2022 California Classic Day 3 7/5/2022 (Kings vs Lakers 2:30PM Pacific, NBATV)

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ESP47

All-Star
#271
#271
The_Jamal said:
Keon needs a year in the G-League, but he absolutely should have been drafted. His defense is going to play at the NBA level and a good year of development on his offense and he's got a shot to be a 3&D in the NBA. He's only 20 too, which surprised me a bit as a senior; thought he was 22.
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You know I was his biggest fan pre draft but I'm a little more bearish on Ellis after these 3 games. He looks way behind on offense to me. Further than I was expecting. Scared to handle the ball and make decisions. When he does, it's a roll of the dice. I think he needs a lot of work to be passable offensively in the NBA.

I know people are probably thinking that he won't have to do much in the NBA other than 3&D but he isn't really being asked to do more than that in SL and he just looks lost offensively. Even his wide open breakaway layups almost miss. I think his offense is in his head at this point. Hopefully he starts looking more comfortable on that end of the court.
 
W

Woot!

Starter
#272
#272
SLAB said:
People reacted like they took a guy who looks very solid professional when we need a star, but hyperbole gets the retweets!
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It is my honest opinion that Keegan Murray is more likely than Jaden Ivey to be a star in the NBA. (IIRC, you were an Ivey guy.) And that most folks who disagree are waaaay overstating the importance of Ivey's superior athleticism and waaaaaay understating the significance of attributes like drive, BBIQ, and discipline.
 
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KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#274
#274
The_Jamal said:
Keon needs a year in the G-League, but he absolutely should have been drafted. His defense is going to play at the NBA level and a good year of development on his offense and he's got a shot to be a 3&D in the NBA. He's only 20 too, which surprised me a bit as a senior; thought he was 22.
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He is 22. Born in early 2000.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#275
#275
ESP47 said:
You know I was his biggest fan pre draft but I'm a little more bearish on Ellis after these 3 games. He looks way behind on offense to me. Further than I was expecting. Scared to handle the ball and make decisions. When he does, it's a roll of the dice. I think he needs a lot of work to be passable offensively in the NBA.

I know people are probably thinking that he won't have to do much in the NBA other than 3&D but he isn't really being asked to do more than that in SL and he just looks lost offensively. Even his wide open breakaway layups almost miss. I think his offense is in his head at this point. Hopefully he starts looking more comfortable on that end of the court.
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He is an UDFA that will need to improve in Stockton.

the one thing that stood out to me was how hard it will be to play small against the Kings. Both Murray and Barnes look to post up and punish smaller defenders. Let’s hope Ox improves his 3 point shooting. If so all three can take a smaller player into the post and punish them with limited help to be found.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#277
#277
Woot! said:
It is my honest opinion that Keegan Murray is more likely than Jaden Ivey to be a star in the NBA. (IIRC, you were and Ivey guy.) And that most folks who disagree are waaaay overstating the importance of Ivey's superior athleticism and waaaaaay understating the significance of attributes like drive, BBIQ, and discipline.
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The issue for Keegans outlook is the lack of stars that can't or don't run some type of pick and roll, or have some type of offense running capabilities where they are flat out staring down a defense and producing either in isolation for themselves or others. Ivey has holes in his game, but the potential is there to be that type of player. If you watched Chet Holmgren in game 1 of SL you for sure saw those things. Out of the top 10 scorers right now, not a single one doesn't run some degree of PG and is averaging less than 4.6 apg. And playmaking doesn't just mean passing, it means being able to create multiple options out of creating for yourself as well. Legit triple threat Bball. Some of those top scorers don't really play like PG's either, they just draw so much attention and dominate that if you spread shooters around them they'll rack up those assists. That isn't really there with Keegan and yes, age is a factor here. This is why Keegan looks every bit more like a Harrison Barnes than a Jayson Tatum as a whole, he's refined and always under control whereas those superstars do have a little bit of chaos to them. There is just that little thing either missing or not being used but it's so close fans expecting more get frustrated. He could develop some of those skills but the goal should be not at the expense of the things he does really well. And that is Marvin Bagley to a T. In a league where players like him can't play PF, they didn't play him at C and basically tried to turn into, well, Keegan Murray. The Kings do have a player who could have a shot at that top 10 talent level and his name is De'Aaron Fox so in some ways Keegan Murray is a great fit since putting two Harrison Barnes types who approach the game from a team perspective but also have a good skill level and size on their own is pretty much what you want on paper with this roster. If you're looking for true stars the ability to run pick and roll or run an offense through your own ability to score without help is the main ingredient these days.
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#279
#279
Woot! said:
It is my honest opinion that Keegan Murray is more likely than Jaden Ivey to be a star in the NBA. (IIRC, you were and Ivey guy.) And that most folks who disagree are waaaay overstating the importance of Ivey's superior athleticism and waaaaaay understating the significance of attributes like drive, BBIQ, and discipline.
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I wouldn’t have drafted Ivey at 4. The issue has always been whether Monte properly squeezed enough value from that 4th pick that he lucked into. While Murray came as advertised ( high floor, low ceiling, good not elite), I think there are players after him, who could’ve easily provided the same value and more. Jalen Williams looks like he’s going to be a steal. Smooth handle, pro body with legit wing size, already looks like a legit perimeter defender, runs that pick n roll game like a pg, and can pass. Whike the player, who I really wanted was Dyson Daniels, Williams, Dieng, Mathurin, and Sochan are dudes, who I think may end up having better careers than Murray. And a few, like Daniels and Williams, will be able to provide immediate production from day one.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#280
#280
SacTownKid said:
The issue for Keegans outlook is the lack of stars that can't or don't run some type of pick and roll, or have some type of offense running capabilities where they are flat out staring down a defense and producing either in isolation for themselves or others. Ivey has holes in his game, but the potential is there to be that type of player. If you watched Chet Holmgren in game 1 of SL you for sure saw those things. Out of the top 10 scorers right now, not a single one doesn't run some degree of PG and is averaging less than 4.6 apg. And playmaking doesn't just mean passing, it means being able to create multiple options out of creating for yourself as well. Legit triple threat Bball. Some of those top scorers don't really play like PG's either, they just draw so much attention and dominate that if you spread shooters around them they'll rack up those assists. That isn't really there with Keegan and yes, age is a factor here. This is why Keegan looks every bit more like a Harrison Barnes than a Jayson Tatum as a whole, he's refined and always under control whereas those superstars do have a little bit of chaos to them. There is just that little thing either missing or not being used but it's so close fans expecting more get frustrated. He could develop some of those skills but the goal should be not at the expense of the things he does really well. And that is Marvin Bagley to a T. In a league where players like him can't play PF, they didn't play him at C and basically tried to turn into, well, Keegan Murray. The Kings do have a player who could have a shot at that top 10 talent level and his name is De'Aaron Fox so in some ways Keegan Murray is a great fit since putting two Harrison Barnes types who approach the game from a team perspective but also have a good skill level and size on their own is pretty much what you want on paper with this roster. If you're looking for true stars the ability to run pick and roll or run an offense through your own ability to score without help is the main ingredient these days.
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i think you are placing a lot of labels, comparisons and finality on things to try and resolve/predict/simplify situations that are more complex and still in very early stages of growth..
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#282
#282
As much as the Kings need Murray to be a 3pt marksman, this SL team needs him even more in that role because frankly we have a bunch of guards and wings who are laying bricks..

Once he's got shooters like Huerter, Monk and Barnes, (Vezenkov?) around him there will be more options and space for him to make plays for others (and collect hockey assists thru Sabonis and Fox too)... As of right now he can get solid looks for himself vs defenses that are all keyed in on collapsing on him like back at Iowa..

I swear its like some are complaining that he doesnt stat-pad, like he should beat the defense twice then kick it out just for the sake of collecting assists, as opposed to making the right basketball play which 9 times outa 10 for him rn is to finish the play himself..
 
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pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#283
#283
kb02 said:
I wouldn’t have drafted Ivey at 4. The issue has always been whether Monte properly squeezed enough value from that 4th pick that he lucked into. While Murray came as advertised ( high floor, low ceiling, good not elite), I think there are players after him, who could’ve easily provided the same value and more. Jalen Williams looks like he’s going to be a steal. Smooth handle, pro body with legit wing size, already looks like a legit perimeter defender, runs that pick n roll game like a pg, and can pass. Whike the player, who I really wanted was Dyson Daniels, Williams, Dieng, Mathurin, and Sochan are dudes, who I think may end up having better careers than Murray. And a few, like Daniels and Williams, will be able to provide immediate production from day one.
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I think the value Monte was looking for would have been an unprotected 2023 and nobody is giving those.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#284
#284
SLAB said:
I’m really trying to not get down because it’s only Summer League. But I’m just wondering how the plus-plus hyper athletes of the NBA will handle him as opposed to whatever these guys are.
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GD you’re a downer.

Please share the same concerns over Chet Holmgren facing stronger, heavier players and Ivey when facing more experienced and more skilled players as opposed to whatever the guys are they are facing off against now.

Sheesh.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#285
#285
SacTownKid said:
Oh, it sure sounded like Murray or nothing haha. When you put out a deal that almost nobody can even compete with in reality you're usually setting a price specifically high so nobody can match. He brought in Murray to talk to Fox and Domas. The writing is completely on the wall with this one even if it's not telling the full story.
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No, the writing isn’t on the wall. You just have done a tremendous job of thoroughly convincing yourself of what you want to believe. The rest is all confirmation bias.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#286
#286
Ozymandias said:
i think you are placing a lot of labels, comparisons and finality on things to try and resolve/predict/simplify situations that are more complex and still in very early stages of growth..
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Again, I'm going by what is established NBA law pretty much. Sure a 22 year old player that hasn't shown an entire side of abilities could eventually develop them but it's going against history for sure. Personally, I think he's just fine as is. He's a perfect fit, AS IS.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#287
#287
KingsFanSince85 said:
No, the writing isn’t on the wall. You just have done a tremendous job of thoroughly convincing yourself of what you want to believe. The rest is all confirmation bias.
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Nah, the love frothing at the mouth for Keegan Murray was pretty evident. We have seen why he would feel that way already so it wasn't completely unwarrented.
 
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