Guess as to rotation.

[Jones2006]

There's like 3 posters on this board with a weird obsession with Len. I don't get it. He's an end of the bench depth big that's useful when there's another giant on the floor. That's it.

Lol I believe you're indirectly talking about me. But apparently the playoffs didn't happen when Len had a major impact through at least the 1st 4 games of that series, evident by his +/- and the general eye test of him/Lyles/bench crew imposing their physicality and offensive execution on the Warriors consistently ... all when there was not "another giant on the floor". I just think the team would benefit from having Len in the rotation consistently this year when interior defense is an issue. I like the Noel signing because he's like a mini-Len without the physicality/screens but can switch better. The Kings need either Len or Noel to consistently back up Sabonis.

I just call out BS when I see it of people making up history when it comes to Len, as if the end of last season didn't happen (the only time he actually got run last season). You can call it a "weird obsession" - But I'm not the 1 saying totally baseless claims. If I am, please quote me.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

^. This is why Barnes will be moved to the bench and be a second or third option from the bench.

first unit is basically
Fox - 1st Option
Keegan - 2nd Option
Huerter - 3rd Option
Domas - 4th Option.

It makes zero sense having Barnes on the floor as the 5th option and focusing on defense. That role does not play to his strengths. Barnes can go get a bucket with no assistance and an ideal first, second or third option with the second unit.

^^

Excellent point about Barnes moving to the bench. And if that second unit does seize up at times... old wiley vet Barnes is there to get to the line. Plus, we now have a rim protector that can shore up the D in that second unit too. Nice little offseason if I do say so myself. Abysmal, even

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

There's like 3 posters on this board with a weird obsession with Len. I don't get it. He's an end of the bench depth big that's useful when there's another giant on the floor. That's it.

If you were wandering in the desert for forty years you'd be obsessed with water, too.

I'm speaking of course about the desert of defense in Sacramento. Very arid climate.

We got the tiniest taste of a legit big man defender, albeit an end of bencher, who also sets massive screens and doesn't have the bbiq of a turnip and we're ready to retire his number.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I mean I thought he was really good against the Warriors and I was a big fan of his when he came over when Luke Walton was the coach.

Who knows what the truth is.

Mike Brown obviously didn't like him that much last year since he was playing nothing then all of a sudden he was the backup C, contributing and playing important minutes in the playoffs.

Maybe Mike Brown doesn't even get it

If Brown didn't get it he wouldn't have been back. It seems like he bought into his role, and when the matchups are called for he'll get time. But not every game will provide that opportunity.

 

[LPKingsFan]

yeah except KZ and later Kessler were core rotation guys for much of the year and will be going forward as the 4th/5th option on offense and the primary defensive stopper.

that guy isn’t Keegan or Vezenkov or Lyles for sure….. Barnes played that role at times but those aren’t really his strengths either.

I don’t know that we can call KZ a core rotation guy. He started two (2) games to start the year. After that, he pretty much only saw double digit minutes in blowouts.

Kessler, maybe. Hard to call someone part of the core rotation when the only playoff minutes they get are in blowouts, too. He did have some games where he made some important contributions (I’m thinking the Phoenix game where he guarded Booker down the stretch) but it’s hard to turn around and then say the Kings lack someone who can guard Booker, unless I’m misunderstanding the point.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

There's like 3 posters on this board with a weird obsession with Len. I don't get it. He's an end of the bench depth big that's useful when there's another giant on the floor. That's it.

Is this the right place to speculate on rotations? ::checks title:: Yeah seems like the place.

I agree with you that Len's best role is as a 3rd big. Where we disagree, is that I don't think that we have a clear 2nd big.

We can maybe use Lyles as an additional floor spacer, but it's unorthodox, and not generally what we did last year. Who's to say that playing 5-out is going to be a key part of what we do next year? Who is going to be more situational?

Seems to me it's unsettled, and fair game for discussion. It's uncivil to say that people who hold an opposing viewpoint from yours have a "weird obsession".

 

[The_Jamal]

Lol I believe you're indirectly talking about me. But apparently the playoffs didn't happen when Len had a major impact through at least the 1st 4 games of that series, evident by his +/- and the general eye test of him/Lyles/bench crew imposing their physicality and offensive execution on the Warriors consistently ... all when there was not "another giant on the floor". I just think the team would benefit from having Len in the rotation consistently this year when interior defense is an issue. I like the Noel signing because he's like a mini-Len without the physicality/screens but can switch better. The Kings need either Len or Noel to consistently back up Sabonis.

I just call out BS when I see it of people making up history when it comes to Len, as if the end of last season didn't happen (the only time he actually got run last season). You can call it a "weird obsession" - But I'm not the 1 saying totally baseless claims. If I am, please quote me.

Then why was Len benched the 2 most important games of the year if he's this super impactful defensive savant?

Again, I ate crow for my Len take. Said he wasn't an NBA player... woops. He still has some left in the tank. But that doesn't mean we elevate guys past a role they shouldn't be playing.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Is this the right place to speculate on rotations? ::checks title:: Yeah seems like the place.

I agree with you that Len's best role is as a 3rd big. Where we disagree, is that I don't think that we have a clear 2nd big.

We can maybe use Lyles as an additional floor spacer, but it's unorthodox, and not generally what we did last year. Who's to say that playing 5-out is going to be a key part of what we do next year? Who is going to be more situational?

Seems to me it's unsettled, and fair game for discussion. It's uncivil to say that people who hold an opposing viewpoint from yours have a "weird obsession".

I see Lyles as a small ball 5 and a chance to mix it up when our primary scheme isn't working or just to offer a change of pace with the second unit. Len and Noel are both in the mold of block some shots, eat some fouls, and maybe punish a big who is beating you up. Lyles would not work in that scenario, and having two guys at the end of the bench who can provide this, hopefully always one is healthy, will really hopefully allow Domas to get some relief from the guys who were beating him up every game.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Then why was Len benched the 2 most important games of the year if he's this super impactful defensive savant?

Davion was benched for the same games, Do you not think that Davion has defensive impact?

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Davion was benched for the same games, Do you not think that Davion has defensive impact?

I think Brown screwed up here (Davion) - TD was hot and he rode him too long.

It will be interesting to see if Brown falls into that trap with any of our upgraded depth players. I don't think this will impact Noel and Len as much as potentially Duarte vs. Edwards and some combination of HB, Sasha and Lyles.

also I guess this is another reminder we probably need a 3rd PG for the back of the bench desperately.

 

[Jones2006]

Then why was Len benched the 2 most important games of the year if he's this super impactful defensive savant?

Again, I ate crow for my Len take. Said he wasn't an NBA player... woops. He still has some left in the tank. But that doesn't mean we elevate guys past a role they shouldn't be playing.

Because the Kings best (or 2nd best) player plays his position AND Brown wanted a change of pace in Game 6 to get back in the series, thus going small for a change of pace. I believe it was a questionable decision at the time but it did work at least for Game 6 & Len not playing vs. the Warriors in matchups is not necessarily a criticism of him as a player since other big bodied centers Adams, Gobert, Zubac, etc. have also been cut from rotations vs. Warriors.

Just to be clear, Len is not the perfect player. In certain contexts if an opposing team is playing 5-out, fast paced sort of ball or has insane perimeter shooting - It would be better to have Lyles in there or Noel to swtich. But during the regular season and for every other non-Warriors team, teams rarely can exploit a slower foot center (Len is also not Tacko Fall out there; he's slow but not that slow). I think Len can surely play against "big bodied" centers AND also against athletic non-shooting bigs - Those 2 account for pretty much 95% of the centers in the league. I think people are underselling Len vs. your typical athletic/active big man - These guys are typically poor offensive players so they're not gonna' go 1 on 1 vs. Len or something inside. The only way a big can consistently beat a guy like Len is on the perimeter (or just being dominant vs. everybody like Jokic).

Len, like other centers like Adams, Zubac, Valancunis can be "run off the floor" but it's rare & against backup bigs during the season Len (or Noel) could surely play impactful minutes for a team that desperately needs rim protection, defense from the slot.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

I see Lyles as a small ball 5 and a chance to mix it up when our primary scheme isn't working or just to offer a change of pace with the second unit. Len and Noel are both in the mold of block some shots, eat some fouls, and maybe punish a big who is beating you up. Lyles would not work in that scenario, and having two guys at the end of the bench who can provide this, hopefully always one is healthy, will really hopefully allow Domas to get some relief from the guys who were beating him up every game.

I think this is how it goes; though I am thinking Len(and/or)Noel will handle the job of cleaning up garbage rebounds and short tips

 

[The_Jamal]

Davion was benched for the same games, Do you not think that Davion has defensive impact?

Yeah he actually was impactful. And it's very concerning that as good as he was on Steph, Brown couldn't afford to leave him on the floor because of his offense and poor shooting.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Yeah he actually was impactful. And it's very concerning that as good as he was on Steph, Brown couldn't afford to leave him on the floor because of his offense and poor shooting.

Davion did well in the series overall. My point is that he and Len being benched in game 6 & 7 isn't indicative of poor performance, but of Brown needing to throw hail marys to try and eke out the series.

 

[sactowndog]

^^

Excellent point about Barnes moving to the bench. And if that second unit does seize up at times... old wiley vet Barnes is there to get to the line. Plus, we now have a rim protector that can shore up the D in that second unit too. Nice little offseason if I do say so myself. Abysmal, even

all depends on those dozen eggs in the Kessler basket.

 

[sactowndog]

I don’t know that we can call KZ a core rotation guy. He started two (2) games to start the year. After that, he pretty much only saw double digit minutes in blowouts.

Kessler, maybe. Hard to call someone part of the core rotation when the only playoff minutes they get are in blowouts, too. He did have some games where he made some important contributions (I’m thinking the Phoenix game where he guarded Booker down the stretch) but it’s hard to turn around and then say the Kings lack someone who can guard Booker, unless I’m misunderstanding the point.

KZ feel out of the rotation because he couldn’t keep defenses honest. Kessler didn’t play against GS because their wings were primarily C&S guys driven off Steph and using Davion as your primary defensive stopper makes sense.

KZ can guard Booker, I never said he couldn’t, but he has to be able to make teams honor him on the offensive end just like Davion.

It really isn’t that hard. Your 5th option on offense should be either your 1st or 2nd option on defense and must be a plus defender. Other than Kessler, we don’t have that guy on our team. And Kessler and Davion have yet to prove they can keep teams defense honest.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

all depends on those dozen eggs in the Kessler basket.

Eggs in a basket?

Your entire prognostication of the Kings future hinges on one somewhat arbitrary, niche need that you've magically identified as the most important thing in the world. Talk about eggs in a basket.

This "need" btw - is already partially filled by Duarte (though not to your satisfaction), and Kessler - also not to your satisfaction because apparently whoever fills the all important superstar three and d shooting forward must tick every single one of your boxes: great three point shooter, elite defender, etc., etc.

Those are your eggs, and that is your basket.

I'm starting to think you just like the attention that comes from being outrageous and unreasonable.

 

[Padrino]

With parity spreading across the NBA, even most playoff teams do not have completely optimized rosters/rotations. There are holes everywhere. Denver won their first title with a roster that few believed was truly championship-caliber. Yes, it would be ideal if the Kings had more rim protection and legitimate defensive length on the wing, but they're hardly the only competitive team that wishes it didn't have to stick a couple of square pegs into round holes in order to round out its rotation. I'm just glad that Monte didn't throw insane money at anybody from the mediocre class of free agents on the market this off-season. There will be lots of buyer's remorse to come for those teams that splurged on name recognition and it is nothing but good news that the Kings will not be among them.

 

[See_Hanks]

C- Sabonis - Lyles - Noel/Len
PF- Barnes - Sasha - Lyles
SF- Keegan - Barnes - Hueter
SG- Hueter - Monk - Duarte
PG- Fox - Monk - Mitchell

 

[alden.viado]

I wouldnt mind a Derrick Jones Jr, Terrence Ross, Hami Diallo Javonte Green for wing depth.

 

[serbiangoat]

Assuming Noel gets playing time could we see a Lyles/Sasha/Noel 2nd unit? With Noel assuming he can still defend the rim you could have Lyles/Sasha at PF/SF if the Jazz can run Olynyk/Lauri/Walker I don't see why the Kings can't.

 

[Woot!]

^. This is why Barnes will be moved to the bench and be a second or third option from the bench.

first unit is basically
Fox - 1st Option
Keegan - 2nd Option
Huerter - 3rd Option
Domas - 4th Option.

It makes zero sense having Barnes on the floor as the 5th option and focusing on defense. That role does not play to his strengths. Barnes can go get a bucket with no assistance and an ideal first, second or third option with the second unit.

You don't have much respect for HB; I get that.

But if they just freely chose to pay him $18 million/year to be "second or third option" off the bench, Monte should be fired.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

Assuming Noel gets playing time could we see a Lyles/Sasha/Noel 2nd unit? With Noel assuming he can still defend the rim you could have Lyles/Sasha at PF/SF if the Jazz can run Olynyk/Lauri/Walker I don't see why the Kings can't.

I was already salivating at our second unit lineups - but with the addition of Noel - even mores so.

A second unit of:

Davion
Monk
Sasha
Lyles
Noel

You're starting to have a mix of offense and defense within purely a second unit that could not only hold leads but extend them if facing the other teams backups. (of course your not subbing five at a time but you get the point). Assuming Davion continues to improve his shot- you've got four shooters on the floor.

Are we going to try to have four legit 3pt shooters on the floor at most times? That certainly seems to be part of the plan.

I don't think the league is going to be ready for what we're gonna bring next year. We had a top 3 offense in HISTORY last season - and we got significantly better offensively - both through natural development, and acquisitions. Buckle up!

 

[sactowndog]

Eggs in a basket?

Your entire prognostication of the Kings future hinges on one somewhat arbitrary, niche need that you've magically identified as the most important thing in the world. Talk about eggs in a basket.

This "need" btw - is already partially filled by Duarte (though not to your satisfaction), and Kessler - also not to your satisfaction because apparently whoever fills the all important superstar three and d shooting forward must tick every single one of your boxes: great three point shooter, elite defender, etc., etc.

Those are your eggs, and that is your basket.

I'm starting to think you just like the attention that comes from being outrageous and unreasonable.

again personal attacks……

Kessler is the only player on our roster with above average length and above average quickness which is needed for a multipositional defensive stopper which is what typically your 5th option on offense ideally does. If you believe otherwise please post facts versus insults.

Duarte has a 6’ 7” wingspan which is below average. He did not attend the combine but I assume he has above average quickness.

if you believe in the frequency of 2-3-4 defensive stoppers without above average length and quickness please post examples of such a player as opposed to made up hypotheticals of Chris Duarte being such a defensive stopper when he has never demonstrated such qualities in the NBA.

 

[Vinny Basketballerino]

again personal attacks……

Kessler is the only player on our roster with above average length and above average quickness which is needed for a multipositional defensive stopper which is what typically your 5th option on offense ideally does. If you believe otherwise please post facts versus insults.

Duarte has a 6’ 7” wingspan which is below average. He did not attend the combine but I assume he has above average quickness.

if you believe in the frequency of 2-3-4 defensive stoppers without above average length and quickness please post examples of such a player as opposed to made up hypotheticals of Chris Duarte being such a defensive stopper when he has never demonstrated such qualities in the NBA.

Yeah I think I'm kinda done responding to you. My post above was deemed acceptable by the mods - I checked. So you are gonna have to whine about personal attacks to them.

I had responded to your previous post with something complimentary - and you responded to that with a personal call out/dig to an issue you and I had already beaten to death - apparently not satisfied with letting it lie.

 

[sactowndog]

You don't have much respect for HB; I get that.

But if they just freely chose to pay him $18 million/year to be "second or third option" off the bench, Monte should be fired.

I have tons of respect for Barnes. His strengths are as an offensive stretch 4. He has always been a good but not an above average 2-3-4 defender because he lacks some quickness. He is best defending the 4 and can guard some 3’s.

he is an above average shooter from 3……. And 18M a year for that kind of player is cheap even if he comes off the bench.

the problem is Keegan is a similar defender and an exceptional shooter. You can play Barnes in the 5th option 3 spot but that role is a poor match to his skill sets.

 

[sactowndog]

Yeah I think I'm kinda done responding to you. My post above was deemed acceptable by the mods - I checked. So you are gonna have to whine about personal attacks to them.

I had responded to your previous post with something complimentary - and you responded to that with a personal call out/dig to an issue you and I had already beaten to death - apparently not satisfied with letting it lie.

not whining at all and you are free to ignore my posts. Me pointing out the fact that the Kings only have a single player with above average length and quickness is just stating a fact.

it is far from being unreasonable or outrageous. But don’t respond I don’t really care.

 

[SacTownKid]

I have tons of respect for Barnes. His strengths are as an offensive stretch 4. He has always been a good but not an above average 2-3-4 defender because he lacks some quickness. He is best defending the 4 and can guard some 3’s.

he is an above average shooter from 3……. And 18M a year for that kind of player is cheap even if he comes off the bench.

the problem is Keegan is a similar defender and an exceptional shooter. You can play Barnes in the 5th option 3 spot but that role is a poor match to his skill sets.

I guess it depends but you really don't want to be paying 18 million a year for any bench player unless they are basically playing the Manu/Harden 6th man role where they are still likely finishing the game and playing starters minutes. His deal only being 3 years would help if it ended up happening though so it's not a total value sink.

 

[sactowndog]

I guess it depends but you really don't want to be paying 18 million a year for any bench player unless they are basically playing the Manu/Harden 6th man role where they are still likely finishing the game and playing starters minutes. His deal only being 3 years would help if it ended up happening though so it's not a total value sink.

yeah except guy with his size and length who can also shoot 40% from 3 are pretty rare. What he got wasn’t really on overpay even if you come off the bench.

 

[kingsfan101]

I guess it depends but you really don't want to be paying 18 million a year for any bench player unless they are basically playing the Manu/Harden 6th man role where they are still likely finishing the game and playing starters minutes. His deal only being 3 years would help if it ended up happening though so it's not a total value sink.

Barnes was brought in to be a starter, will be a starter, and play starter minutes. Moreover, unless Sasha proves otherwise, no one deserves to be a starter in his place as of now.

Of course, it can be argued that someone like Kessler starting is more a question of fit vs worth, and Barnes is more valuable with the second unit. That's the argument anyways in the discussion. However, Barnes' minutes can be staggered to give him more time with the second unit. With Barnes, Keegan, and Sasha likely to play majority of minutes at the 3-4 positions, one or both of them will see reasonable time with the second unit anyway.

Minutes distribution will be quite interesting. We have depth at virtually every position (though I would like to see a third PG, unless Keon is expected to fill that role in a pinch. I know Monk will help, but I would like a regular PG). Given that Davion and Monk will be the primary backups at 1 and 2, if Duarte also sees some time, Kessler will likely see most of his minutes at the 3 position. Some of these guys will see minutes hard to come by. Might be a similar story for Len/Noel with Lyles probably being the primary Domas backup. That said, if some of these guys can spell longer rests for the starters, good for everyone.