answer in 1-2 more years. Excited to see his development, so wel'll see.

 

[SacTownKid]

But you say that, but how do you ignore the Miami game? Or a bunch of other Keegan explosion spots he's had this year? Keegan just got done averaging 17.7 PPG, 5.8 RPG with a 61.3% TS and 39.1% from 3 (6.1 3PA). That screams 2nd/3rd option no?

He's still just a second year player; the consistency isn't there. But the leap Keegan is making absolutely gives me confidence he'll be that guy, maybe as soon as next year. But for now, I think HB can fill in some of those slots on nights Keegan doesn't have it. It doesn't mean you go away from Keegan or continue to develop his offensive game though and pigeonhole him into a "3andD" forward. That's silly, he's shown far more upside than that.

Murray can grow but because right now it's not every night, every month. Barnes has years of proof. Look Keegan still has yet to create enough offense to even register in isolation. That's just a fact and the reason is likely because he doesn't get to the line. Will he at some point? Perhaps. Heck, maybe this month. Who knows. For now though I think a balance is being found.

 

[iowamcnabb]

He showed some of that versatility earlier in the year. With HB re-emerging he seems to have stepped back a bit. I get the feeling we might be showcasing Barnes ahead of the trade deadline, but either way his return to form should be welcome. If they're both here MB and staff will def need to figure out how to get them both going during the same game

they both had it going this game in the first half. Keegan had a stretch in the third that he just didn’t get the ball much and then when he subbed out and back in, the game was out of hand. They should have tried to get him going early in that third, they really needed a scoring punch.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Oh I strongly disagree. The consistency isn't there, absolutely, but he's got plenty of time to get there. He's flashed all the upside in the world to be a 20 PPG guy on a good team. Again, he just got done with a 17.7 PPG month on elite efficiency. He's not far away from being that reliable #2 guy.

I have little doubt he can get there. Just needs to have an expanded game within the offense, including some post touches.....and it needs to happen a lot, in order for him to be comfortable enough to do it consistently

 

[iowamcnabb]

Murray can grow but because right now it's not every night, every month. Barnes has years of proof. Look Keegan still has yet to create enough offense to even register in isolation. That's just a fact and the reason is likely because he doesn't get to the line. Will he at some point? Perhaps. Heck, maybe this month. Who knows. For now though I think a balance is being found.

I just don’t think you are going to see much isolation from Keegan. He is a high bbiq guy and knows that him taking guys off the dribble is often times not the right decision. And frankly we don’t really need him to do it imo. Instead he needs to stay aggressive and decisive within the offense. 3s, cuts, 15 footers and attacking close outs is something he can do right now. The occasional post up and an iso or two on mismatches is where he can find the most success. Plenty of big time players have had all star years and great careers with that blueprint

 

[Padrino]

Murray can grow but because right now it's not every night, every month. Barnes has years of proof. Look Keegan still has yet to create enough offense to even register in isolation. That's just a fact and the reason is likely because he doesn't get to the line. Will he at some point? Perhaps. Heck, maybe this month. Who knows. For now though I think a balance is being found.

I'm inclined to agree that Brown is really looking to Barnes right now for reliable offense while the Kings are in the middle of a dogfight to stay above the play-in line. My assumption is that McNair and Brown will clear the decks a bit for Murray when he's got enough tools and confidence at his disposal to step into that "third star" role. Barnes will hopefully remain a useful bit of trade bait when the time comes to pull that particular trigger. I don't suspect it will be before the deadline this week, but I suppose we'll see.

 

[SacTownKid]

Oh I strongly disagree. The consistency isn't there, absolutely, but he's got plenty of time to get there. He's flashed all the upside in the world to be a 20 PPG guy on a good team. Again, he just got done with a 17.7 PPG month on elite efficiency. He's not far away from being that reliable #2 guy.

Yeah, but now is what they're looking at. Here's what's going on so far this season. Keegan goes up, Barnes goes down. Barnes goes up, Keegan goes down. At least in terms of offensive role. Since the Atlanta game when Barnes was pushed up Keegan has dropped nearly 3 shot attempts per game. For someone that averages less than 2 free throws in 30+ minutes that's a pretty drastic difference since so much of his offense is based on pure shot attempts. It's all make or miss.

 

[Woot!]

Yeah, it's his handling but he knows it. One more summer and see what happens there. If he can't make a jump then Brown needs to start giving him his post game back. He can get contact downhill off the spin. If you can't get to the line you can't be a teams 2nd option. The Warriors always put a wing scorer next to Klay as a true 2nd option so if that's what it is it is.

It's not just his handles. His court vision isn't great and once he goes into his offensive move he ONLY looks to pass when thwarted. If the teammate wide open under the hoop isn't in his direction line of sight, Keegan isn't finding him.

 

[SLAB]

As a longtime Barnes-Basher, I support this message.

Easy to see we're a better team when he's on. It's the inconsistency that's maddening.

I still wish we'd just stick him on the bench to run roughshod over 2nd units with Monk. That'll also help Keegan with his aggression and sense of "belonging" in the pecking order. Throw Edwards into the starting 5 as our 3 and D guy.

Dude’s 100% turning back into a pumpkin when the deadline passes and he can sink into the background without the heat of a Trade immediately over his head.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I've cleaned up all of the jawing going on after the game ended. Fight's over, don't bother going back to your corners, just go to your respective locker rooms.

Anybody who wants to continue discussing the game/team go right ahead. Anybody starts a fight back up, or so much as says "it wasn't me", I'm locking the thread.

 

[hrdboild]

Was this "a schedule loss", a regular loss, or another kind?

Feels like a "league-mandated" loss. I wouldn't think it possible in 2024 for the starting lineup to take a combined 62 shots from the field and not warrant even a single free throw but clearly it is possible. I hate pointing at the refs after every loss but we have a lot of guys on this team who are pretty good at drawing contact and just don't get the same calls that we see our opponents getting for whatever reason.

But mostly I wanted to comment on our recurring problem with finding ourselves on the receiving end of scorching hot 3pt shooting game after game after game. It's not just statistical noise at this point -- it feels like this must be the scouting report now: when you play the Kings, just keep swinging it until you get an open three. We will overhelp and leave someone open. There is an adjustment there that we need to make because hoping teams will miss threes at a league-average rate sure isn't working. Or alternatively, If our defensive game plan is to force other teams to beat us with the 3 then we need a new defensive game plan.

 

[gunks]

Dude’s 100% turning back into a pumpkin when the deadline passes and he can sink into the background without the heat of a Trade immediately over his head.

I mean.... probably... haha

 

[hrdboild]

He's not likely to be "a third star" on a contending team, if he's only a 3 and D guy. Needs to be able to expand his offensive versatility.....and that's up to Brown and him to figure out how

I think he's shown that he's capable of being an iso-scorer this season when we've asked him to do that. My opinion about his inconsistency is that it's mostly a matter of mentality for him. He will always defer to our veterans until/unless someone personally tells him that we need him to go out and get buckets. He's a lot like Barnes in that way. When Barnes started taking the "too passive" criticism personally, he started looking for his shot again. And that roughly corresponds with Keegan taking over Barnes' vacated role as the guy who mostly passes unless he's wide open. What we actually need is for both guys to be aggressively opportunistic and use the threat of an off-the-dribble attack or catch and shoot three at any time to force the defense out of position. It seems like where we've struggled the most this season on offense is getting all 5 guys working together to attack the defense instead of one or two guys attacking and everyone else watching.

 

[SacTownKid]

I just don’t think you are going to see much isolation from Keegan. He is a high bbiq guy and knows that him taking guys off the dribble is often times not the right decision. And frankly we don’t really need him to do it imo. Instead he needs to stay aggressive and decisive within the offense. 3s, cuts, 15 footers and attacking close outs is something he can do right now. The occasional post up and an iso or two on mismatches is where he can find the most success. Plenty of big time players have had all star years and great careers with that blueprint

I totally agree. The player he's inexplicably turning into is the type of player you don't find. Do they carry a franchise? Probably not but when teams find them they usually don't let them go and almost always are ones they develop themselves. If he can be this teams Shawn Marion or Tayshaun Prince it's a score of a lifetime if you've got talent at the top. If not then yeah, start opening that offensive side sooner than later and let him launch.

 

[NewArena]

Aside from our recent good play that has calmed me down the last week or so, that 4 game heartbreaking skid the other week, has really made losses like tonight a lot easier. This one is easy to gloss over and count as a scheduled loss, though we obviously have needs for more length on this squad and blah blah blah.

 

[reptilexcq2]

Right, but very rarely has HB ever kept up this level of aggression. Which has always been his problem, because he'll just fade into the nether and just be content with 2 or 3 shots for a few games.

HB just really is the ultimate team guy and is willing to take a back-seat for the team. But, the reality is, dude doesn't bring a ton of value if he's not shooting and scoring the ball. Especially this year as he's gotten older and his athleticism has waned.

So, just keep letting that thing fly HB. It's working

True. HB doesn't bring the extra when he's in there. Other than shooting and post up, you won't see him making incredible defense, help defense, block shots, diving for lose ball, hustling, outrebound, alter shots. These are the reasons I suggest Kings trade him for better upgrade on our defense since last year.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think he's shown that he's capable of being an iso-scorer this season when we've asked him to do that. My opinion about his inconsistency is that it's mostly a matter of mentality for him. He will always defer to our veterans until/unless someone personally tells him that we need him to go out and get buckets. He's a lot like Barnes in that way. When Barnes started taking the "too passive" criticism personally, he started looking for his shot again. And that roughly corresponds with Keegan taking over Barnes' vacated role as the guy who mostly passes unless he's wide open. What we actually need is for both guys to be aggressively opportunistic and use the threat of an off-the-dribble attack or catch and shoot three at any time to force the defense out of position. It seems like where we've struggled the most this season on offense is getting all 5 guys working together to attack the defense instead of one or two guys attacking and everyone else watching.

Absolutely. If they can get away from the mentality of taking turns having big nights, it will go a long way towards being a contender. Every starter needs to come out with the intention of scoring 25+ in each game. Doesn't matter if someone else is 20 points ahead of you in the scoring column on any given night

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

Feels like a "league-mandated" loss. I wouldn't think it possible in 2024 for the starting lineup to take a combined 62 shots from the field and not warrant even a single free throw but clearly it is possible. I hate pointing at the refs after every loss but we have a lot of guys on this team who are pretty good at drawing contact and just don't get the same calls that we see our opponents getting for whatever reason.

But mostly I wanted to comment on our recurring problem with finding ourselves on the receiving end of scorching hot 3pt shooting game after game after game. It's not just statistical noise at this point -- it feels like this must be the scouting report now: when you play the Kings, just keep swinging it until you get an open three. We will overhelp and leave someone open. There is an adjustment there that we need to make because hoping teams will miss threes at a league-average rate sure isn't working. Or alternatively, If our defensive game plan is to force other teams to beat us with the 3 then we need a new defensive game plan.

The Kings are a very easy team to game plan against. Like you say, swing the ball constantly, run a lot of pick and rolls because they don't guard them well, and eventually you will get a wide open look from 3 or a gimme in the paint. Unfortunately it will be difficult to build a new defensive game plan. We only have one good defender in our starting lineup and he's a wing defender so he's not protecting the paint or the first line of defense against the pick and roll.

 

[captain bill]

I think he's shown that he's capable of being an iso-scorer this season when we've asked him to do that. My opinion about his inconsistency is that it's mostly a matter of mentality for him. He will always defer to our veterans until/unless someone personally tells him that we need him to go out and get buckets. He's a lot like Barnes in that way. When Barnes started taking the "too passive" criticism personally, he started looking for his shot again. And that roughly corresponds with Keegan taking over Barnes' vacated role as the guy who mostly passes unless he's wide open. What we actually need is for both guys to be aggressively opportunistic and use the threat of an off-the-dribble attack or catch and shoot three at any time to force the defense out of position. It seems like where we've struggled the most this season on offense is getting all 5 guys working together to attack the defense instead of one or two guys attacking and everyone else watching.

At the height of Barnes' disappearing act I pointed out that his numbers were still good overall he just wasn't taking shots, and had a string of games where he was taking less than 5 shots per game.

It seems obvious that him and Keegan fill similar roles in the offense, so that when one steps up the other disappears. This shouldn't be a hard problem to solve if you just say for X possession or X quarter or until the next timeout, HB takes the assertive role and Keegan stays on the perimeter as a spot-up 3 point shooter. Then switch back for another period of time. So both guys can get rest and the offense can stay unpredictable

Of course that's probably easier said than done, but to me that's the logical solution to what we're seeing

OTOH of course we could just be seeing Barnes get burn while we shop him at the deadline. But that doesn't necessarily mean he actually gets traded and we may have to figure this out with our guys as is, especially come playoff time