Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)
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I understand that this organization needs more stability I give u that.
But u need to build stability based on good choises, I won’t bother stating minor problems like wrong ver signings over payed contract for roll players etc.
But I won’t pass 2 major mistakes.
1st we got nothing in return for DMC in that trade and I recall we got better offers.
2nd we didn’t draft the one that cannot be named.
And both’s On Vlade to blame
But u need to build stability based on good choises, I won’t bother stating minor problems like wrong ver signings over payed contract for roll players etc.
But I won’t pass 2 major mistakes.
1st we got nothing in return for DMC in that trade and I recall we got better offers.
2nd we didn’t draft the one that cannot be named.
And both’s On Vlade to blame
Don’t think you’d get a 1st and Anunoby. They are extremely high on him and for good reason. And This would likely have to be done in the offseason.
Why would Chicago prefer Bagley over those other guys?
Divincenzo is highly valued by MIL. They see him as their SG of the future. They value him more than Bogdan I’m sure. And then you have the fact that your salaries don’t match either which makes the proposal illegal.
Why would Chicago prefer Bagley over those other guys?
Divincenzo is highly valued by MIL. They see him as their SG of the future. They value him more than Bogdan I’m sure. And then you have the fact that your salaries don’t match either which makes the proposal illegal.
The team isnt bad because of Vlade. The team is bad because for the last 13 years it has had the type of management that would fire someone like Vlade. The attempts to undermine the team's success in order to move them, random coach firings, viral meningitis, hiring staff in the wrong order, and the belief that a person's success in one area necessitates their success in all other areas (Vivek) are all of the contributing factors to why the team sucks now. The pieces are in place. The coach needs time.
Yes. But the team is also bad because of Vlade.
All GM's make mistakes. What separates a competent GM from a poor one is that a competent GM's good moves are the big ones, and their bad moves are forgettable. Every one of Vlade's solid moves has been forgettable, all of his **** ups are so colossal we talk about them seasons later. Hell, I figure some will bemoan passing on Luka fifteen years from now. Vlade is a bad GM, and a symptom of all the other problems you listed in your post.
I totally agree with you on Luke though. He needs more time. Nuggets fans wanted to fire Malone after his first season there. Look at him now.
All GM's make mistakes. What separates a competent GM from a poor one is that a competent GM's good moves are the big ones, and their bad moves are forgettable. Every one of Vlade's solid moves has been forgettable, all of his **** ups are so colossal we talk about them seasons later. Hell, I figure some will bemoan passing on Luka fifteen years from now. Vlade is a bad GM, and a symptom of all the other problems you listed in your post.
I totally agree with you on Luke though. He needs more time. Nuggets fans wanted to fire Malone after his first season there. Look at him now.
Barnes trade was good. Fox pick was good. Bogdon signing was good. Bagley (say what you will) pick was good. The Cousins trade (say what you will) was good. We have collected good role players. We arent way over the cap. The GM/President can only influence so much of what is produced on the court.
I put the blame for the underwhelming season on the shoulders of crappy play from some of the players, and injuries. Any other analysis of what is going wrong requires some reaching. You just cant expect to have consistently good play when your best players are constantly injured, rotating in and out of the lineup. Maybe an experienced playoff team could weather a stretch of injuries like this, but even that is uncertain. How about some experience with the coach and a relatively injury free season with at least a somewhat favorable schedule? Is that allowed?
I put the blame for the underwhelming season on the shoulders of crappy play from some of the players, and injuries. Any other analysis of what is going wrong requires some reaching. You just cant expect to have consistently good play when your best players are constantly injured, rotating in and out of the lineup. Maybe an experienced playoff team could weather a stretch of injuries like this, but even that is uncertain. How about some experience with the coach and a relatively injury free season with at least a somewhat favorable schedule? Is that allowed?
I have no idea how Bagley’s can be considered a good pick right now when all the other top-level guys picked around him have so far outperformed him, and oh yeah.... he’s also made of glass now.
Love his upside all you want, I’m sure it’s there, but as of now the Kings were gifted one of the luckiest breaks in franchise history and Vlade botched it. If a good GM was dead set on Bagley, he would have traded down (with say, the Mavs?) and taken Bagley + gotten additional picks.
Love his upside all you want, I’m sure it’s there, but as of now the Kings were gifted one of the luckiest breaks in franchise history and Vlade botched it. If a good GM was dead set on Bagley, he would have traded down (with say, the Mavs?) and taken Bagley + gotten additional picks.
You could say the same of most GMs, though. For example:
2015 WCS was the right choice. Assuming he had Holmes' motor, he would have been the perfect pairing with DMC.
2016 wasn't great, for sure. But the hindsight this year also wasn't as ugly.
2017 Fox was great. I still like Giles. I don't know that you would also pick Mitchell considering you had just picked Fox. The rest of the players aren't franchise-changing talents. They're good players, but they don't reset Sacramento any.
2018 I was all in on Doncic. If I squint, I can kinda see why Bagley was chosen, but I still can't justify it. Doncic was at a position of need and an amazing talent. If it means we would have to lose out on Buddy or Bogs, which, given their performance this year, justifies the move, I would have been OK with that.
I think the bigger issue has been with the way coaching has been handled. Malone was the right guy for the team, and they didn't want to build around him and DMC. He was also preaching defense first - he did that in Denver, and hey, they're looking pretty good right now. Joerger was also preaching defense. And having guys earn their time. A lot of these kids have had everything handed to them, and they can't handle the parity of the NBA. Joerger understood that, and more importantly, made them understand that nothing is easy. You have to earn it. Fox knew that. If Bagley didn't, then that's on him. Management should have stayed out of the way. Same with Buddy.
I guess my point is that this falls on management. Walton is preaching defense. Like Malone, he's preaching an understanding of a half-court offense, because most of these AAU kids have never heard of it. Can management stomach it? Can the fans? I guess we'll see.
Ultimately, everyone needs to step up.
2015 WCS was the right choice. Assuming he had Holmes' motor, he would have been the perfect pairing with DMC.
2016 wasn't great, for sure. But the hindsight this year also wasn't as ugly.
2017 Fox was great. I still like Giles. I don't know that you would also pick Mitchell considering you had just picked Fox. The rest of the players aren't franchise-changing talents. They're good players, but they don't reset Sacramento any.
2018 I was all in on Doncic. If I squint, I can kinda see why Bagley was chosen, but I still can't justify it. Doncic was at a position of need and an amazing talent. If it means we would have to lose out on Buddy or Bogs, which, given their performance this year, justifies the move, I would have been OK with that.
I think the bigger issue has been with the way coaching has been handled. Malone was the right guy for the team, and they didn't want to build around him and DMC. He was also preaching defense first - he did that in Denver, and hey, they're looking pretty good right now. Joerger was also preaching defense. And having guys earn their time. A lot of these kids have had everything handed to them, and they can't handle the parity of the NBA. Joerger understood that, and more importantly, made them understand that nothing is easy. You have to earn it. Fox knew that. If Bagley didn't, then that's on him. Management should have stayed out of the way. Same with Buddy.
I guess my point is that this falls on management. Walton is preaching defense. Like Malone, he's preaching an understanding of a half-court offense, because most of these AAU kids have never heard of it. Can management stomach it? Can the fans? I guess we'll see.
Ultimately, everyone needs to step up.
Its absolutely not 20/20 hindsighting. I can promise you I hated every one of those things that I'm "whining" about right when they happened. Hated the Bagley pick, I constantly brought up that we should gather additional assets, I hated the offseason when we signed non contributing "mentors" for 40million/year, I absolutely hated the philly trade. Those were all horrible moves right when they happened and they still are.
Hard to say actual names for Vlades replacement since I'm not in a position to interview candidates or pay six figures to a consultant firm to handle the process but what I do know is that Vlade has been a bad gm. If you want me personally to list you some names, then there is Hinkie available, Ujiri didnt renew his contract with Raptors aparrently, Morey could be leaving Rockets soon or maybe poach some FO guy from some good franchise.
Well hopefully it should be obvious to Vivek that Vlade should be fired. Steal whatever you want but any gm that has performed this poorly shouldnt have the priviledge to be one of 32 persons in this world to operate an Nba team.
Gm is so important to a team that money should be irrelevant in this case. If one decides to buy an Nba franchise, he should be ready to hire a guy and pay for his contract if he performs poorly. If money is a problem in this situation, then you should sell the team to someone that can help this franchise to become good.
All these mistakes were made by Vlade. Not getting future assets during a rebuild, drafting Bagley (yes it was a huge mistake), philly trade, bad drafting overall, giving too big contracts to vets ect. No one else made these mistakes. Also the pieces arent in place. We dont have nearly enough talent to be a serious contender. Thats on Vlade and not anyone else.
Hard to say actual names for Vlades replacement since I'm not in a position to interview candidates or pay six figures to a consultant firm to handle the process but what I do know is that Vlade has been a bad gm. If you want me personally to list you some names, then there is Hinkie available, Ujiri didnt renew his contract with Raptors aparrently, Morey could be leaving Rockets soon or maybe poach some FO guy from some good franchise.
Well hopefully it should be obvious to Vivek that Vlade should be fired. Steal whatever you want but any gm that has performed this poorly shouldnt have the priviledge to be one of 32 persons in this world to operate an Nba team.
Gm is so important to a team that money should be irrelevant in this case. If one decides to buy an Nba franchise, he should be ready to hire a guy and pay for his contract if he performs poorly. If money is a problem in this situation, then you should sell the team to someone that can help this franchise to become good.
All these mistakes were made by Vlade. Not getting future assets during a rebuild, drafting Bagley (yes it was a huge mistake), philly trade, bad drafting overall, giving too big contracts to vets ect. No one else made these mistakes. Also the pieces arent in place. We dont have nearly enough talent to be a serious contender. Thats on Vlade and not anyone else.
I disagree with your approach. Besides can't miss, generational players like Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Luka, for most players it is hard to predict how good or bad they will be. E.g. Jokic was the late second-round pick. So, even when you draft the 60th player on the draft, Ben Wallace can happen and you can't blame GM for not recognizing he will be DPOY a few seasons later.
However, I still think Vlade is bad at drafting, but the reasons are not players he did not draft. The reason is that from the least above (8 players), aside from Fox (pretty obvious pick), we don't have a single keeper. Hopefully, Bagley will be another one, but Vlade missed obvious choice, no need to elaborate that. This year, he might hit a jackpot with JJ, I like the kid a lot, but it is way too early to tell.
IMO, he was better with FAs. Holmes, Bjelica, and CoJo are clear hits with very reasonable contracts. The signings that did not pan out were the short term and Vlade was able to trade them out. Hopefully, he will do the same with Dedmon.
Recently he has shown improvements with trades, I think that he won Bogdan and Barns trades.
However, I still think Vlade is bad at drafting, but the reasons are not players he did not draft. The reason is that from the least above (8 players), aside from Fox (pretty obvious pick), we don't have a single keeper. Hopefully, Bagley will be another one, but Vlade missed obvious choice, no need to elaborate that. This year, he might hit a jackpot with JJ, I like the kid a lot, but it is way too early to tell.
IMO, he was better with FAs. Holmes, Bjelica, and CoJo are clear hits with very reasonable contracts. The signings that did not pan out were the short term and Vlade was able to trade them out. Hopefully, he will do the same with Dedmon.
Recently he has shown improvements with trades, I think that he won Bogdan and Barns trades.
They tried the approach of taking someone from a successful organization.... Pete ring a bell? No sure answers.
Someone else also mentioned the value of the organization and the ability to eat contracts. That is paper value and that doesn't count until you sell. Has nothing to do with liquid assets (i.e. cash). Eating contracts deals directly with cash.
The Kings ownership is a strange beast. I would think that it is somewhat unique. Vivek has the controlling interest but is a minority owner in terms of how much of the team he owns. Think about that and think about the politics that would come with it. Different factions have their own motives and business interests. The team on the floor IS NOT always number one.
Someone else also mentioned the value of the organization and the ability to eat contracts. That is paper value and that doesn't count until you sell. Has nothing to do with liquid assets (i.e. cash). Eating contracts deals directly with cash.
The Kings ownership is a strange beast. I would think that it is somewhat unique. Vivek has the controlling interest but is a minority owner in terms of how much of the team he owns. Think about that and think about the politics that would come with it. Different factions have their own motives and business interests. The team on the floor IS NOT always number one.
Hey, calm down. I did not say the facts are wrong. What I mean is that the metric is not very good. By the same metric, most if not all GMs would look bad because, in each draft, there are several overlooked players. As I mentioned, I have no problem with Vlade missing a few hidden gems other GMs missed too. My issue is that before this year's draft and the possible exception of JJ, Vlade has never drafted such a player.
hmm. First I am calm. Asking questions is not a hot take. I’m don’t think your contention that drafting is luck and all GM’s miss at the rate of Vlade holds water. Let’s look at these four examples:
Indiana
2015: Miles Turner
On board: Oubre, Booker
2016: Chris Lavert (traded for Thaddeus Young)
On board: Siakim, Murray
2017: TJ Leaf
On board: Collins, Allen, Anunoby
2018: Aaron Holiday 23rd pick
Utah:
2015: Trey Lyles. 12th
On board: Oubre, Booker,
2016 Taurean Prince
On board: Lavert, Siakim, Murray
2017: Donovan Mitchell
2018: Grayson Allen 21 pick
Toronto:
2015: Delon Wright. 20th
On board: no one
2016 Siakim
On board: Murray, Brogdan
2017 OG Anunoby
2018: no pick
San Antonio.
2015. Milutinov. 26th
On board: no one
2016. Dejounte Murray
2017. Derrick White
2018. Lonnie Walker
Indiana
2015: Miles Turner
On board: Oubre, Booker
2016: Chris Lavert (traded for Thaddeus Young)
On board: Siakim, Murray
2017: TJ Leaf
On board: Collins, Allen, Anunoby
2018: Aaron Holiday 23rd pick
Utah:
2015: Trey Lyles. 12th
On board: Oubre, Booker,
2016 Taurean Prince
On board: Lavert, Siakim, Murray
2017: Donovan Mitchell
2018: Grayson Allen 21 pick
Toronto:
2015: Delon Wright. 20th
On board: no one
2016 Siakim
On board: Murray, Brogdan
2017 OG Anunoby
2018: no pick
San Antonio.
2015. Milutinov. 26th
On board: no one
2016. Dejounte Murray
2017. Derrick White
2018. Lonnie Walker
Settle for bad? I am not defending Vlade. I trust Vlade more than Vivek. And that is not a compliment.
Right thing for the Team? Who says there isn't pressure. Some of the owners are involved due to the development potential around the arena. Competing interests. The Kings ownership is messy. I am not sure what the arrangements are in the ownership agreement for transfer of power. During the relocation saga there was all sorts of talk about Whales. Burkle was a Whale. Vivek may be a big fish. He sells, he doesn't get back in.
Right thing for the Team? Who says there isn't pressure. Some of the owners are involved due to the development potential around the arena. Competing interests. The Kings ownership is messy. I am not sure what the arrangements are in the ownership agreement for transfer of power. During the relocation saga there was all sorts of talk about Whales. Burkle was a Whale. Vivek may be a big fish. He sells, he doesn't get back in.
Again, I can give you examples of many GMs misses. The problem with Vlade is that he never hits outside of obvious choices, and in the case of Bagley, he even missed the obvious one. Let's just hope that JJ pans out, and that is the start of a new trend. And yes, Popovic and SA have a stellar record but even they missed Jokic in 2014. They drefted Glan Robinson instead. Also, another Nikola, Milutinov is a very good player it would be nice to have him to backup Holmes next year. Maybe we could sell them Dedmon for something and Milutinov's rights.
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No definitely not Jerry Jones because for all the crap that Jerry Jones gets, he's actually a very good GM in terms of drafting. The Cowboys almost always have a loaded roster over the past decade and it's almost all his draft picks. He's actually one of the best drafters in the NFL.
Jerry's problem is that he doesn't allow his head coach to truly be the head coach. As a result you end up with a perennial lame duck coach that doesn't have any real power.
As for Vivek, no I don't trust him to hire the right GM but I'd still be willing to take that gamble just because we know Vlade can't draft and he's going to screw up another draft in 2020.
Jerry's problem is that he doesn't allow his head coach to truly be the head coach. As a result you end up with a perennial lame duck coach that doesn't have any real power.
As for Vivek, no I don't trust him to hire the right GM but I'd still be willing to take that gamble just because we know Vlade can't draft and he's going to screw up another draft in 2020.
Yes, Vlade has been bad so we shouldnt settle for bad just because someone else might be bad too.
If the right thing for the team is to fire Vlade (as it looks to be), his 5m/year salary shouldnt affect that decision. If that 5million/year is a reason not to fire him (as I believe you suggested earlier that its a possibility), then there should be a huge pressure from fans and local media to the owners to sell the team to someone who can pay that extra 5m/year if it benefits the team
If the right thing for the team is to fire Vlade (as it looks to be), his 5m/year salary shouldnt affect that decision. If that 5million/year is a reason not to fire him (as I believe you suggested earlier that its a possibility), then there should be a huge pressure from fans and local media to the owners to sell the team to someone who can pay that extra 5m/year if it benefits the team
Grant Napear was going on and on yesterday on the radio that the draft is mostly just luck and it's not important (you have to develop the players you have). Mostly all just BS spin he's putting out for the organization but it's interesting that some of the fans seem to buy into it.
Only the Kings could get lucky in the draft lottery and move all the way up to #2................only to pass on the consensus #2 (or #1) pick and instead choose a guy who would have been there 2-3 spots later (meaning they could have traded down and picked up another pick).
Makes me wonder had the Kings stayed at #7 or #8 who Vlade would have drafted. Bagley would have been gone so I would imagine they would have taken Michael Porter Jr. and gotten it even more wrong.
Only the Kings could get lucky in the draft lottery and move all the way up to #2................only to pass on the consensus #2 (or #1) pick and instead choose a guy who would have been there 2-3 spots later (meaning they could have traded down and picked up another pick).
Makes me wonder had the Kings stayed at #7 or #8 who Vlade would have drafted. Bagley would have been gone so I would imagine they would have taken Michael Porter Jr. and gotten it even more wrong.
on all the draft boards pre draft ive seen bagley was either 2 or 3, doubt he would have been available 2-3 spots later. also i recently posted a summary of draft boards couple of weeks beford the draft and Luka was anywhere from 2-5. that cannot all be contributed to the board publishers trying to be correct given some rumblings Kings were gonna pick Bagley. and also there was no complete outrage and bad grades by the talking heads post draft that would suggest Vlade went against some clear consensus. I was as dissapointed as anyone when it happened, but what I remember pre draft does not match the descriptions of a clear no brainer everyone agrees scenario where Vlade does the opposite..