Kings trade Tyrese and Buddy for Sabonis and Holiday and Lamb
- Thread starter Tetsujin
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The "they didnt want me" killed me. Man i felt like it was my little brother saying that. He was right. He loves hard. I hope he looks at the fan reactions online and sees how much we actually loved him 0and takes some comfort im that. I hope when he comes back to sactown, you guys show him insane love. And i hope sac chases him as a free agent and he is over it enough to consider it and we are good enough to make him think about it. The last one is for when hell freezes i know. But still
In a way, this may be an even more embarrassing collection of thoughts than the Jalen/Jacoby one from yesterday because (a) Reddick actually knows Tyrese, (b) Reddick is supposed to be the "smart" analyst, and (c) I'm pretty sure Reddick is just angry because he doesn't want Tyrese to play for Rick Carlisle, who he hates.
For so much of the NBA commentariat, the Kings seem to have traded Tyrese Haliburton for... peanuts? I'm not sure why Domantas Sabonis is treated like an afterthought in the equation of the trade, as if the significant return the Kings got for selling high on their young asset isn't worth remarking upon. Nearly every single analyst has paid the tiniest bit of lip service to the fact that the Kings got the best player in the trade, a two-time all-star who, as a passing big man in the league today, is second only to Nikola Jokic, the greatest passing big man in NBA history. "*cough*OhyeahtheygotSabonis*cough*cough*... but they traded Haliburton!!111!!!!11!!" I don't get it.
There's a whole helluvalot to like about Tyrese's game, and even more to love about his professionalism, personality, demeanor, enthusiasm, etc. But when did the conventional wisdom transform from "The Kings drafted him at 12?! What a steal!" to "TYRESE HALIBURTON IS A FUTURE SUPERSTAR AND MONTE MCNAIR SHOULD BE FLOGGED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE FOR TRADING HIM!!1!!111!!11!!"
It's so bizarre to me. Tyrese is not a go-to option. He lacks the killer instinct to be one. And for all of his craftiness, he's not a particularly gifted ballhandler. He doesn't have the bag of tricks necessary to break down a defense with consistency, and he really struggles to get to the rim. When he does get there, he's not a particularly strong finisher. On top of that, he rarely gets to the free throw line. He's limited with his left hand, and predictable with his right. And though he has quite a bit of skill at playing the passing lanes on the defensive end, he's a pretty f***ing terrible overall defender. There's also not much grit or toughness in him, and even less meat on his bones to help him body opposing players on either end.
He's also just 21 years old, so there's plenty of time and room to improve. And none of this is to say that I'm not a fan of Hali's or that I was glad when he was traded. I was not. My initial reaction was the same as many Kings fans. It bummed me out. I love the kid. I was thrilled when the Kings drafted him, and thrilled when he stepped on the court in his first season and had a measurable impact almost immediately. Tyrese is the ultimate plug-and-play asset. Coaches surely love him for this reason. He's liquid metal. He's so eminently malleable. He's got fantastic vision for such a young talent. But a guy like Hali who's in the highest echelon of offensive efficiency maestros isn't necessarily the guy you build a whole team around. He's more likely the guy that complements the guy(s) you build a whole team around. You can slot him in next to a high wattage star of pretty much any size or stripe. But it doesn't make Haliburton himself "the Man."
Yes, Tyrese could very well become an all-star in the years to come. In some seasons, there's room on all-star rosters for really high-level Swiss Army Knives like Hali. But he doesn't shift the gravity of NBA games by virtue of his presence on the court alone. He has yet to show anything near the kind of superstar potential that truly earns the "untouchable" tag. Nobody should behave as if Monte McNair traded away the next Luka Doncic. He traded away a very good player. But he also got a very, very good one back, and one that balances the roster in a much more appreciable way.
There's a whole helluvalot to like about Tyrese's game, and even more to love about his professionalism, personality, demeanor, enthusiasm, etc. But when did the conventional wisdom transform from "The Kings drafted him at 12?! What a steal!" to "TYRESE HALIBURTON IS A FUTURE SUPERSTAR AND MONTE MCNAIR SHOULD BE FLOGGED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE FOR TRADING HIM!!1!!111!!11!!"
It's so bizarre to me. Tyrese is not a go-to option. He lacks the killer instinct to be one. And for all of his craftiness, he's not a particularly gifted ballhandler. He doesn't have the bag of tricks necessary to break down a defense with consistency, and he really struggles to get to the rim. When he does get there, he's not a particularly strong finisher. On top of that, he rarely gets to the free throw line. He's limited with his left hand, and predictable with his right. And though he has quite a bit of skill at playing the passing lanes on the defensive end, he's a pretty f***ing terrible overall defender. There's also not much grit or toughness in him, and even less meat on his bones to help him body opposing players on either end.
He's also just 21 years old, so there's plenty of time and room to improve. And none of this is to say that I'm not a fan of Hali's or that I was glad when he was traded. I was not. My initial reaction was the same as many Kings fans. It bummed me out. I love the kid. I was thrilled when the Kings drafted him, and thrilled when he stepped on the court in his first season and had a measurable impact almost immediately. Tyrese is the ultimate plug-and-play asset. Coaches surely love him for this reason. He's liquid metal. He's so eminently malleable. He's got fantastic vision for such a young talent. But a guy like Hali who's in the highest echelon of offensive efficiency maestros isn't necessarily the guy you build a whole team around. He's more likely the guy that complements the guy(s) you build a whole team around. You can slot him in next to a high wattage star of pretty much any size or stripe. But it doesn't make Haliburton himself "the Man."
Yes, Tyrese could very well become an all-star in the years to come. In some seasons, there's room on all-star rosters for really high-level Swiss Army Knives like Hali. But he doesn't shift the gravity of NBA games by virtue of his presence on the court alone. He has yet to show anything near the kind of superstar potential that truly earns the "untouchable" tag. Nobody should behave as if Monte McNair traded away the next Luka Doncic. He traded away a very good player. But he also got a very, very good one back, and one that balances the roster in a much more appreciable way.
Hell of a lot of undeserved shade thrown Fox's way too. He gave up a lot to make it work with Haliburton. Loyal soldier and never complained. I have no doubt that Indiana is going to be very happy with Haliburton but I am certain anyone who turned down Fox will have a lot to answer for if he breaks out with Sabonis here.
The way that the Kings and Fox have been treated during the trade process should light a massive fire under Fox. If im Gentry, i instill in Fox the message, that other teams and GMs didnt value you or respect you and wanted to trade low on you while you were sacrificing for your numbers team and teammate. You make them respect you.
To Sabonis, they think you an afterthought in tge trade. Its mind boggling that the all star and best player in the trade is not even considered when analyzing this deal. Gentry tells him, they forgot you and forget who you are and what you can do. Go remind them.
To all the role players, channel Denzel from remember the titans, NOT ANOTHER INCH. Make em rememver the night they played the Kings. Lolz!
To Sabonis, they think you an afterthought in tge trade. Its mind boggling that the all star and best player in the trade is not even considered when analyzing this deal. Gentry tells him, they forgot you and forget who you are and what you can do. Go remind them.
To all the role players, channel Denzel from remember the titans, NOT ANOTHER INCH. Make em rememver the night they played the Kings. Lolz!
Bravo. You nailed my sentiments exactly (which you have a habit of doing). By the end of last year, my thought was that Hali was going to be a great “super role player” steal in the draft that could be a nice piece for us moving forward, but he definitely had a ceiling below star and if he ever went to an all star game it would be because we somehow had the best record in the league. I was also poo pooing people that felt he was massively snubbed by not being number one or two in rookie of the year voting.
This year, things started pretty rough for him and felt like he could be the type that always suffers from a lack of assertiveness on the court. Over the last 20 games he had definitely put that concern to rest; however, I do believe he has a ceiling that others somehow think is limitless. Is he potentially peak Brogdon or peak Paul? Probably something in the middle, but I don’t believe we are looking at Point God 2.0 (for the reasons you laid out above). So then you ask, would you want potentially a young peak Brogdon (at least) on this team moving forward or a slightly older Sabonis who, while he can and likely will have incremental improvements to his game throughout his prime, for the most part is what he is as a player. That is definitely debatable, and when the deal went down my heart said Hali…but I’m coming around.
What all of these national media “analysts” have blundered is the central premise that the only path for the kings is to blow it up and build around Hali as the Point God 2.0, analytics wet dream. I have definitely been a blow it up proponent this year; however, this has been out of complete desperation and apathy to the disgusting basketball we have witnessed. This is not a Vivek bash, but I do understand why that is a tough strategy for this organization, at this time. Outside of diehards on this site, after 15 years the community mostly just wants to see competitive basketball, and some hope we can be good. I keep hearing on nba podcasts that the Kings are doing this to what, have a ceiling as a 6 or 7 seed in the west? Hmmmm….ok, sign me up. Let’s get some freaking life and respectability back into Kings basketball and worry about step two later.
I’m also reminded of analysts capping on the bulls for signing DeRozon. Past his prime…. Doesn’t play basketball the right way. I dare you to read how they now just love the current Bulls brand of basketball. What I’ve learned in watching the NBA for a long time, is that usually really good teams got lucky at some point along the way. Some teams give themselves better odds, but luck is almost always needed to reach elite team status. We often think of luck through the draft ping pong balls. However, sometimes teams just get lucky that the collection of talent they throw out there mesh in a magical way and the team is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. You tinker a little here and there, hire the perfect coach for the situation, etc.
Trading Hali for Sabonis in a vacuum is not crazy value to value, which most analysts usually have conceded by the end of their rant. But it seems to come down to their opinion that the stupid inept Kings (Vlade is still GM, right?) didn’t do what we think a team should do when we don’t think they have a path to a championship. The equation is ALWAYS championship or bust, and rarely nuanced beyond that. Well, just maybe a team makes a move to first get respectable, and then you grow from there. Either way, smart decision making and a little luck is always needed to get to a true contender status.
This year, things started pretty rough for him and felt like he could be the type that always suffers from a lack of assertiveness on the court. Over the last 20 games he had definitely put that concern to rest; however, I do believe he has a ceiling that others somehow think is limitless. Is he potentially peak Brogdon or peak Paul? Probably something in the middle, but I don’t believe we are looking at Point God 2.0 (for the reasons you laid out above). So then you ask, would you want potentially a young peak Brogdon (at least) on this team moving forward or a slightly older Sabonis who, while he can and likely will have incremental improvements to his game throughout his prime, for the most part is what he is as a player. That is definitely debatable, and when the deal went down my heart said Hali…but I’m coming around.
What all of these national media “analysts” have blundered is the central premise that the only path for the kings is to blow it up and build around Hali as the Point God 2.0, analytics wet dream. I have definitely been a blow it up proponent this year; however, this has been out of complete desperation and apathy to the disgusting basketball we have witnessed. This is not a Vivek bash, but I do understand why that is a tough strategy for this organization, at this time. Outside of diehards on this site, after 15 years the community mostly just wants to see competitive basketball, and some hope we can be good. I keep hearing on nba podcasts that the Kings are doing this to what, have a ceiling as a 6 or 7 seed in the west? Hmmmm….ok, sign me up. Let’s get some freaking life and respectability back into Kings basketball and worry about step two later.
I’m also reminded of analysts capping on the bulls for signing DeRozon. Past his prime…. Doesn’t play basketball the right way. I dare you to read how they now just love the current Bulls brand of basketball. What I’ve learned in watching the NBA for a long time, is that usually really good teams got lucky at some point along the way. Some teams give themselves better odds, but luck is almost always needed to reach elite team status. We often think of luck through the draft ping pong balls. However, sometimes teams just get lucky that the collection of talent they throw out there mesh in a magical way and the team is exponentially greater than the sum of its parts. You tinker a little here and there, hire the perfect coach for the situation, etc.
Trading Hali for Sabonis in a vacuum is not crazy value to value, which most analysts usually have conceded by the end of their rant. But it seems to come down to their opinion that the stupid inept Kings (Vlade is still GM, right?) didn’t do what we think a team should do when we don’t think they have a path to a championship. The equation is ALWAYS championship or bust, and rarely nuanced beyond that. Well, just maybe a team makes a move to first get respectable, and then you grow from there. Either way, smart decision making and a little luck is always needed to get to a true contender status.
I wasn't sure which word to use there -- but I think you know what I mean. Anyone who is a talking head at a national network or publication and gets paid to give their analysis of NBA related news. 9 times out of 10 they have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to the Kings, which is understandable. I know next to nothing about most other NBA teams because I don't have unlimited time to watch everybody play. I guess you need to have some kind of take when it's your job but they should at least temper their reactions with some acknowledgement that they're only looking at stats, highlights, and the one or two games a year when the Kings played a team they actually care about.
Fair enough. And you're right about them not knowing what they're talking about, when it comes to the Kings. My thing is, in Jacoby's case, he doesn't even get paid to give analysis. Like 90 percent of his job is to set up Jalen Rose, and then lay out. The only reason dude talks on the show is because, unlike Stephen A. Smith, Jalen Rose doesn't have the ability to talk to himself for thirty minutes straight.
I've been a fan of Sabonis, but losing Haliburton really hurt. Though a lesser trade on paper, the DDV move reframes the first trade and the roster makes more sense than in ages. I still have the nagging feeling that Haliburton is a guy you keep because he can fit any kind of roster, but the early returns look great.
Sabonis hasn't had anything over an average game for him, but his impact looks profound. He and Fox are working well together and not getting in each other's way. DDV looked great on the floor even without his shots falling. Having size and depth on the wings is unfamiliar ground. Outside shooting (we may already have the answers on the roster) and interior defense (we don't) are the main questions I have about this squad.
Sabonis hasn't had anything over an average game for him, but his impact looks profound. He and Fox are working well together and not getting in each other's way. DDV looked great on the floor even without his shots falling. Having size and depth on the wings is unfamiliar ground. Outside shooting (we may already have the answers on the roster) and interior defense (we don't) are the main questions I have about this squad.
Sarcastic gallows humor noted and appreciated.
But I've been drinking, so here goes: We should point out that the accused lowest BBIQ players on the Kings (Buddy, Bagley...talented yes, BBIQ perhaps no) just got traded for players including the son of one of the best players of all time, and the eldest brother of three players who all made it to the NBA (hint: their last name isn't Ball) and a Jay Wright protege with ridiculous athleticism. Throw in Barnes (nobody with any credit at all can question his BBIQ) and Mitchell (as heady a player as you're going to see, just small) and Fox (we know him, and he's no dummy) and dagnabbit, we might actually be a smart team on average at this point.
I'd say that we need to have a bit of patience and let this squad coalesce into what it should ultimately be, but at the same time...we're 2-0 here. This team is going to improve from 2-0. Sure, it's just against the T'Pups and the Wiz without Beal (and also without Zinger, whom they haven't actually had yet) but 2-0 nonetheless. Wait until this team can run the Fox/Sabonis P&R at will. Wait until Barnes and Sabonis learn each others' games.
I dunno, they say when you drink your true personality comes out. So...I'm an optimist? Damn.
But I've been drinking, so here goes: We should point out that the accused lowest BBIQ players on the Kings (Buddy, Bagley...talented yes, BBIQ perhaps no) just got traded for players including the son of one of the best players of all time, and the eldest brother of three players who all made it to the NBA (hint: their last name isn't Ball) and a Jay Wright protege with ridiculous athleticism. Throw in Barnes (nobody with any credit at all can question his BBIQ) and Mitchell (as heady a player as you're going to see, just small) and Fox (we know him, and he's no dummy) and dagnabbit, we might actually be a smart team on average at this point.
I'd say that we need to have a bit of patience and let this squad coalesce into what it should ultimately be, but at the same time...we're 2-0 here. This team is going to improve from 2-0. Sure, it's just against the T'Pups and the Wiz without Beal (and also without Zinger, whom they haven't actually had yet) but 2-0 nonetheless. Wait until this team can run the Fox/Sabonis P&R at will. Wait until Barnes and Sabonis learn each others' games.
I dunno, they say when you drink your true personality comes out. So...I'm an optimist? Damn.
Bunch of BBIQ dummies and NBA laughing stock? I think we can finally bury stereotype with this new and improved Kings team. But still may take awhile for biased East Coast sports media monopoly to notice since prefer to just flat out ignore Sac. But eventually the in lock-step "experts" will get it and hopefully we can have our long awaited sweet revenge.
Some advanced stats on Sabonis:
Sabonis is 10th in most points created in the NBA.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/...okic-giannis-antetokounmpo-mvp-points-created
Sabonis was a net positive on a 19-37 team while playing 35mpg.
Sabonis is 12th in win shares
14th in vorp
8th in eFG%
Sabonis has led the NBA in screen assists in each of the past two seasons and his 7.0 average in 2019-20 remains the highest mark on record. Yes, like in most ever by anyone.
Sabonis is 10th in most points created in the NBA.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2022/...okic-giannis-antetokounmpo-mvp-points-created
Sabonis was a net positive on a 19-37 team while playing 35mpg.
Sabonis is 12th in win shares
14th in vorp
8th in eFG%
Sabonis has led the NBA in screen assists in each of the past two seasons and his 7.0 average in 2019-20 remains the highest mark on record. Yes, like in most ever by anyone.
So basically all those people that said "advanced stats love Halliburton" just ignored that advanced stats love Sabonis?
I think the media just likes having the Kings to dunk on because they know there will never be any organized push back on how bs their takes are.
Also so much talk about "7 years of control" of contracts, how is that working out with Bagley, or Zion, or Simmons. Players get angry at their team and demand an exit and quit until they get it.
I think the media just likes having the Kings to dunk on because they know there will never be any organized push back on how bs their takes are.
Also so much talk about "7 years of control" of contracts, how is that working out with Bagley, or Zion, or Simmons. Players get angry at their team and demand an exit and quit until they get it.
My take away from the media dunking on the Kings this go around is that they don't share the same sense of urgency for the Kings to reach the playoffs as the fans and ownership.
Haliburton represented to the media a step in the right direction of building a team properly. Draft well, hold and keep accumulating talent. What they saw was the Kings finally drafting well and immediately trading that piece in a rush to get that 8th seed.
It's not the playoff drought that the national media pokes at. It's the dysfunction of the organization. However, the fans of this organization think that getting to the playoffs will create instant credibility. It won't. Competing for a title will.
I see what Monte is doing in the context of what ownership and some fans want. I'm not against it overall. The Kings are still 1 serious piece away from pushing them over the top and competing for a top 4 seed in the West.
Haliburton represented to the media a step in the right direction of building a team properly. Draft well, hold and keep accumulating talent. What they saw was the Kings finally drafting well and immediately trading that piece in a rush to get that 8th seed.
It's not the playoff drought that the national media pokes at. It's the dysfunction of the organization. However, the fans of this organization think that getting to the playoffs will create instant credibility. It won't. Competing for a title will.
I see what Monte is doing in the context of what ownership and some fans want. I'm not against it overall. The Kings are still 1 serious piece away from pushing them over the top and competing for a top 4 seed in the West.