Can We Show Some Love for Davion?

[hrdboild]

I very rarely start a new thread but this has been bothering me all season so I'm just going to launch into it...

For a team that consistently gives up 35+ point quarters to mediocre opponents and loses a lot of games on the defensive end to have an elite man-to-man defender and play him only 12mpg is unfathomable to me. It's really the only thing I strongly disagree with Mike Brown about and it's hard to even explain it when Coach Brown came into this job with a reputation as a defense-first coach. We have seen him get results with our big minute players:

Fox has upped his level of focus and intensity on the defensive end and is currently 6th in the league in steals per game. Keegan Murray has some occasional lapses but he's improving rapidly and it's not impossible to see him reaching "stopper" status relatively soon. Sabonis is currently leading the league in defensive rebounds and while he's limited athletically compared to a lot of other centers, he's often making good reads on his rotations and he's at least in position to contest shots in the paint.

Conversely, Davion Mitchell has seen his playing time drop from 27.7 mpg in his rookie season (under Luke Walton and Alvin Gentry) to 18.1 mpg last season and now 12.1 mpg this season with a hand full of DNP-CD's to boot. On at least one occasion he was the only Kings player not to come into the game at all. I'm reading a lot of comments about his offense -- and granted, it has been a problem. I'm also reading a lot of comments about his size and this is where I just question what those fans are watching. Considering the way the game is now called, I defy anyone to find a better non-star defender who is capable of stopping dribble penetration without the benefit of any help from the officials.

Monk's emergence as a standout playmaker should make Davion's lack of shot creation skills nearly irrelevant. He needs to shoot the ball better than he has but other teams have managed to hide non-scorers in their lineups who are elite defensively. It's more a question of mindset to me. It does no good to constantly complain about the defense without making any changes. Absolutely I hope Monte is able to find at least one high level defender on the trade market. But failing that, one thing that can be done right now without needing to negotiate with other teams is to just play this guy more.

I can already hear the counter-argument (and I welcome that discussion if anyone wants to debate this) that Mitchell has looked awful in his minutes this season. At times he's looked borderline unplayable. But why? For a player who came into the league locking up ballhandlers from day one to suddenly look so passive, distracted, and incapable of a basic bounce pass -- I just feel like there has to be more to this story than a 25 year old player regressing in all aspects of the game in his third season. Just looking through the footage of Davion's defense on YouTube almost brings a tear to my eye. I feel like we already have our own Marcus Smart on the roster -- we (meaning the coaches and his teammates) just need to empower him to lead our defense instead of shoving him in a corner and pretending he doesn't exist.

 

[The_Jamal]

I mean, you kind of answered it with your posting of highlights. He's quite possibly been the worst offensive player in basketball this year. The team ORtg just falls off an absolute cliff with him in the game.

For example, with Huerter-Keegs-HB-Domas:

Fox: 312 minutes: 122.2 ORtg
111.8 DRtg

Keon: 73 minutes: 120.1 ORtg
110.7 DRtg

Davion: 69 minutes: 92.9 ORtg
109.4 DRtg

Just one data point, of course, but when you watch a game, you pretty clearly see the difference as well between these 3 guys running with the starters.

And from an individual perspective, he's heavily regressed from last year:

45.1% TS
24.5% from 3
15.2% USG
11.9% TOV
18.4% Ast
.134 FTr

ON court: 375 minutes
ORtg- 105
DRtg- 117.1
Net: -12.1

Off court: 1523 minutes
ORtg- 120.7
DRtg- 117.6
Net- : +3.1

Total net: -15.2

I mean... what's to like here? Doesn't draw fouls, can't shoot, not a playmaker. He's had games where he's been good offensively and really popped... because of how good his defense is. But he went from being a good back-up PG last year to just flat out unplayable this year.

In contrast, Keon has thrived in that role. Already pointed out how well he's doing with the starters but:

.602 TS%
38.2% from 3
13.1% USG
14.2% TOV
.205 FTr

ON court: 340 minutes
ORtg- 121.7
DRtg- 119.6
Net: +2.1

OFF court: 1558 minutes
ORtg- 116.8
DRtg- 117.0
Net: -0.2

Just really no comparison here in terms of how well we've done with Keon on the floor this year vs Davion. Add on to the fact that Keon is much more capable of flexing down to the 2 and actually being able to play with Fox gives him an added boost because of his size and length. Davion is what he is at this point; sunk cost that will likely get shipped off for a fresh start to try and rejuvenate his career. Keon took his job.

 

[Turgenev]

Good post and nice to see some nuance.

Davion has one elite skill in that he is a great point of attack defender, which is most effective against ball dominant guards. I feel like some of that is lost when we play a team that moves the ball well or that plays through a bigger wing/ forward/ centre. Although his strength can sometimes be effective against some bigger players.

I also think it would be really hard for some players, like Davion, to contribute to the best of their ability when they don't know if they will play game to game, they are not likely to get many consecutive minutes within a game, or don't have a clear role when they are out there. For this reason I don't think the on/ off numbers are a fair reflection of what Davion offers or his ability - but having said that this seems to be the role that the Kings will play him in.

 

[The_Jamal]

Good post and nice to see some nuance.

Davion has one elite skill in that he is a great point of attack defender, which is most effective against ball dominant guards. I feel like some of that is lost when we play a team that moves the ball well or that plays through a bigger wing/ forward/ centre. Although his strength can sometimes be effective against some bigger players.

I also think it would be really hard for some players, like Davion, to contribute to the best of their ability when they don't know if they will play game to game, they are not likely to get many consecutive minutes within a game, or don't have a clear role when they are out there. For this reason I don't think the on/ off numbers are a fair reflection of what Davion offers or his ability - but having said that this seems to be the role that the Kings will play him in.

I don't think this is true at all. We aren't a bad team anymore and there's only 4 guys on this team who have "earned" the right to play through a bad game; Fox/Domas/Monk/Keegs. We're on pace again for a 48-50 win season. If you're a role guy, you better perform or someone else behind you will. And Davion has had his chances to really nail down the back-up PG role, mutliple times, this year and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

Davion has also struggled with being a sub for most of his career, something he's had 3 years to adjust to. He's basically always looked better when he gets a starter minutes role. But that's on him to be able to make that adjustment where he's effective in 12-18 MPG rather than 28+.

I think best case for him is a bad team trades for him and just throws him out there for 28+ MPG. He needs to be in a spot that doesn't necessarily care about wins this year and is just looking for development. He has an elite NBA skill, so he should find an opportunity, but he has to find something offensively to justify leaving him on the floor.

 

[dude12]

If you watch games, and not end of contest garbage time, teams absolutely ignore him offensively to sag into the paint where it affects are 2 best players. Love the kid but he has to become a knock down shooter……at least with us. I do think there is a better fit for him elsewhere, somewhere. The data shows his effect on our Offense and his defense is not enough to overcome this…..data backs it up

 

[hrdboild]

I mean, you kind of answered it with your posting of highlights. He's quite possibly been the worst offensive player in basketball this year. The team ORtg just falls off an absolute cliff with him in the game.

For example, with Huerter-Keegs-HB-Domas:

Fox: 312 minutes: 122.2 ORtg
111.8 DRtg

Keon: 73 minutes: 120.1 ORtg
110.7 DRtg

Davion: 69 minutes: 92.9 ORtg
109.4 DRtg

Just one data point, of course, but when you watch a game, you pretty clearly see the difference as well between these 3 guys running with the starters.

And from an individual perspective, he's heavily regressed from last year:

45.1% TS
24.5% from 3
15.2% USG
11.9% TOV
18.4% Ast
.134 FTr

ON court: 375 minutes
ORtg- 105
DRtg- 117.1
Net: -12.1

Off court: 1523 minutes
ORtg- 120.7
DRtg- 117.6
Net- : +3.1

Total net: -15.2

I mean... what's to like here? Doesn't draw fouls, can't shoot, not a playmaker. He's had games where he's been good offensively and really popped... because of how good his defense is. But he went from being a good back-up PG last year to just flat out unplayable this year.

In contrast, Keon has thrived in that role. Already pointed out how well he's doing with the starters but:

.602 TS%
38.2% from 3
13.1% USG
14.2% TOV
.205 FTr

ON court: 340 minutes
ORtg- 121.7
DRtg- 119.6
Net: +2.1

OFF court: 1558 minutes
ORtg- 116.8
DRtg- 117.0
Net: -0.2

Just really no comparison here in terms of how well we've done with Keon on the floor this year vs Davion. Add on to the fact that Keon is much more capable of flexing down to the 2 and actually being able to play with Fox gives him an added boost because of his size and length. Davion is what he is at this point; sunk cost that will likely get shipped off for a fresh start to try and rejuvenate his career. Keon took his job.

But Keon and Davion are very different players on the defensive end as well. I don't really understand why we, as basketball fans, will break down offense skill by skill into ball-handling, playmaking, screen-setting, shooting, post footwork, off ball movement, etc. -- and then there's just "Good Defense / Bad Defense". I understand why Keon has taken Davion's minutes on offense but that doesn't really speak to my point which is that nobody else on this team can do what Davion does on defense. Maybe 3 guys can in the whole NBA. Why are we not taking advantage of that?

I don't think this is true at all. We aren't a bad team anymore and there's only 4 guys on this team who have "earned" the right to play through a bad game; Fox/Domas/Monk/Keegs. We're on pace again for a 48-50 win season. If you're a role guy, you better perform or someone else behind you will. And Davion has had his chances to really nail down the back-up PG role, mutliple times, this year and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

Davion has also struggled with being a sub for most of his career, something he's had 3 years to adjust to. He's basically always looked better when he gets a starter minutes role. But that's on him to be able to make that adjustment where he's effective in 12-18 MPG rather than 28+.

I think best case for him is a bad team trades for him and just throws him out there for 28+ MPG. He needs to be in a spot that doesn't necessarily care about wins this year and is just looking for development. He has an elite NBA skill, so he should find an opportunity, but he has to find something offensively to justify leaving him on the floor.

Once again -- the point I'm trying to make here (and I do appreciate your willingness to engage in a back and forth conversation about it) is that we have plenty of offense already just with Sabonis, Fox, Murray, and Monk. We don't need the other 5 players in the rotation to be better than average offensively. And looking at the entirety of Davion's career so far, I think he could/should be average on offense with a clearer role that accounts for his strengths and weaknesses. He's not going to sub in and replicate what Fox does -- but isn't that what we're already getting with Monk? Just as I think we'd be better served trading Huerter for a more defensive-minded 2 guard, even if we'd be losing some floor spacing in the equation -- I think we should be utilizing Davion more as a stopper and coach up what's not working with him on offense.

If you watch games, and not end of contest garbage time, teams absolutely ignore him offensively to sag into the paint where it affects are 2 best players. Love the kid but he has to become a knock down shooter……at least with us. I do think there is a better fit for him elsewhere, somewhere. The data shows his effect on our Offense and his defense is not enough to overcome this…..data backs it up

Data has it's limitations. I'm not talking about garbage time -- included in those videos is ample evidence that Davion Mitchell can and does have a level of impact on defense that is commensurate to guys like Fox and Sabonis on offense. If we're talking about a Kings team which is already elite on defense than by all means let's trade Davion and try to get someone who fills a need. But that's not the situation we find ourselves in. Over and over again we're losing games because our opponent is feeling no resistance, getting all the open shots they want, and getting into a shooting groove that our regular rotation players are incapable of stopping. In that context, surely we can live with some peaks and valleys on offense throughout the game if it means getting an elite defender on the floor long enough to pick up some of the slack that our mostly scoring-oriented role players are just not capable of handling. In our worst losses our rotation guys are all bricking everything in sight anyway. We're not digging ourselves out of holes with our offense this season -- can't we try another tactic instead?

 

[Turgenev]

I don't think this is true at all. We aren't a bad team anymore and there's only 4 guys on this team who have "earned" the right to play through a bad game; Fox/Domas/Monk/Keegs. We're on pace again for a 48-50 win season. If you're a role guy, you better perform or someone else behind you will. And Davion has had his chances to really nail down the back-up PG role, mutliple times, this year and he just hasn't lived up to that expectation.

Hang on. I said I think it would be tough for some players to perform with inconsistent game time, minutes only in short spurts, and a lack of a key role when on the court. And you said you don't think it's true because they have to perform in those circumstances? The NBA might be unforgiving - but I don't see how that makes my point untrue. It would still be difficult for some players to perform well - and consistently well - with limited and inconsistent usage. What am I missing?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think the Kings putting him on the trading block, tells us where they stand. I'm sure they've analyzed the advanced analytics up and down, along with discussions with Brown.

It looks like they decided that it wasn't working and would prefer to move on. I'll be rooting for him and will be pleasantly surprised if he carves out an NBA rotation spot with someone.

We had a guy last season who I considered a very good wing defender in Okpala, who Brown was also very high on....and he wasn't able to stick. We have another one now in Kessler Edwards who is not playing. Today's NBA game is tough for some of the defensive specialists

 

[The_Jamal]

Hang on. I said I think it would be tough for some players to perform with inconsistent game time, minutes only in short spurts, and a lack of a key role when on the court. And you said you don't think it's true because they have to perform in those circumstances? The NBA might be unforgiving - but I don't see how that makes my point untrue. It would still be difficult for some players to perform well - and consistently well - with limited and inconsistent usage. What am I missing?

I mean, I think that's a given. For a lot of these guys, they're "the man" their entire careers until they get to the NBA. They're 35+ MPG dudes who almost always are the lead option of their offense. And there's certainly an adjustment period to where virtually everyone who comes into the league starts out as a role player and like a 4th/5th option on the pecking order.

In Davion's case, for his entire 3 year career, he's looked much better as a starter with a 25+ MPG workload (mostly) than he has off the bench. That's a tough transition, absolutely, but his reality is he's fighting to be a back-up PG in this league. He has to be able to productive in 12-15 MPG, otherwise he's not going to see the floor. And he's a little limited on our team because our franchise player is at his position and he's just a little small to get big minutes defending 2's, even though I think he can do that.

Keon, in contrast, I think is showing exactly how to be impactful in short-spurt and inconsistent playing time. He moves the ball on offense, hits a few open jumpers and plays suffocating help D and passing lanes with his hands. He's also rated as one of the best PoA defenders by the D-LeBRON stat

https://twitter.com/statuses/1747076204190920808

 

[The_Jamal]

But Keon and Davion are very different players on the defensive end as well. I don't really understand why we, as basketball fans, will break down offense skill by skill into ball-handling, playmaking, screen-setting, shooting, post footwork, off ball movement, etc. -- and then there's just "Good Defense / Bad Defense". I understand why Keon has taken Davion's minutes on offense but that doesn't really speak to my point which is that nobody else on this team can do what Davion does on defense. Maybe 3 guys can in the whole NBA. Why are we not taking advantage of that?



Once again -- the point I'm trying to make here (and I do appreciate your willingness to engage in a back and forth conversation about it) is that we have plenty of offense already just with Sabonis, Fox, Murray, and Monk. We don't need the other 5 players in the rotation to be better than average offensively. And looking at the entirety of Davion's career so far, I think he could/should be average on offense with a clearer role that accounts for his strengths and weaknesses. He's not going to sub in and replicate what Fox does -- but isn't that what we're already getting with Monk? Just as I think we'd be better served trading Huerter for a more defensive-minded 2 guard, even if we'd be losing some floor spacing in the equation -- I think we should be utilizing Davion more as a stopper and coach up what's not working with him on offense.



Data has it's limitations. I'm not talking about garbage time -- included in those videos is ample evidence that Davion Mitchell can and does have a level of impact on defense that is commensurate to guys like Fox and Sabonis on offense. If we're talking about a Kings team which is already elite on defense than by all means let's trade Davion and try to get someone who fills a need. But that's not the situation we find ourselves in. Over and over again we're losing games because our opponent is feeling no resistance, getting all the open shots they want, and getting into a shooting groove that our regular rotation players are incapable of stopping. In that context, surely we can live with some peaks and valleys on offense throughout the game if it means getting an elite defender on the floor long enough to pick up some of the slack that our mostly scoring-oriented role players are just not capable of handling. In our worst losses our rotation guys are all bricking everything in sight anyway. We're not digging ourselves out of holes with our offense this season -- can't we try another tactic instead?

So here's the problem. I absolutely agree and I've been clamoring for any sort of defensive help over swinging for a star add like a Beal/LaVine/Siakam, etc. But Davion's issue is he's not even close to passable offensively this season. His numbers rate him out as one of the worst offensive players in the league this year. Everything reflects that; watching him, his numbers, his effectiveness in certain lineups. And especially as we've seen some real regression from HB and Huerter this season, we just don't have the same firepower as last year to play 4on5 offensively. I don't think any team can do that anymore.

Davion has to find SOMETHING on offense that keeps him on the floor. Elite at finishing at the rim/drawing fouls. 38%+ from 3. Elite playmaking Ast/TO ratio. Something that can justify it, because there's just nothing right now. And I do think his defense has taken a little step back this season; it's not as totally suffocating as it's been the last 2 years. Which matters a ton when you're shooting 24% from 3 and a 46% TS.

 

[hrdboild]

So here's the problem. I absolutely agree and I've been clamoring for any sort of defensive help over swinging for a star add like a Beal/LaVine/Siakam, etc. But Davion's issue is he's not even close to passable offensively this season. His numbers rate him out as one of the worst offensive players in the league this year. Everything reflects that; watching him, his numbers, his effectiveness in certain lineups. And especially as we've seen some real regression from HB and Huerter this season, we just don't have the same firepower as last year to play 4on5 offensively. I don't think any team can do that anymore.

Davion has to find SOMETHING on offense that keeps him on the floor. Elite at finishing at the rim/drawing fouls. 38%+ from 3. Elite playmaking Ast/TO ratio. Something that can justify it, because there's just nothing right now. And I do think his defense has taken a little step back this season; it's not as totally suffocating as it's been the last 2 years. Which matters a ton when you're shooting 24% from 3 and a 46% TS.

I know what the numbers say but you're also neglecting that this season's sample size is 374 minutes. Marcus Smart spent his first 4 seasons in the NBA (7,488 minutes) being as much of an offensive non-entity as Davion is now. He's since made 3 Defensive First Teams and won a DPOY award. Andrew Wiggins has been arguably even worse for 917 minutes this season but some fans would still be willing to take a chance on him as a reclamation project, even more so if he only made the $5 million a year that Davion is making...

But forget the numbers for a minute. Davion costs us nothing to acquire. His defense is a known quantity and his offense could be passable if he's not expected to create off the dribble and/or be exclusively a catch and shoot threat. He didn't lead the NCAA in scoring like Keegan did nor is he a proven shooter like K'Von. He's not just going to stumble into an offensive role that works. That's why we have a coaching staff. Give him a more realistic role in the offense cutting toward the basket off of Monk and kicking out to guys like Huerter, Barnes, and Vezenkov. His defense is good enough to justify putting that level of effort into getting his offense straightened out.

I just can't understand why he's basically been dropped from the rotation entirely when he's a former 9th overall pick in his third season who's already been, for most of the past 2 plus years, the best individual defender on a team that desperately needs plus defenders. Are we really that obsessed with offensive efficiency? If that's the case maybe we deserve to be a bad defensive team.

 

[kingsboi]

I for one love me some Davion and I too question why he is getting zero playing time. Sure, offensively he isn't providing much of anything but that's not why he was drafted 9th by Monte. It's no wonder he hasn't been productive when mentally you know that you won't get regular rotation minutes. I'm not sure how much longer Davion will remain a King but if he is here past the deadline, I'd like Brown to give him regular rotation minutes and just let him go and hound other guards for a couple of minutes to give Fox a breather. Any additional offense is a bonus.

 

[The_Jamal]

I know what the numbers say but you're also neglecting that this season's sample size is 374 minutes. Marcus Smart spent his first 4 seasons in the NBA (7,488 minutes) being as much of an offensive non-entity as Davion is now. He's since made 3 Defensive First Teams and won a DPOY award. Andrew Wiggins has been arguably even worse for 917 minutes this season but some fans would still be willing to take a chance on him as a reclamation project, even more so if he only made the $5 million a year that Davion is making...

But forget the numbers for a minute. Davion costs us nothing to acquire. His defense is a known quantity and his offense could be passable if he's not expected to create off the dribble and/or be exclusively a catch and shoot threat. He didn't lead the NCAA in scoring like Keegan did nor is he a proven shooter like K'Von. He's not just going to stumble into an offensive role that works. That's why we have a coaching staff. Give him a more realistic role in the offense cutting toward the basket off of Monk and kicking out to guys like Huerter, Barnes, and Vezenkov. His defense is good enough to justify putting that level of effort into getting his offense straightened out.

I just can't understand why he's basically been dropped from the rotation entirely when he's a former 9th overall pick in his third season who's already been, for most of the past 2 plus years, the best individual defender on a team that desperately needs plus defenders. Are we really that obsessed with offensive efficiency? If that's the case maybe we deserve to be a bad defensive team.

I mean, Smart is also one of the most versatile defensive unicorns the NBA has ever seen with his ability to defend 1-4. Davion's equation drastically changes if he could defend wings.

Comes down to he's been 1. Horrible this year, 2. Plays the same position as our franchise player and isn't a fit with him to play next to him and 3. Is getting outplayed by Keon.

 

[Gilles]

I don't like FTRate as it's currently calculated as one would rarely get to the line shooting only 3s. I much rather use FTattempted/2pFGattempted and Smart is at 54% for his career while Davion is at 17%. Getting to the line is the only way to offset lack of outside shooting. And you obviously draw fouls turning more fouls on your teammates into FTs, and you also force the other team to play more tentatively on defense.

 

[GWD]

I don't like FTRate as it's currently calculated as one would rarely get to the line shooting only 3s. I much rather use FTattempted/2pFGattempted and Smart is at 54% for his career while Davion is at 17%. Getting to the line is the only way to offset lack of outside shooting. And you obviously draw fouls turning more fouls on your teammates into FTs, and you also force the other team to play more tentatively on defense.

Logical, except for the fact that the Kings can't draw fouls unless blood, broken limbs, or missing teeth are involved.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I renamed the thread as "Appreciation Threads" typically happen when a player is traded - I've false alarmed on "wait, is there news?!?!" twice now based on the thread title!

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1747295897791218051

Woof. Not a great look for benching Huerter and Duarte showing up on this list. But another data point showing Davion's poor offense this season.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1747295897791218051

Woof. Not a great look for benching Huerter and Duarte showing up on this list. But another data point showing Davion's poor offense this season.

"Only a little worse than Scoot Henderson!"

 

[hrdboild]

I renamed the thread as "Appreciation Threads" typically happen when a player is traded - I've false alarmed on "wait, is there news?!?!" twice now based on the thread title!

I mean... I get it. But can't we appreciate players who are still on the team? I knew the debate part was going to happen regardless and it's telling that most of the responses here have been "yeah but what about his offense?" I love watching great defenders and Davion is one of the best guys in the league to watch on defense. It's disappointing to me how little appreciation he gets from this fanbase for that.

https://twitter.com/statuses/1747295897791218051

Woof. Not a great look for benching Huerter and Duarte showing up on this list. But another data point showing Davion's poor offense this season.

It should be noted that Jared Vanderbilt also shows up on that list of worst offensive performers this season and he's been one of Kingfans' biggest trade targets for the past couple years. Most elite defenders (Smart, Thybulle, Vanderbilt, Caruso) are pretty bad on offense. For most teams in the league that's considered an acceptable compromise to make.

Furthermore, there's a huge problem with all defensive metrics because they rely on measurable data. Steals and blocks, rebounds, deflections, opponent shooting percentage, etc. Others (on/off, DWS) are abstractions of team defensive performance. Most of what you see from Davion in his defensive clips is not measurable. Is there a stat for cutting off dribble penetration and forcing a pass? Is there a stat for funneling a ballhandler into the help defender?

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I mean... I get it. But can't we appreciate players who are still on the team? I knew the debate part was going to happen regardless and it's telling that most of the responses here have been "yeah but what about his offense?" I love watching great defenders and Davion is one of the best guys in the league to watch on defense. It's disappointing to me how little appreciation he gets from this fanbase for that.

I get it. I'm totally willing to rename the thread to whatever you think is appropriate as long as we skip the specific vocabulary of "appreciate" in the thread title, which by tradition on this board strongly implies that the player has just been traded. I imagine that "Davion Mitchell Love Thread" might overstate your feelings too much so I won't go there unless that's what you want. Just give me a suggestion.

 

[The_Jamal]

I mean... I get it. But can't we appreciate players who are still on the team? I knew the debate part was going to happen regardless and it's telling that most of the responses here have been "yeah but what about his offense?" I love watching great defenders and Davion is one of the best guys in the league to watch on defense. It's disappointing to me how little appreciation he gets from this fanbase for that.



It should be noted that Jared Vanderbilt also shows up on that list of worst offensive performers this season and he's been one of Kingfans' biggest trade targets for the past couple years. Most elite defenders (Smart, Thybulle, Vanderbilt, Caruso) are pretty bad on offense. For most teams in the league that's considered an acceptable compromise to make.

Furthermore, there's a huge problem with all defensive metrics because they rely on measurable data. Steals and blocks, rebounds, deflections, opponent shooting percentage, etc. Others (on/off, DWS) are abstractions of team defensive performance. Most of what you see from Davion in his defensive clips is not measurable. Is there a stat for cutting off dribble penetration and forcing a pass? Is there a stat for funneling a ballhandler into the help defender?

But it's a matter of WHERE Vandy is defending and who he can share the floor with. Putting a small/poor shooting guard next to Fox and Domas just isn't smart team construction. But if I put a defensive wing superstar like Vandy on the floor, well, you probably live with the offense because he's defending the most important spots on the floor and gives weakside rim protection, one of Domas's weaknesses. Vandy is also in about the worst possible situation for him to succeed because the Lakers are the worst spacing team in the NBA. I'd feel much more confident we could put enough spacing around him for him to be viable here and in the right role offensively (dunker spot).

But even then, the problem is Davion is actively hurting the team on offense, so any defensive contribution he makes, is null and void because he gives it right back offensively.

I think he still has potential, but it's just not with us. We have too many barriers for him to get a real opportunity here. A big part of the thesis behind Keon has someone to invest time into is he CAN play next to Fox or Monk. Him having wing size does matter, even if it's just defending bigger guards like an SGA or Giddey.

 

[twslam07]

I get it. I'm totally willing to rename the thread to whatever you think is appropriate as long as we skip the specific vocabulary of "appreciate" in the thread title, which by tradition on this board strongly implies that the player has just been traded. I imagine that "Davion Mitchell Love Thread" might overstate your feelings too much so I won't go there unless that's what you want. Just give me a suggestion.

Maybe a “Can We Show Some Love for Davion?” thread

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Maybe a “Can We Show Some Love for Davion?” thread

Would work for me, but I'll give the OP @hrdboild a chance to weigh in.

 

[sactowndog]

But it's a matter of WHERE Vandy is defending and who he can share the floor with. Putting a small/poor shooting guard next to Fox and Domas just isn't smart team construction. But if I put a defensive wing superstar like Vandy on the floor, well, you probably live with the offense because he's defending the most important spots on the floor and gives weakside rim protection, one of Domas's weaknesses.

But even then, the problem is Davion is actively hurting the team on offense, so any defensive contribution he makes, is null and void because he gives it right back offensively.

I think he still has potential, but it's just not with us. We have too many barriers for him to get a real opportunity here. A big part of the thesis behind Keon has someone to invest time into is he CAN play next to Fox or Monk. Him having wing size does matter, even if it's just defending bigger guards like an SGA or Giddey.

Can we just admit Davion is an example of taking the best player available theory to its absurd extreme?

Remember at the time we drafted Davion we had both Fox and Haliburton. If you go best player available that player has to have some chance of being better. Being better than two potential all NBA players was unlikely. Davion never got the chance to develop.

taking Davion in that spot was simply a horrible horrible draft pick.

 

[The_Jamal]

Can we just admit Davion is an example of taking the best player available theory to its absurd extreme?

Remember at the time we drafted Davion we had both Fox and Haliburton. If you go best player available that player has to have some chance of being better. Being better than two potential all NBA players was unlikely. Davion never got the chance to develop.

taking Davion in that spot was simply a horrible horrible draft pick.

Or you just better be right he's a smash and you can trade him later. I still think you have to slam BPA, especially if your franchise is an asset accumulation mode (remember, Fox hadn't started fully breaking out yet as a superstar and Hali was still kind of a "super role player") after that first season. But the issue with Davion that's always lingered is he just never really had starter upside with us, even if he was good, just by the nature of him playing the same spot as Fox with not being versatile enough to fully move over to the 2.

We have a chance to correct the mistake and invest time into Keon though. In terms of a perimeter defender with size, he's pretty much the exact archetype that we're looking for.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Can we just admit Davion is an example of taking the best player available theory to its absurd extreme?

Remember at the time we drafted Davion we had both Fox and Haliburton. If you go best player available that player has to have some chance of being better. Being better than two potential all NBA players was unlikely. Davion never got the chance to develop.

taking Davion in that spot was simply a horrible horrible draft pick.

Moody was the pick that made the most sense for this team at the time...and still would now

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Can we just admit Davion is an example of taking the best player available theory to its absurd extreme?

Remember at the time we drafted Davion we had both Fox and Haliburton. If you go best player available that player has to have some chance of being better. Being better than two potential all NBA players was unlikely. Davion never got the chance to develop.

taking Davion in that spot was simply a horrible horrible draft pick.

In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

In retrospect, it's now clear that Davion was NOT the best player available. So technically the Davion pick doesn't shed any light at all on the Taking The BPA Theory. Right now we would have to guess the BPA was either Sengun, Trey Murphy, or second rounder Herb Jones. Failure to identify BPA is what happened, and that's a different thing. Yes, a front office mistake, but a different type of mistake.

Perhaps the best test case of the Taking The BPA Theory the Kings have recently seen was Haliburton. And that worked out really well, though we had to trade him for the full benefit to come through. Skipping Hali to take say Nesmith or Poku because we already had Fox would have been a missed opportunity of epic proportions.

Taking a third point guard was the mistake

 

[iowamcnabb]

I would take a victory lap as one of the Sengun bros but he either would have been flipped when we got Domas or never would have Sabonis to begin with.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Taking a third point guard was the mistake

I’m sure Monte knew they would only have 2 in short order. The bigger question to me is should a guy who has no path to start be taken with a top ten pick. Having said that, Monte has shown that he plans to mostly build through trades and that he largely sees draft picks outside of the top of the draft as ancillary pieces.