The Marvin Bagley thread
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For the range of outcomes, look at our own older bigs who seemed clueless or lost early on. I mentioned Whiteside before, and aside from four years of being pretty awful before being NBA ready - that is really too dang long - he was a good example of BBIQ gain. When it doesn't work out, you get Justin Williams. Huge improvements are uncommon, but so is not learning anything. Becoming neither Olajuwon or Thabeet seems like a definite possibility.
You know it when you see it, at least the guys that have obvious high basketball IQs and the guys that have obvious low ones. Most players fall somewhere in between. Buddy Hield has an obviously low basketball IQ. Chris Paul has an obviously high basketball IQ and we knew it early.
"Court Vision" or simply "anticipation" I think are better terms for what a lot of what people are talking about. Ability to see plays develop ahead of time. Ability to anticipate moves of an offensive player while on defense. Ability to see a pass ahead when making the initial pass.
I don't think those are things you can teach. You either have it or you don't.
"Court Vision" or simply "anticipation" I think are better terms for what a lot of what people are talking about. Ability to see plays develop ahead of time. Ability to anticipate moves of an offensive player while on defense. Ability to see a pass ahead when making the initial pass.
I don't think those are things you can teach. You either have it or you don't.
This is where we disagree the most. Without a doubt there are always people who are better at somethings than others. But it doesn't mean that people can't be taught how to do it. Especially when it's not a physical thing.
This part isn't really directed at you, but your comment made me think about it again. "Know it when I see it" is fine but it lends itself to different measurements. A lot of it ends up being style preference more than actual basketball knowledge that people are judging. On top of that, physical attributes plays a part in that style.
A player that is 6'10 250lbs and can jump out the gym will use his size and strength advantage when playing the game. That is actually the "smart" thing to do. To sit around the 3pt line and dance and throw up shots or wait for little guys to cut would not be using his physical ability wisely. Now coach can say, hey big guy, when you're double teamed, I know you can still score. But keep your head up and throw a few bones to your guards. When the big man kicks it out, now he's smarter in the eyes of the fan who likes to see 3pt shots and wing scoring.
This part isn't really directed at you, but your comment made me think about it again. "Know it when I see it" is fine but it lends itself to different measurements. A lot of it ends up being style preference more than actual basketball knowledge that people are judging. On top of that, physical attributes plays a part in that style.
A player that is 6'10 250lbs and can jump out the gym will use his size and strength advantage when playing the game. That is actually the "smart" thing to do. To sit around the 3pt line and dance and throw up shots or wait for little guys to cut would not be using his physical ability wisely. Now coach can say, hey big guy, when you're double teamed, I know you can still score. But keep your head up and throw a few bones to your guards. When the big man kicks it out, now he's smarter in the eyes of the fan who likes to see 3pt shots and wing scoring.
They can be taught to do it better than they were but it's incremental gains. A dumb player can be taught to play smarter than they were but they're never going to be as smart as those that just have it from the start.
You can't just take Marcus Banks or Leandro Barbosa (both low IQ point-guards but tremendous athletes) who played on the Suns behind Steve Nash and coached by D'Antoni.........and make them smart. The Suns tried with both of them and both were just about as dumb as they were when they came into the league. I remember people thinking Barbosa was going to be an all-star and he was being held back having to play behind Nash. Turns out that Nash just masked most of Barbosa's dumb mistakes when they played together. Without Nash, Barbosa never could run an NBA offense despite playing with perhaps the best PG ever.
JR Smith played quite a bit with LeBron and yet JR Smith is still an incredibly dumb player who only lasted in the league because he can shoot 3's and get the occasional dunk. One would think he would have learned playing with a basketball genius like Lebron.
Same goes for any other sport. You can't teach somebody to anticipate like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Russel Wilson.........that's innate mental ability that you either have or you don't. With time you can further hone/enhance it but you can only work with what you have to start.
You can't just take Marcus Banks or Leandro Barbosa (both low IQ point-guards but tremendous athletes) who played on the Suns behind Steve Nash and coached by D'Antoni.........and make them smart. The Suns tried with both of them and both were just about as dumb as they were when they came into the league. I remember people thinking Barbosa was going to be an all-star and he was being held back having to play behind Nash. Turns out that Nash just masked most of Barbosa's dumb mistakes when they played together. Without Nash, Barbosa never could run an NBA offense despite playing with perhaps the best PG ever.
JR Smith played quite a bit with LeBron and yet JR Smith is still an incredibly dumb player who only lasted in the league because he can shoot 3's and get the occasional dunk. One would think he would have learned playing with a basketball genius like Lebron.
Same goes for any other sport. You can't teach somebody to anticipate like Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, or Russel Wilson.........that's innate mental ability that you either have or you don't. With time you can further hone/enhance it but you can only work with what you have to start.
Brees. ....you forgot Drew Brees...
Ok. A physicist can be smart and capable even if he's not Einstein smart. We're labeling these players as smart or dumb a little too cavalierly in my opinion. Yes, you're Einstein or you're not. Most PGs won't be Jason Kidd, or Magic Johnson. However, players do get better and smarter with experience.
I don't think your comments really take away from my point that how you play the game starts with how you needed to based on your physical attributes and situation.
Ok. A physicist can be smart and capable even if he's not Einstein smart. We're labeling these players as smart or dumb a little too cavalierly in my opinion. Yes, you're Einstein or you're not. Most PGs won't be Jason Kidd, or Magic Johnson. However, players do get better and smarter with experience.
I don't think your comments really take away from my point that how you play the game starts with how you needed to based on your physical attributes and situation.
Everybody forgets about Drew Brees........
I actually did almost list him but then figured 3 names was enough (sorry Drew)
I somewhat agree with you but like I said they can improve but only to an extent. Most players fall somewhere in between anyways. Is Buddy Hield ever going to be a "smart" basketball player though? At this point I think most of us would be thrilled if he even became average in that regard. Probably going to be the same for Bagley, best case he can become average in terms of basketball IQ which is probably fine for someone with his athletic ability........but he's never going to be out there running point-forward.
I actually did almost list him but then figured 3 names was enough (sorry Drew)
I somewhat agree with you but like I said they can improve but only to an extent. Most players fall somewhere in between anyways. Is Buddy Hield ever going to be a "smart" basketball player though? At this point I think most of us would be thrilled if he even became average in that regard. Probably going to be the same for Bagley, best case he can become average in terms of basketball IQ which is probably fine for someone with his athletic ability........but he's never going to be out there running point-forward.
There was a moment yesterday where Holmes rolled and was sitting under the basket for 2 seconds before Buddy got him the ball. Everyone in the gym saw he should have passed it as soon as he rolled. That exemplified for me that Buddy lacks anticipation or was so selfish that he was trying to shoot a 3 even though his 1st option was sitting under the basket wide open
Agree completely. It was enough of a swing that he went from useless in the NBA to quite useful, though he still couldn't play PG at a high school level. I think The Team's greatest strength was the fact that almost all of them had good court vision, and mostly refrained from bad decision making. High assist counts were everybody's doing. I really miss that, but you don't need it at every position to win games. Whether the team as a whole has enough of it to get by is another matter.
I think he could be a plus on the court within 1-2 years, if he can stay uninjured for most of it, and get good coaching. I'm not sure that will happen, though.
I think he could be a plus on the court within 1-2 years, if he can stay uninjured for most of it, and get good coaching. I'm not sure that will happen, though.
listening to grant:
Bagley reminds a caller and grant of a young kevin garnett. Chris Bosh.
Grant: In his opinion, if bagley stays with the kings his jersey will be retired. Bagley has the potential to be a hall of famer.
I saw kevin garnett come into the league. I and my friends could see he was gonna be what he turned out to be. Garnett came in with hype and you could see that he had the game in him. Im not seeing a perennial all star or hall of famer in bagley. I just don't see it..........
I think grant does a HUGE disservice to the kings fan base and Bagley by building him up like this with zero to back it up.
Bagley reminds a caller and grant of a young kevin garnett. Chris Bosh.
Grant: In his opinion, if bagley stays with the kings his jersey will be retired. Bagley has the potential to be a hall of famer.
I saw kevin garnett come into the league. I and my friends could see he was gonna be what he turned out to be. Garnett came in with hype and you could see that he had the game in him. Im not seeing a perennial all star or hall of famer in bagley. I just don't see it..........
I think grant does a HUGE disservice to the kings fan base and Bagley by building him up like this with zero to back it up.
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Grant and Doug were in full propaganda mode today on the radio. Just blatant sellout shilling for the organization with some ridiculous claims and Grant yelling at callers that questioned Vlade or Bagley.
I expect that from a two faced snake like Grant but even Doug has gone into shill mode now, just not as obnoxious about it as Grant.
I expect that from a two faced snake like Grant but even Doug has gone into shill mode now, just not as obnoxious about it as Grant.
I’m no radio Grant fan, but in everyone’s rush to eye roll they missed the most telling part of Grant’s statement. “If Bagley stays with the Kings”—which means the rumblings are already starting behind the scenes. I like Bags a lot. However, I assume he’s out for a while, given the (lack of) news today. If so, he’ll almost assuredly be traded this summer. Unfortunate.
If you haven’t seen it here is a scouting report on KG from an NBA scout. I love it I’m a huge KG guy. The scout nailed it
http://cgscoutperspective.blogspot.com/2011/03/cgs-view-of-kg-kevin-garnett-when-he.html?m=1
http://cgscoutperspective.blogspot.com/2011/03/cgs-view-of-kg-kevin-garnett-when-he.html?m=1
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