[Game] Kings @ Raptors, 12/13/2021 4pm Pacific 7pm Eastern

[Woot!]

he took Davis out of the starting lineup when he was killing. We had won 3 in a row and then he took him out. That was stupid. Yeah Barnes came back but get TD minutes

Maaaan, I'm *still* trippin' about Buddy playing something like the last 18 minutes of the Hornets game.

 

[Woot!]

This is freaking BS. YOU, De'Aaron Fox, are NOT PLAYING HARD. Stop with BS! Playing a "hands down" defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with not being sharp. Letting your man go by you with no effort whatsoever has NOTHING to do with being sharp. YOU are doggin' it! Stop with excuses. Stop with "poor me" and implying it's the coaches. It's pathetic. You are becoming the poster child for mentally weak child. MAN UP!

I don't see him implying that it's the coaches at all. Just the opposite. Above all, coaches are responsible for what's being run and he says "everybody is running the same s***." If the Raptors' bench is much "sharper" in running their stuff than the Kings are in running theirs, that's on the players.

But losses like last night's are why I'm really not feeling the Kings-just-aren't-talented argument. Sure, they're not talented enough to win a championship. They're not talented enough to overcome whatever ails them. But that's not the same as saying that talent is the fundamental issues.

Losing by 23 to a much-reduced Raptors team was not about talent. Nor was losing to the Sixers' JV. Losses to the Rockets, Mavs (yes, even w/Luka), Spurs, Thunder, and a 7-player Hornets team - at least HALF the Kings' losses have been to teams that put decidedly less talented players on the floor on those particular game nights.

 

[kb02]

I don't see him implying that it's the coaches at all. Just the opposite. Above all, coaches are responsible for what's being run and he says "everybody is running the same s***." If the Raptors' bench is much "sharper" in running their stuff than the Kings are in running theirs, that's on the players.

But losses like last night's are why I'm really not feeling the Kings-just-aren't-talented argument. Sure, they're not talented enough to win a championship. They're not talented enough to overcome whatever ails them. But that's not the same as saying that talent is the fundamental issues.

Losing by 23 to a much-reduced Raptors team was not about talent. Nor was losing to the Sixers' JV. Losses to the Rockets, Mavs (yes, even w/Luka), Spurs, Thunder, and a 7-player Hornets team - at least HALF the Kings' losses have been to teams that put decidedly less talented players on the floor on those particular game nights.

Preparation, focus, and work ethic is a skill. If these players aren't going to prepare, watch film, focus, and work for each other, that is a talent issue. Trade the Vlade core, Monte.

 

[kb02]

I'm not ready to chalk it up to "low BBIQ." That feels too simplistic given that, on occasion, we HAVE seen them play fast, move the ball quickly and effectively. It obviously doesn't happen often enough on either end, even in wins, and rarely on both ends at the same time. But it has happened enough not to be some sort of fluke.

Incidentally, HB is waaaaay underutilized. You're right to call him a "light" connector. He could be more than that - and needs to play a larger facilitation role for *this* team to succeed. Instead, he spends most of every game sitting above the circle literally not touching the ball on most offensive possessions.

Doing something once or a few times is an accident. If they don't trust each other enough to play that way or if they haven't put in the time to play that way, that is a talent issue.

 

[kingsboi]

I don't see him implying that it's the coaches at all. Just the opposite. Above all, coaches are responsible for what's being run and he says "everybody is running the same s***." If the Raptors' bench is much "sharper" in running their stuff than the Kings are in running theirs, that's on the players.

But losses like last night's are why I'm really not feeling the Kings-just-aren't-talented argument. Sure, they're not talented enough to win a championship. They're not talented enough to overcome whatever ails them. But that's not the same as saying that talent is the fundamental issues.

Losing by 23 to a much-reduced Raptors team was not about talent. Nor was losing to the Sixers' JV. Losses to the Rockets, Mavs (yes, even w/Luka), Spurs, Thunder, and a 7-player Hornets team - at least HALF the Kings' losses have been to teams that put decidedly less talented players on the floor on those particular game nights.

Kings haven't played the Rockets yet

 

[Woot!]

Kings haven't played the Rockets yet

As the kids say, my bad.

 

[EIM86]

Maaaan, I'm *still* trippin' about Buddy playing something like the last 18 minutes of the Hornets game.

Gentry better not be the coach next season

 

[Woot!]

Preparation, focus, and work ethic is a skill. If these players aren't going to prepare, watch film, focus, and work for each other, that is a talent issue. Trade the Vlade core, Monte.

If "talent" includes every player attribute that contributes to team success, then sure. But "preparation, focus, and work ethic" are the kinds of attributes we typically contrast with talent.

 

[Woot!]

Gentry better not be the coach next season

Always depends on what the alternative is, of course, but yeah: if the team continues on this path, it's inconceivable that Gentry returns. They need strong coaches and offensive/defensive systems, significant roster turnover, and a diligent offseason of preparation to hope to turn this around.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

The Kings are crap because they invested massive money in guys like Fox/Barnes/Buddy it's really that simple, this is not a hard fix at all. Giving like 20+mill or whatever figure each is getting is suicide. Comparing those guys impact on winning (nearly non-existent) to what they make gives you what you have now. Fox is like a 10-12mil per year guy at best.

You are dead wrong about Fox only being worth 10 - 12 mil lol. Some guys in that range would be Dillon Brooks, Josh Hart, Dwight Powell, and Danny Green. Fox is very deserving of much higher money. Definitely not a max deal either, but a lot higher than 10 -12.

Everyone we gave solid money too are all good fits next to Fox in theory. The problem is this team should've never been built around Fox to begin with. We committed to him so early and every major move we made was done with him in mind. Trading Cousins for Hield (and then of course paying Hield), paying Barnes early when we didn't know what the market for him would be, passing on Doncic. All done for Fox. All done before we even knew what type of player we had on our hands and before we knew if he could lead a winning team. Now we know that he is not a franchise player and his effect on winning so far hasn't be great, yet we have an entire team of highly paid guys built around him. I do feel bad for Fox because it is not his fault that the team unnecessarily put all their eggs in one basket with him. I do think Fox is a really good player and is worth a team spending money on. But in no world is Fox a franchise guy and unfortunately this team probably won't improve until it rebuilds properly around guys teams should be built around.

 

[EIM86]

Always depends on what the alternative is, of course, but yeah: if the team continues on this path, it's inconceivable that Gentry returns. They need strong coaches and offensive/defensive systems, significant roster turnover, and a diligent offseason of preparation to hope to turn this around.

I just want the GM to pick the coach like every other team does. Can’t we just do the simplest mother fu***** thing man. If his pick sucks I can live with it but I loathe vivek cause I’ve worked with people that micromanage and they drove me nuts.

 

[Tetsujin]

You are dead wrong about Fox only being worth 10 - 12 mil lol. Some guys in that range would be Dillon Brooks, Josh Hart, Dwight Powell, and Danny Green. Fox is very deserving of much higher money. Definitely not a max deal either, but a lot higher than 10 -12.

Everyone we gave solid money too are all good fits next to Fox in theory. The problem is this team should've never been built around Fox to begin with. We committed to him so early and every major move we made was done with him in mind. Trading Cousins for Hield (and then of course paying Hield), paying Barnes early when we didn't know what the market for him would be, passing on Doncic. All done for Fox. All done before we even knew what type of player we had on our hands and before we knew if he could lead a winning team. Now we know that he is not a franchise player and his effect on winning so far hasn't be great, yet we have an entire team of highly paid guys built around him. I do feel bad for Fox because it is not his fault that the team unnecessarily put all their eggs in one basket with him. I do think Fox is a really good player and is worth a team spending money on. But in no world is Fox a franchise guy and unfortunately this team probably won't improve until it rebuilds properly around guys teams should be built around.

how the hell did we do that with Fox in mind when he wasn’t even in the league yet?

 

[jiimbob]

how the hell did we do that with Fox in mind when he wasn’t even in the league yet?

yeah, I believe the only negative impacts of having Fox then trying to build around him were passing on Donic and in my opinion even worse was wasting the 10th pick in 2017 by trading down for two guys that don’t even play in the league instead of drafting Donovan Mitchell.

 

[kb02]

yeah, I believe the only negative impacts of having Fox then trying to build around him were passing on Donic and in my opinion even worse was wasting the 10th pick in 2017 by trading down for two guys that don’t even play in the league instead of drafting Donovan Mitchell.

Vlade prioritized good guys and a lotto ticket. In hindsight, that was a disaster.

Truth be told, I wanted Fox and Giles during that draft. And Anounby. So 2/3. Giles knees never recovered and Fox never embraced his true ceiling as Gary Payton 2.0. JJ should’ve never gone ahead of Collins or Anounby.

 

[Tetsujin]

yeah, I believe the only negative impacts of having Fox then trying to build around him were passing on Donic and in my opinion even worse was wasting the 10th pick in 2017 by trading down for two guys that don’t even play in the league instead of drafting Donovan Mitchell.

But that was year Fox was drafted so we can't really the Kings trying to build around him for that more than Vlade being the unrepentant gambler and trying to go two for the price of one. Drafting Spida there is obvious in hindsight but Vlade had the chance to bring the Bam-Fox combo to the Kings and balked at it. The Harry Giles gamble was completely understandable with the 20th pick even if it didn't pan out. Using the 15th on Justin Jackson was questionable at the time and even more questionable now that OG is an NBA starter and Justin Jackson is playing for a G-League team somewhere.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

But Jackson did help us land Barnes. Horrid pick in hindsight but we got out of it ok.

DALLAS...

of course we gave them the ultimate favor. that they are likely to blow.

 

[jiimbob]

Vlade prioritized good guys and a lotto ticket. In hindsight, that was a disaster.

Truth be told, I wanted Fox and Giles during that draft. And Anounby. So 2/3. Giles knees never recovered and Fox never embraced his true ceiling as Gary Payton 2.0. JJ should’ve never gone ahead of Collins or Anounby.

Vlade always tried to impress with what he thought was crafty. His second draft had so much possibility, trading away the Italian SG for a first and trading down from the 8th for two 1st in a draft where that made sense. Problem was he was clueless in regards to talent, none of those three are in the league while a handful of players he could have picked are very productive.
A lot of talk here about Monte and the recent coaches, but just Vlade, forget about the weasel and Vivek set this franchise back to a place that’s unbearable.

 

[jiimbob]

But that was year Fox was drafted so we can't really the Kings trying to build around him for that more than Vlade being the unrepentant gambler and trying to go two for the price of one. Drafting Spida there is obvious in hindsight but Vlade had the chance to bring the Bam-Fox combo to the Kings and balked at it. The Harry Giles gamble was completely understandable with the 20th pick even if it didn't pan out. Using the 15th on Justin Jackson was questionable at the time and even more questionable now that OG is an NBA starter and Justin Jackson is playing for a G-League team somewhere.

I hear ya, we just drafted Fox, another guard. That sure wouldn’t have stopped Monte believing him the best player available.
Bam and OG a big mistake as well. Giles at 20 why not take a punt, but JJ at 15. Call me the puke guy that day.

 

[Kingster]

I don't see him implying that it's the coaches at all. Just the opposite. Above all, coaches are responsible for what's being run and he says "everybody is running the same s***." If the Raptors' bench is much "sharper" in running their stuff than the Kings are in running theirs, that's on the players.

But losses like last night's are why I'm really not feeling the Kings-just-aren't-talented argument. Sure, they're not talented enough to win a championship. They're not talented enough to overcome whatever ails them. But that's not the same as saying that talent is the fundamental issues.

Losing by 23 to a much-reduced Raptors team was not about talent. Nor was losing to the Sixers' JV. Losses to the Rockets, Mavs (yes, even w/Luka), Spurs, Thunder, and a 7-player Hornets team - at least HALF the Kings' losses have been to teams that put decidedly less talented players on the floor on those particular game nights.

I agree. It is on the players. If the "sharp" argument has any credence, the players should take the darned initiative and go over the offense and defense on their own (or with coaches) until they are sharp. If it takes 10 hrs straight, they should take 10 hrs. No excuses anymore.

 

[KainLear]

I agree. It is on the players. If the "sharp" argument has any credence, the players should take the darned initiative and go over the offense and defense on their own (or with coaches) until they are sharp. If it takes 10 hrs straight, they should take 10 hrs. No excuses anymore.

It's also telling that Fox believes the roster is at fault, "not having sharp teammates" is essentially "not having the right pieces to success"?

 

[mac]

It's also telling that Fox believes the roster is at fault, "not having sharp teammates" is essentially "not having the right pieces to success"?

I don't think he said he doesn't have sharp teammates (in the sense of blaming them and not himself), and if he did I'd be very vocal in calling out his hypocrisy.

 

[mrlaze]

That was 9 minutes of "I dont know."