[Game] Washington Wizards @ Sacramento Kings, 12/18/2023, 7:00pm PST/10:00pm EST

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Nah, you can kill clock on offense and still give effort on defense. There's never a good reason to check out defensively, and that is independent of whether you continue to try to score or not.
Strategically using the clock is not going easy, that's still trying to win - appropriate with maybe 5 or less minutes. But the number one reason teams lose big leads is because they stop doing the things that got them the lead.

Katie made that comment in third quarter. They should have been trying to get the lead up to 40.

Agree about the defense.
 
I have wondered at times this season if there's as much of a gap between Sabonis and Jokic as the counting stats (and MVP awards) seem to indicate. Or more to the point, if Sabonis were on a team where he was the unquestioned top dog and was allowed to have a 31.8% USG rate and 19 shots per game, would he be in the MVP conversation every year too?

I don't think it matters -- we're obviously a better team with Sabonis and Fox -- that's just a very long-winded way of saying that I don't think the general NBA fandom has caught on yet how special Sabonis is. He's regarded as a pretty good player but he's actually got a higher TS% than the Joker right now by virtue of his improved three point shot and last season he led the league in rebounds outright and finished 5th in assists. He's a phenomenal big man and maybe his best quality is that he doesn't hunt attention for himself and always seems twice as happy as everyone else whenever one of his teammates makes a big play.
Jokic simply makes basketball appear easy. Sabonis is underrated, as is everything Kings, but there's a difference between being the MVP and being a superstar. Sabonis doesn't need to beat Jokic, though I don't doubt he could, he just needs to play his game and he'll get that respect. Either way, the Kings can beat anybody in a 7 game series. They just have to play their game.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Strategically using the clock is not going easy, that's still trying to win - appropriate with maybe 5 or less minutes. But the number one reason teams lose big leads is because they stop doing the things that got them the lead.

Katie [sic] made that comment in third quarter. They should have been trying to get the lead up to 40.

Agree about the defense.
And she was right in the third quarter. I don't understand the objection.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
She was wrong in the third quarter. But you're a fan of feminine sports so I can see how you'd appreciate her feelings-first perspective.

Her comment wasn't about working the clock, it was about not hurting your opponents feelings.
That's not really how she meant it, but your comment about me being a fan of "feminine sports" is a giveaway for why you interpreted it that way.
 
Wizards shaved ten points off the lead with Lyles and Vezenkov in the frontcourt; who did you think was coming out?
I am sunjective , that is obvious , will not argue about that , but numbers and facts in that case are not against me :
Forth querter started at 112-91 , Vezenkov and Lyes were benched at 8:12 , while the score was 120-104.... (minus 5)
From those 13 points by wizard we had :
2 deep 3 poniteres from the center
2+1 after 1-1 with fox
2p after 1-1 with Vezenkov
3p trough Lyeles
2p after 1-1 with Monk

Meanwhile both Lyels and Vezekov had a combined 5 points , 3 boards , 1 stollen ball in attack ...
Can see how they were so poor in that 4 minutes that they deserved to be frozen till the end of the game , that is all
 
BUT win is win , does not matter who played more and who less :)
I hope they will be rested and ready for the next game , will be a huge one !
I hope the B2B of Boston gives as and advantage and we take a huge Win in two days as well
LETS GO KINGS !!!
 
I have wondered at times this season if there's as much of a gap between Sabonis and Jokic as the counting stats (and MVP awards) seem to indicate. Or more to the point, if Sabonis were on a team where he was the unquestioned top dog and was allowed to have a 31.8% USG rate and 19 shots per game, would he be in the MVP conversation every year too?

I don't think it matters -- we're obviously a better team with Sabonis and Fox -- that's just a very long-winded way of saying that I don't think the general NBA fandom has caught on yet how special Sabonis is. He's regarded as a pretty good player but he's actually got a higher TS% than the Joker right now by virtue of his improved three point shot and last season he led the league in rebounds outright and finished 5th in assists. He's a phenomenal big man and maybe his best quality is that he doesn't hunt attention for himself and always seems twice as happy as everyone else whenever one of his teammates makes a big play.
Domas is the biggest cheerleader on and off the court for his teammates, that's for sure. It surprises me, that he wouldn't get bullied although he's not that big and long.
 
Looks like we're settling on this Fox-Monk-Sasha-HB-Lyles 2nd unit. I freaking love it.

We've gotten a bit under 4 minutes of that lineup so far this season (https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/t...ID=1610612758&dir=D&slug=traditional&sort=MIN)

Markdown (GitHub flavored):
|TEAM|GP  |MIN |PTS |FGM |FGA |FG% |3PM |3PA |3P% |FTM |FTA |FT% |OREB|DREB|REB |AST |TOV |STL |BLK |BLKA|PF  |PFD |+/- |
|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|---:|
| SAC|   4| 3.4| 8.8|   3| 7.3|41.4| 1.3|   4|31.3| 1.5| 2.5|  60|   1|   3|   4|   1|   1|   0|   0| 0.8| 1.3| 2.5| 0.8|
I don't think the coaching staff is settling at this point, you're basically talking about a break-even lineup
 
I don't think Domas can ever sustain a Jokic level scoring workload.. Which.. is fine! Jokic is a top 20 player if he retired tomorrow. I think a better historical context for Domas is actually our very own C-Webb and players in that range. Domas being a better passer, C-Webb a better scorer.
I'm inclined to agree, but people forget what Nikola Jokic was like before Mike Malone leaned on him to take greater initiative as a scorer. His numbers were very Sabonis-esque. Jokic just didn't have the temperament to take on that kind of scoring workload... until he did. So part of me does wonder what Domas' career trajectory would look like if Mike Brown put the pressure on him to be more selfish as a scorer. Would there be more games like last night? Probably. Would he be a favorite to win the MVP every season? Probably not, but I don't think there's quite as much daylight between Jokic and Sabonis as many think.
 
My favorite part of the game was the look on Brown's face after Keegan scored on that post up.

Time to get on youtube coach.
My favourite part of the game was Sasha’s hustle and Barnes hitting his shots in a variety of ways. However not much in the rebound or assist department.
I‘d say he’d be better off the bench but as long as Sasha and Lyes get their minute, guess it doesn’t really matter who starts.
Kuzma actually had good numbers and looked bigger than I remember, but still not sure about him as a good team player.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
The game was pretty typical: Good team meets bad team; good team plays down to bad team's level for a while, playing No-D; good team rectifies themselves and wins the game.

But there were some new things in this game. I learned that Keegan and Kuzma are guards. Who knew? It took Kayte's years of playing in the women's league to make the discovery. And here's another thing I learned. After the amazing historic shooting performance of Keegan I kept ruminating and fantasizing how great Keegan could become. After all, at age 23 he did something no other King had ever done. He did something that nobody of his age in the NBA had ever done. And then Rope-a-Dope asked Kayte this question: Do you think that Keegan could aspire to one day be as good as Kyle Kuzma? Even Kayte, who previously acknowledged they both played the guard position, was a little taken aback. After a pause to regain her composure, Kayte gently countered Rope-a-Dope's suggestion of the Kuzma ceiling for Keegan Murray, saying in five years Keegan would be much better than Kuzma. Wheeeew! What a relief! Up until then I was worried about whether Keegan's ceiling would be only as high as a single story bungalow. Now, with Kayte's assurance I can wait five years to see Murray being much better than the great Kyle Kuzma.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
I'm inclined to agree, but people forget what Nikola Jokic was like before Mike Malone leaned on him to take greater initiative as a scorer. His numbers were very Sabonis-esque. Jokic just didn't have the temperament to take on that kind of scoring workload... until he did. So part of me does wonder what Domas' career trajectory would look like if Mike Brown put the pressure on him to be more selfish as a scorer. Would there be more games like last night? Probably. Would he be a favorite to win the MVP every season? Probably not, but I don't think there's quite as much daylight between Jokic and Sabonis as many think.
A very sensible reply, thank you! We're basically only talking about a difference of 7-8 points and 2-3 assists per game separating Jokic and Sabonis statistically which I contend has more to do with volume and opportunity than capability or mindset. Though I will concede that the jump from 19-20 ppg to 27-30 ppg is often one of the most difficult leaps for players to make in the NBA because it requires a whole other level of consistency. You only get to have off-nights once every month or so if you're going to be your team's primary scorer. Fox has made that leap this year and Domas struggled a bit to carry the load without Fox early on but he's often been a slow starter so I'm not reading much into that.

Whether we want to admit it or not, actually winning an MVP award is generally more about "style points" and team success than production. That's what separates the top guy from the runners up. Whether Sabonis feels like an MVP level player is subjective and part of my point in bringing up the Jokic comparison was to highlight that when you take style points and subjectivity out of it, his production level is right up there with the other elite bigs in the league -- if not in a per game basis than at least at a similar rate commensurate to his relative usage.
 
From what I have seen so far , Sabonis is not that kind of player who gives a F**** for individual trophies, he is about the team and that is actually very good , a top pretender must have one real MVP candidate and few more “all star level” players , because when you have bigger personal ambitions that hurts the team …
This is also the main reason I don’t think Kings needs Levine at that point …. Much better for the chemistry in the team is monk to get the better part of the minute and Huerter less
 
A very sensible reply, thank you! We're basically only talking about a difference of 7-8 points and 2-3 assists per game separating Jokic and Sabonis statistically which I contend has more to do with volume and opportunity than capability or mindset. Though I will concede that the jump from 19-20 ppg to 27-30 ppg is often one of the most difficult leaps for players to make in the NBA because it requires a whole other level of consistency. You only get to have off-nights once every month or so if you're going to be your team's primary scorer. Fox has made that leap this year and Domas struggled a bit to carry the load without Fox early on but he's often been a slow starter so I'm not reading much into that.

Whether we want to admit it or not, actually winning an MVP award is generally more about "style points" and team success than production. That's what separates the top guy from the runners up. Whether Sabonis feels like an MVP level player is subjective and part of my point in bringing up the Jokic comparison was to highlight that when you take style points and subjectivity out of it, his production level is right up there with the other elite bigs in the league -- if not in a per game basis than at least at a similar rate commensurate to his relative usage.
I mean, that's the difference between a star level talent and an MVP level talent. While I do agree with your position that Domas is underrated in his excellence, and that he's closer in talent level to Nikola Jokic than many observers may think, I also don't really see an MVP in waiting when I watch Domas play. Somebody mentioned earlier that Jokic makes the game look so easy. This is eye test stuff, but when you watch Jokic put up 30/15/10 on any given night, it usually doesn't seem like he had to sweat that much to do it. The guy is an absolute savant. He doesn't even want to score all that much, but seems to do so with ease because his team needs him to be that guy. Sabonis, on the other hand, really has to fight out there for every single point.

Again, this is eye test stuff, but I rarely get the sense that scoring comes easy for Domas. He bullies his way to the rim. He gets clobbered. He gets smacked around. The ball bounces all over and hangs on the rim before it goes in. If he's fouled, he's not very consistent from the line. He scores ugly. And style points aside, it would be awfully difficult for a player like Sabonis to make the kind of scoring leap you're talking about because he just has to work so damn hard at it already. That said, I've been a big proponent of Domas taking a couple more three's per game, because that's one area where the scoring seems to come easy for him. He's getting comfortable with that shot. Most of the time, it looks smooth and effortless. If he can hit a couple three's per game at a 38% clip, that's gonna go a long way toward making his life a little less red-faced from getting brutalized in the paint so frequently.
 
I mean, that's the difference between a star level talent and an MVP level talent. While I do agree with your position that Domas is underrated in his excellence, and that he's closer in talent level to Nikola Jokic than many observers may think, I also don't really see an MVP in waiting when I watch Domas play. Somebody mentioned earlier that Jokic makes the game look so easy. This is eye test stuff, but when you watch Jokic put up 30/15/10 on any given night, it usually doesn't seem like he had to sweat that much to do it. The guy is an absolute savant. He doesn't even want to score all that much, but seems to do so with ease because his team needs him to be that guy. Sabonis, on the other hand, really has to fight out there for every single point.

Again, this is eye test stuff, but I rarely get the sense that scoring comes easy for Domas. He bullies his way to the rim. He gets clobbered. He gets smacked around. The ball bounces all over and hangs on the rim before it goes in. If he's fouled, he's not very consistent from the line. He scores ugly. And style points aside, it would be awfully difficult for a player like Sabonis to make the kind of scoring leap you're talking about because he just has to work so damn hard at it already. That said, I've been a big proponent of Domas taking a couple more three's per game, because that's one area where the scoring seems to come easy for him. He's getting comfortable with that shot. Most of the time, it looks smooth and effortless. If he can hit a couple three's per game at a 38% clip, that's gonna go a long way toward making his life a little less red-faced from getting brutalized in the paint so frequently.
I agree here. Jokic just has so much more in his bag and is a much different shooter. His unorthodox high release allows him to shoot wherever and whenever he wants. Half the time he's completely off balance as well. The dude is insane. I'm just glad we have a guy who is even half as good as he is.

I don't want Sabonis taking anything other than wide open shots from 3 but I do think the availability to at least average an extra shot from beyond the arc is easily done starting whenever he wants to do it. If he's shooting 40% on wide open 3s, then just take them when they're given to you because it's more than likely going to be better than whatever other shot is garnered through running the offense. The only drawback could be the mental aspect. He doesn't seem to like to take them unless they're absolutely necessary. Having him shoot them when he doesn't feel comfortable doing it could drop his percentage.

Either way I'm just glad we have the guy. In X amount of years, I'm sure we'll have some standard lob catching center and we'll be wondering why we ever complained about anything that Sabonis did in his tenure here.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
Kuzma actually had good numbers and looked bigger than I remember, but still not sure about him as a good team player.
When it looked like the Kings might trade Buddy to the Lakers for Kuzma and then again last offseason when he was floated as a Kings FA target, I really tried to sell myself on him as a player. He's a better rebounder than Barnes and he offers some complimentary playmaking, but he's a relatively high volume shooter who is always around 33-34% from three. And I remember reading that the advanced metrics showed him as a sneaky good defender, but from the eye test he almost always seems very lackadaisical on that end to me.

I think pairing him with Jordan Poole just made things worse. Now you have a Washington team whose (presumably) two best players have the feel of stat padders who don't seem to impact winning.

Interestingly I didn't realize that Kuzma's deal declines while Poole's increases. It means they'll be paying the pair of them around $53M each season for the next four.
 
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