The Tankathon Thread (since that's apparently what this is now)
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
Let's take a look at the top 20 defensive teams this year (using DEFRTG) and list the good defenders they have at PF and/or C:
The path to becoming even a top 20 defensive team is extremely difficult if both your PF & C are below average defenders.
If the goal is to build a winner, you need to be at least respectable on both the offensive & defensive side of the ball. To be respectable defensively with Sabonis as your C, you really need to put a solid defender who can help protect the rim at PF, and if you want to be respectable offensively (or a great offensive team), ideally that PF is going to be able to shoot the 3 & space the floor.
- Boston = Horford, R. Williams, & Tatum
- Phoenix = Ayton & Crowder
- Golden State = Looney & Green
- Miami = Adebayo & Tucker
- Memphis = Adams & Jackson
- Cleveland = Allen & Mobley
- Dallas = Porzingis, Finney-Smith, & Kleber
- Toronto = Siakam & Barnes
- Los Angeles Clippers = Zubac, Batum, & George
- Philadelphia = Embiid
- Utah = Gobert
- New York = Robinson
- Minnesota = Vanderbilt & McDaniels
- Milwaukee = Giannis & Lopez
- Oklahoma City = Poku & Favors
- Denver = Gordon
- San Antonio = Poetl
- New Orleans = Valanciunas
- Orlando = Carter Jr & Bamba
- Brooklyn = Durant
The path to becoming even a top 20 defensive team is extremely difficult if both your PF & C are below average defenders.
If the goal is to build a winner, you need to be at least respectable on both the offensive & defensive side of the ball. To be respectable defensively with Sabonis as your C, you really need to put a solid defender who can help protect the rim at PF, and if you want to be respectable offensively (or a great offensive team), ideally that PF is going to be able to shoot the 3 & space the floor.
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Aren’t you a lil biased.
Boston has Brown and Smart. In addition to Tatum. That’s three good wing defenders.
Phx has Bridges and Cam Johnson.
GS has Klay, Kuminga, and Wiggins…
The idea that you can’t improve significantly by adding plus wing defenders, that the only way to improve defensively is in the interior is just foolish.
Boston has Brown and Smart. In addition to Tatum. That’s three good wing defenders.
Phx has Bridges and Cam Johnson.
GS has Klay, Kuminga, and Wiggins…
The idea that you can’t improve significantly by adding plus wing defenders, that the only way to improve defensively is in the interior is just foolish.
You have a good point with PHX and Boston (Bridges and Smart would be in DPOY contention if guards ever got considered), but not GSW. A giant chunk of their defensive success is Dray and Looney. Kuminga is not a wing, and Wiggins absolutely is not a good defender.
Also, don't twist his words. He didn't say "The only way to improve is in the interior" He said. "You need a strong PF defender to maximize Sabonis as your C" Big difference and he's right.
Also, don't twist his words. He didn't say "The only way to improve is in the interior" He said. "You need a strong PF defender to maximize Sabonis as your C" Big difference and he's right.
Right, there's not many of those players out there and the ones that are out there are hard to trade for. This is who I'd say is an ideal fit today with Sabonis:
Then I have an honorable mention list:
Then I have a "keeping my eye on" list:
Then I have a 2022 Draft list:
- Kevin Durant
- Jerami Grant
- Jaren Jackson Jr.
- PJ Washington
- Jaden McDaniels
- Robert Covington
- Maxi Kleber
- Nic Batum
- Grant Williams
Then I have an honorable mention list:
- Jayson Tatum (Not quite the rim protector I want at PF)
- Kristaps Porzingis (Not sure he's best guarding PFs full time. Likely better at C)
- Pascal Siakam (Not quite the rim protector I want at PF)
- Christian Wood (Not sure he's best guarding PFs full time. Likely better at C)
- Patrick Williams (Not quite the rim protector I want at PF)
- Evan Mobley (Not quite the shooter I want at PF)
- Scottie Barnes (Not quite the shooter I want at PF)
- Jonathan Kuminga (Not quite the shooter or rim protector I want at PF)
- Aleksej Pokusevski (Not quite the shooter I want at PF)
- Kyle Kuzma (Not quite a good enough defender I want at PF)
- OG Anunoby (Not quite the rim protector I want at PF)
- Aaron Gordon (Not quite the shooter or rim protector I want at PF)
- De'Andre Hunter (Not quite the rim protector I want at PF)
- Chris Boucher (Not sure he's best guarding PFs full time. Likely better at C)
- Zach Collins (Not sure he's best guarding PFs full time. Likely better at C)
Then I have a "keeping my eye on" list:
- Jalen Smith
- Jaxson Hayes
- Isaiah Roby
- Darius Bazley
- Nassir Little
- Greg Brown
- Yuta Watanabe
- Jalen McDaniels
Then I have a 2022 Draft list:
- Chet Holmgren
- Jabari Smith
- Keegan Murray
- Tari Eason
- EJ Liddell
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How is it biased to point to these good defensive teams not having below average defenders at both PF & C?
Nowhere did I say that you only need good defenders at PF & C to be a good defensive team, but I did say that it's extremely difficult to be a good defensive team without a good defender at PF or C.
Nowhere did I say that you only need good defenders at PF & C to be a good defensive team, but I did say that it's extremely difficult to be a good defensive team without a good defender at PF or C.
This was my one and only real gripe about Sabonis. He needs a bit of a unicorn next to him in the same way, but to a much lesser extent than Bagley does. Sabonis was paired up with Turner, who checks a lot of those boxes. He spreads the floor and protects the rim. The one box he doesn't check is that he's a good perimeter defender as well when the other teams go small.
Jaren Jackson Jr would probably be the best fit possible next to Sabonis but there are no JJJs available.
Keegan Murray is looking more and more like the player the Kings need in the draft to check off most of those boxes. The problem is that all those boxes have question marks next to them with Murray. He's shown he can do a bit of everything but I'm not convinced it will all translate and I'm not convinced it will be at a good enough level to cover up for Sabonis' weaknesses.
The problem does need to be addressed though. I guess the Kings could get around it if they get a player that is a great offensive player and fits with the current roster but then they'll probably wind up in the same territory as Portland or Indiana during their recent playoff runs. Either way I'll take it.
Jaren Jackson Jr would probably be the best fit possible next to Sabonis but there are no JJJs available.
Keegan Murray is looking more and more like the player the Kings need in the draft to check off most of those boxes. The problem is that all those boxes have question marks next to them with Murray. He's shown he can do a bit of everything but I'm not convinced it will all translate and I'm not convinced it will be at a good enough level to cover up for Sabonis' weaknesses.
The problem does need to be addressed though. I guess the Kings could get around it if they get a player that is a great offensive player and fits with the current roster but then they'll probably wind up in the same territory as Portland or Indiana during their recent playoff runs. Either way I'll take it.
Of course not and you won't find anything I posted above that contradicts that sentiment.
But you really think that if you replace their frontcourts with Sabonis & Banchero they wouldn't be significantly worse defensively? There's a reason the top defensive teams don't start a below average defender at both PF & C.
But you really think that if you replace their frontcourts with Sabonis & Banchero they wouldn't be significantly worse defensively? There's a reason the top defensive teams don't start a below average defender at both PF & C.
Elite talent? That's a stretch...but you're neglecting how that talent fits together. It's a great way to arrive at 2+2=3.
Good teams are at least respectable on both sides of the ball. Having 2 below average defenders at PF & C (the positions that erase mistakes, are put in the PnR, protect the rim, need to make timely rotations, etc.) calls into question how respectable that team could be on the defensive side of the ball thus lowering the team's potential ceiling.
If you want to draft Banchero and then look to trade one of them in the future, that's fine. I just don't think McNair has that type of time.
Good teams are at least respectable on both sides of the ball. Having 2 below average defenders at PF & C (the positions that erase mistakes, are put in the PnR, protect the rim, need to make timely rotations, etc.) calls into question how respectable that team could be on the defensive side of the ball thus lowering the team's potential ceiling.
If you want to draft Banchero and then look to trade one of them in the future, that's fine. I just don't think McNair has that type of time.
The only way to truly defend is from 2-4 and that's with versatility. Having a C that can switch and defend pick and roll is key as much as having a 2-4 that can switch with them is key. The days of having a 1 and a 5 that can defend inside and out and expecting that to carry your defense is all but gone. You simply have to have size and versatility on the perimeter. As for winning, well, defense isn't the most important if they are just trying to get into the playoff hunt. The Bulls are fairly middling and probably worse off than Sac considering Vucevic is guarding both pick and roll and the paint. I think Sabonis has more tools to guard pick and roll than Vuc although he's not as much of a force on the inside.
It sucks because Sabonis will never be anything more than a mediocre defender, at best. He also doesn't shoot 3s. Having a Fox-Sabonis duo is a nightmare because of their lack of floor spacing. As a result, to be a perfect fit next to Sabonis, you're looking at an elite 3pt shooter who can defend at a high level. There's no one with that skillset in this draft.
However, Jabari Smith would fit perfect next to Fox & Sabonis on offense. He's the guy we should be trying to trade up for.
However, Jabari Smith would fit perfect next to Fox & Sabonis on offense. He's the guy we should be trying to trade up for.
Looks like the Lakers are going to lose tonight even though they kept it close through almost 3 quarters. They rested Russ and AD but I wonder if they (including Lebron) return tomorrow versus the Thunder. OKC plans to start a cardboard cutout of Alexej Pokusevski but have yet to receive league approval.
The guy that I covet is from the team the Kings just played - Jaxson Hayes. He's young, long, athletic and barely just beginning to plumb the depths of his potential. Every time I see him I visualize him playing next to Sabonis and I see him as a great complementary fit. He gives what Sabonis doesn't - the great athletic rangy defender, while Sabonis gives what he doesn't have - rebounding and an offensive tool box. NO is going to have to pay three huge salaries in McCollum, Ingram and Z. Williamson. If he hasn't done so already, McNair needs to make a call the Big Easy and see if they want some help out of their oncoming financial hit by unloading Hayes. Next year is the last year of his rookie contract.
I'm keeping my eye on Hayes. His shooting is what will determine if he's a good fit next to Sabonis as he has the length, athleticism, defensive potential, & rim protection covered. Below is how his shooting has progressed over the years:
College Year 1: N/A 3P% on 0 3PA and .740 FT% on 100 FTA
NBA Year 1: .250 3P% on 4 3PA and .647 FT% on 190 FTA
NBA Year 2: .429 3P% on 14 3PA and .775 FT% on 120 FTA
NBA Year 3: .373 3P% on 51 3PA and .768 FT% on 181 FTA
If he can up his 3PA while knocking them down at a solid rate, he's an intriguing fit next to Sabonis.
College Year 1: N/A 3P% on 0 3PA and .740 FT% on 100 FTA
NBA Year 1: .250 3P% on 4 3PA and .647 FT% on 190 FTA
NBA Year 2: .429 3P% on 14 3PA and .775 FT% on 120 FTA
NBA Year 3: .373 3P% on 51 3PA and .768 FT% on 181 FTA
If he can up his 3PA while knocking them down at a solid rate, he's an intriguing fit next to Sabonis.
Yeah most of the metrics have him as an adequate defender but he just doesn't pass the eye test on anything other than post up defense since it's pretty difficult to move him due to his size. I think he's the best defending big man on the Kings but that's not saying a whole lot at the moment.
I think it was Jamal that brought up Isaiah Hartenstein. He has better defensive metrics than Sabonis and he's having a breakout year. Per36 16.7pts, 9.8reb, 4.7ast, 1.5stl and 2.3blk. Dude stuffs the stat sheet. He's the type of bench player the Kings used to have back in their heyday. He's showing all the signs of breaking out. The only concern is his lack of 3pt shooting. He only takes one 3 every two games but he's at a 42% clip. Small sample size that doesn't prove anything but it shows there's at least some potential there.
I think it was Jamal that brought up Isaiah Hartenstein. He has better defensive metrics than Sabonis and he's having a breakout year. Per36 16.7pts, 9.8reb, 4.7ast, 1.5stl and 2.3blk. Dude stuffs the stat sheet. He's the type of bench player the Kings used to have back in their heyday. He's showing all the signs of breaking out. The only concern is his lack of 3pt shooting. He only takes one 3 every two games but he's at a 42% clip. Small sample size that doesn't prove anything but it shows there's at least some potential there.