[Game] Kings @ Knicks, 2/25/21 4:30pm PST 7:30pm EST

[The_Jamal]

And yet people keep saying that. While it may be true, he's going to catch the flak and rightfully so. Also, people still think the financials are the issues all the while they just dropped a max deal on Fox and picked up Bjelicas option prior to the year only to watch him sit. No, those don't sound like total and complete "issues" to me. Issues like that don't involve picking up 7 million dollars and then dropping it in the toilet for no reason.

Na, not at all. This isn't his mess, it's Vlades. Walton isn't his coach. Now if Walton is somehow here next year? Ok, then he's tying his name to Walton.

Until McNair gives us a reason to place bad moves on his resume, I'm going to always going to put the blame on the incompetent ownership that has ALREADY had a GM/coaching scenario like this play out poorly.

 

[gunks]

+1 to both of The Jamal’s posts.

A properly used Buddy would be shooting way higher percentages, and have far less opportunities to make dumb plays with the ball. He used to move constantly off ball on offense back in the Joerger days. And he’d hit those open looks at an elite percentage. Luke thinks he’s Harden or something.

And I don’t know how anyone can blame McNair for any of this.

Vlade left him a horrible coach and a bunch of pieces with low, low trade value. Barnes was Mr. invisible last season. Bagley looked like an injury prone bust. Bogi and Buddy were inefficient, low IQ chuckers.

McNair absolutely killed it in the draft, and he almost got great value for Bogi, before that trade fell apart through no fault of his own. Giving Fox the max was a no-brainer.

Never mind the ever looming specter of Vivek and his terrible ownership practices. Who knows what that guy is up to behind the scenes, besides grooming his son to take over as GM.

 

[Turgenev]

And yet people keep saying that. While it may be true, he's going to catch the flak and rightfully so. Also, people still think the financials are the issues all the while they just dropped a max deal on Fox and picked up Bjelicas option prior to the year only to watch him sit. No, those don't sound like total and complete "issues" to me. Issues like that don't involve picking up 7 million dollars and then dropping it in the toilet for no reason.

I'm not interested in defending anyone at the moment - be it players, coaches, or front office. There are some bright spots, but at the moment the team as a collective is awful. Perhaps McNair's strategy is to lose this year and get a good pick. But you're right. That has consequences. At some point, those still interested enough to bother with criticism will direct it towards McNair.

 

[hrdboild]

Did we really just let the team with the lowest average PPG in the league drop 140 on us? Wowzers. That is some seriously impressive defensive incompetency. Should we just go ahead and roll out an actual red carpet leading straight to the basket at Golden 1 Center now? Heck, why stop there. Bring it on the road trips too! I'm sure the other teams will allow it.

 

[mac]

+1 to both of The Jamal’s posts.

A properly used Buddy would be shooting way higher percentages, and have far less opportunities to make dumb plays with the ball. He used to move constantly off ball on offense back in the Joerger days. And he’d hit those open looks at an elite percentage. Luke thinks he’s Harden or something.

And I don’t know how anyone can blame McNair for any of this.

Vlade left him a horrible coach and a bunch of pieces with low, low trade value. Barnes was Mr. invisible last season. Bagley looked like an injury prone bust. Bogi and Buddy were inefficient, low IQ chuckers.

McNair absolutely killed it in the draft, and he almost got great value for Bogi, before that trade fell apart through no fault of his own. Giving Fox the max was a no-brainer.

Never mind the ever looming specter of Vivek and his terrible ownership practices. Who knows what that guy is up to behind the scenes, besides grooming his son to take over as GM.

Here's what I'm seeing from Buddy:

Last year, he was trying to create off the dribble a lot. It didn't always work great, but his ballhandling overall looked better, he was a decent playmaker and still moderately successful in scoring off the dribble via stepbacks, spins and such. Just look at this highlight vid:

We all agreed that ideally you don't want him trying to create too much for himself.

This year though, it's like he's been instructed to only shoot 3s or move the ball. The way our offense is setting him up/defense is playing him, his opportunities are for him to pass and cut hard (which nobody does so I blame scheme), pass in the pick and roll when they collapse on him (which he has done pretty well to Holmes and Bagley), or dribble into a midrange/floater when they close out on him (which he has not done at all, and I have to assume is due to scheme because LOOK AT WHAT HE WAS DOING LAST YEAR). Right now, when they close out and he gets space to dribble inside, he's not even looking at the basket and looking to pass out to the corners instead.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I don't mind the tank. Kings need a third cornerstone. Fox, Hali, _____. Bags is going to have a Derrick Favors like career--more offense, virtually no defense, above average rebounder. Keep and develop the kids. Trade everyone else.

And Buddy is always good for a few bone headed plays a game--yea, it matters when games are usually decided by a few possessions. That dude's hoops IQ is lower than my son's, who is 7 months.

Again? When did we ever stop?

We didn't and I don't mind the tank. This was a bit of a call back to 3 weeks ago or however many years ago we went 7-1.

 

[ppine]

Bad coaching scheme has to be it

If basketball were only that simple.

 

[ppine]

I really liked Kayte Hunter's words last night after the game. She understands the game on many levels. She was very outspoken about the team's lack of effort and team defense. She said you cannot just blame the coaching. It is on the players, which I have agreed with all along. She also made the point that the Knicks were much more physical than the Kings. This has been a theme since Cousins left.

The Knicks are a case study in how a team can improve their defense in one year. We should watch this game again and focus on the Knicks defense. Coach T has done a great job with them.

Hunter made the point that defense can be played well by anyone that is willing to work at it. Team defense takes a group. The NBA is full of great offenses and powerhouse players that can shoot it. There is nothing easy about it, but defense has been the key to the Kings' losing record for a lot of years in a row. They need to focus on it going forward. To me that means that either Hield or Bagley has to go. "Most teams can work around one poor defender, but nobody can be successful with two of them." I think this quote is attributed to Hubie Brown.

 

[chief bromden]

I really liked Kayte Hunter's words last night after the game. She understands the game on many levels. She was very outspoken about the team's lack of effort and team defense. She said you cannot just blame the coaching. It is on the players, which I have agreed with all along. She also made the point that the Knicks were much more physical than the Kings. This has been a theme since Cousins left.

The Knicks are a case study in how a team can improve their defense in one year. We should watch this game again and focus on the Knicks defense. Coach T has done a great job with them.

Hunter made the point that defense can be played well by anyone that is willing to work at it. Team defense takes a group. The NBA is full of great offenses and powerhouse players that can shoot it. There is nothing easy about it, but defense has been the key to the Kings' losing record for a lot of years in a row. They need to focus on it going forward. To me that means that either Hield or Bagley has to go. "Most teams can work around one poor defender, but nobody can be successful with two of them." I think this quote is attributed to Hubie Brown.

Lack of effort and team defense is usually a sign of malaise or lack of buy in by the players. Yeah, that's on the players, but they are human and you have to have buy in from at least your best people on the team to have any amount of team success (this doesn't just apply to basketball). I think I'm seeing a lack of trust and buy in to the system, but it's always hard to tell during losing streaks like this since bad body language is inevitable.

 

[ppine]

I don't see any serious competitors on the Kings right now except for maybe Mista Holmes.
At the end of games, guys like Fox are all happy and joking around with the opposing team.
Players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, got really pissed off when they lost.
The Kings just glide around the floor and take it. I do not see the competitive fire to win, much less make the playoffs.
They play with almost no physicality at all. The softest team in history maybe. Get in someone's way. Take a charge. Get upset.
Walton is the only guy that seems bothered by losing 8 in a row with record setting bad defense.

"lack of buy in and trust" is an old cliche. This team is way past that. They play like they don't care.
Maybe they just make too much money. Maybe their salary needs to be connected to performance like nearly every other job.

 

[Livinthedream]

Bad coaching scheme has to be it

Lack of buy in as well. The players don't believe in the coaches or each other. Or both.

 

[chief bromden]

I don't see any serious competitors on the Kings right now except for maybe Mista Holmes.
At the end of games, guys like Fox are all happy and joking around with the opposing team.
Players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Barkley, got really pissed off when they lost.
The Kings just glide around the floor and take it. I do not see the competitive fire to win, much less make the playoffs.
They play with almost no physicality at all. The softest team in history maybe. Get in someone's way. Take a charge. Get upset.
Walton is the only guy that seems bothered by losing 8 in a row with record setting bad defense.

"lack of buy in and trust" is an old cliche. This team is way past that. They play like they don't care.
Maybe they just make too much money. Maybe their salary needs to be connected to performance like nearly every other job.

Maybe when the system they are running fails again and again, they look around and wonder: "why keep believing the outcome will be any different if we keep doing the same things? What has Luke ever won as a coach?"

You say "lack of buy in and trust" is a cliche, but you follow it up with soft and they don't care. How is that different? Take a charge? Bagley is taking charges left and right, and in your last post you said he's a problem. Taking charges isnt going to fix anything.

Slamming a clipboard doesn't mean Luke cares, that's just a raw emotional reaction to failure. You cited Buddy's play as a problem. Why is Luke continuing to put him out there then? Why doesn't he have the toughness to bench him? It cuts both way.

 

[dude12]

Well look, I'm probably the biggest Buddy apologist you'll find on this board, but I'd say 50-50. Last year as far as on-court production goes I'd agree it was more 80-20, but I can't blame Luke for Buddy shooting at such a low clip this year on some pretty good looks.

I do think I can blame Luke that we don't see Buddy getting easy points off backdoor cuts, or pulling up for more mid-range shots (I mean I doubt Buddy would be hesitant to take the midrange shots that he was taking all of last season if the coaches were actively encouraging him to do so; he might not be the highest bball IQ guy but it's a bit of a stretch to think that his response to coaches saying "take the open midrange that you took all last year!" is "BUDDY NO LIKE, TWO POINT ATTEMPT BAD"). Have to wonder how much of an issue fatigue is too.

Buddy under Joerger was damn good. Buddy under Walton is not the same. It points to Walton.

 

[dude12]

Thibs >>>>>> Walton

Head coaches are responsible for the culture they create. Player effort is tied to this culture. It’s on Walton.

 

[The_Jamal]

Thibs >>>>>> Walton

Head coaches are responsible for the culture they create. Player effort is tied to this culture. It’s on Walton.

Knicks are a really great example of this. They have no business being a near .500 team with their talent level. Randle is awesome, but the rest of the team... really isn't. Thibs is getting every little bit out of his guys and they've fully bought into his system.

We're like the exact opposite.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

+1 to both of The Jamal’s posts.

A properly used Buddy would be shooting way higher percentages, and have far less opportunities to make dumb plays with the ball. He used to move constantly off ball on offense back in the Joerger days. And he’d hit those open looks at an elite percentage. Luke thinks he’s Harden or something.

And I don’t know how anyone can blame McNair for any of this.

Vlade left him a horrible coach and a bunch of pieces with low, low trade value. Barnes was Mr. invisible last season. Bagley looked like an injury prone bust. Bogi and Buddy were inefficient, low IQ chuckers.

McNair absolutely killed it in the draft, and he almost got great value for Bogi, before that trade fell apart through no fault of his own. Giving Fox the max was a no-brainer.

Never mind the ever looming specter of Vivek and his terrible ownership practices. Who knows what that guy is up to behind the scenes, besides grooming his son to take over as GM.

What in the world are we even talking about with McNair? After years and years of terrible GMs we finally get a guy that realizes the importance of drafting BPA over fit and understands when to let guys walk in free agency and he is considered a problem? If we had Vlade or Pete we definitely wouldn’t have drafted Hali and Bogi would be locked into a 5 year deal above market value.

 

[The_Jamal]

What in the world are we even talking about with McNair? After years and years of terrible GMs we finally get a guy that realizes the importance of drafting BPA over fit and understands when to let guys walk in free agency and he is considered a problem? If we had Vlade or Pete we definitely wouldn’t have drafted Hali and Bogi would be locked into a 5 year deal above market value.

We 100% wouldn't have Hali, that's for sure. We wouldn't have "needed" any guards with Vlade likely having every intention of resigning Bogi.

 

[hrdboild]

If basketball were only that simple.

 

[kb02]

All this talk about the third best guard on our team is kinda head scratching. It's not even like he's close to the other two--he's levels behind. The sooner he's gone, the better.

 

[kb02]

Buddy under Joerger was damn good. Buddy under Walton is not the same. It points to Walton.

If Walton ==> Buddy Sucking, Does Walton ==> Haliburton ROY?

 

[SLAB]

If Walton ==> Buddy Sucking, Does Walton ==> Haliburton ROY?

I’m sure the answer is “Hali would be even better under a better coach.”

... which at this point, I don’t even doubt it.

 

[Telemachus]

All this talk about the third best guard on our team is kinda head scratching. It's not even like he's close to the other two--he's levels behind. The sooner he's gone, the better.

I could see the logic last year to blame the coach when Buddy was struggling. However, when he moved to the bench, he magically started playing like we expected him to (was that on him or the coach?) This season he is consistently getting wide open shots & missing them. Last night he had the ball kicked out to him for a wide open 3 only to miss everything by at least a foot. I think Buddy just needs to get his head on straight.

 

[sactowndog]

There is nothing I’ve seen from Bogi this year (including his injury) that makes me regret they let him go.

Bogi has hardly played but he clearly wasn’t the problem.

 

[SLAB]

Bogi has hardly played but he clearly wasn’t the problem.

He sure as hell isn’t a solution either.

 

[kingsfan101]

I think it's just sad that Guy plays 4 minutes to CoJo's 23 at this point. We need to see if the young guys have a chance to be rotation players. CoJo is neither going to be here next year, nor helping the team right now. Guy should get at least some of his minutes on a consistent basis with a defined role for a little while at least. If he stinks it up, so be it. The season is gone, and we will know that he is not part of the future.

 

[chief bromden]

When the edibles wear off

https://twitter.com/statuses/1365132544371527684

Never would have guessed that this would be a moment where his mask didn't stray down. Amazing

 

[The_Jamal]

Bogi has hardly played but he clearly wasn’t the problem.

No one said he was?

The problem was this:

Barnes-22 mil
Buddy-24 mil
Bogi-18 mil
Fox-28 mil
Bagley- 11 mil

all signed long-term and essentially taking all our cap space for a team that hasn't sniffed playoff contention. Expensive/old/and just good enough to never be in contention And no matter what you think Richaun's value is, you wouldn't be able to offer him above a 8.5 mil deal (roughly) because we'd be over the cap.

 

[sactowndog]

He sure as hell isn’t a solution either.

I didn’t say he was but I didn’t say addition by subtraction either.

 

[SacTownKid]

Na, not at all. This isn't his mess, it's Vlades. Walton isn't his coach. Now if Walton is somehow here next year? Ok, then he's tying his name to Walton.

Until McNair gives us a reason to place bad moves on his resume, I'm going to always going to put the blame on the incompetent ownership that has ALREADY had a GM/coaching scenario like this play out poorly.

He's keeping on part of Vlades mess or at least on the surface. In fact likely the main part that cost Vlade his own gig. That is his fault whether he's in a tough spot or not or whether or not he's just a cardboard cutout with no real power. It will come back to him as it always does for a GM with more powerful people looming over him. He needs to fight the battle if he has no real control because it's his record that will take the hit. This is all speculation though. You're assuming he basically has no pull which if true, again, this is all doomed anyway. But until that is known we have to assume he is making the calls as any GM is supposed to as part of their job description.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm not interested in defending anyone at the moment - be it players, coaches, or front office. There are some bright spots, but at the moment the team as a collective is awful. Perhaps McNair's strategy is to lose this year and get a good pick. But you're right. That has consequences. At some point, those still interested enough to bother with criticism will direct it towards McNair.

Yeah, anyone who thinks an underling isn't going to catch the sword before the king never watched Game of Thrones, haha. GM's, CEO's, it's all the same, they're well paid fall guys so business can go on as usual.