Still defending Vlade? (split from game thread)

[The_Jamal]

I'll say. Buddy and Bogi aren't old, but they'll basically be 28 with this team at square one.

Of course Vlade won't do anything about getting younger and won't address the actual concerns with BBIQ, chemistry, etc and ride out his failed experiment for as long as possible.

That's not even saying what's going to happen when we get to the draft....

Sad thing is, I think you could expedite the rebuild decently well just holding onto Fox and Holmes. If you flipped Bogi/Buddy/Bjelica/Bagley, think you could very likely get 2-3 first round picks, a slew of 2nd rounders and possibly some other decent young talent. Add that onto a good lotto pick this year from us sucking, next year from us sucking and in 2 years, could be completely restocked with quality young talent built properly around your star PG and C.

But, more likely than not, Vlade and Co are going to get off scott free this year because of "injuries", we're going pay Bogi and put us in a cap situation where we aren't able to retain Holmes and watch him walk out the door.

 

[steelevt]

I like how a night of back spasms and 1 ankle sprain (returned from remarkably fast) in 3 years has turned into ‘can’t stay healthy.’

Solid work guys! 4 stars. Would read again.

must have been a very long night.

 

[Iced Espresso]

I'm ready to tear it all down. Keep Fox, everything else is optional.

Hire Hinkie.

Rebuild without any weird odd veterans etc, min/max assets for awhile.

 

[Gguod]

This is the thing I always hated about Vlade. He never added any future assets. During a rebuild phase where wins didnt matter, we spent our cap on bad veteran contracts. Now we need to sing our young players to extentions and we have zero extra future assets.

We are currently not good enough to even be a 8th seed team. We simply dont have enough top level talent on the roster and that should've been clear to a gm. On top of that it will be very hard to drastically improve the team due to cap limitations and zero extra future assets. Looks like that since Vlade didnt draft Luka, we are going to have to blow it up again. Sure would be a lot easier to do a quick 1-2 year rebuild if we had couple of extra picks already gathered. This is why drafting and rebuilding correctly matters. Otherwise you end up in a purgatory, not good enough to (seriously) compete and not bad enough to draft at top 3 (where the best value is). Thats where we've been for so damn long and its a horrible situation to be in.

 

[John Galt]

the expression "re-build" has a morbid irony to me. I mean the prefix "re" has a connotation that I don't think quite fits a team that has been in the lottery for about a whole generation. who is kidding who?

How about if they just plain build.

 

[The Effort Police]

Sad thing is, I think you could expedite the rebuild decently well just holding onto Fox and Holmes. If you flipped Bogi/Buddy/Bjelica/Bagley, think you could very likely get 2-3 first round picks, a slew of 2nd rounders and possibly some other decent young talent. Add that onto a good lotto pick this year from us sucking, next year from us sucking and in 2 years, could be completely restocked with quality young talent built properly around your star PG and C.

But, more likely than not, Vlade and Co are going to get off scott free this year because of "injuries", we're going pay Bogi and put us in a cap situation where we aren't able to retain Holmes and watch him walk out the door.

Absolutely they can. I floated this idea around in another thread.

Trade Buddy to Toronto for OG and a 1st, or even just straight up.

Trade Bagley to Chicago for Markannen and/or Carter Jr.

Bogi and Bjelica to Milwaukee for Divincenzo/IND 1st/MIL 1st.

Of course this is Vlade so any trades will be far too late, and he'll purposely take a worse deal and throw in some pick swaps while he's at it.

 

[jellyfish]

Absolutely they can. I floated this idea around in another thread.

Trade Buddy to Toronto for OG and a 1st, or even just straight up.

Trade Bagley to Chicago for Markannen and/or Carter Jr.

Bogi and Bjelica to Milwaukee for Divincenzo/IND 1st/MIL 1st.

Of course this is Vlade so it won't happen.

They should do the Bogi/Bjelly to Philly for Jrich/O'Quinn/whatever makes it work. But didn't Vlade promise not to trade Bjelica and the only reason Bjelly signed was because of it, he wanted something long term which is why apparently he backed out (stupidly) of the Philly deal?

 

[The Effort Police]

This is the thing I always hated about Vlade. He never added any future assets. During a rebuild phase where wins didnt matter, we spent our cap on bad veteran contracts. Now we need to sing our young players to extentions and we have zero extra future assets.

We are currently not good enough to even be a 8th seed team. We simply dont have enough top level talent on the roster and that should've been clear to a gm. On top of that it will be very hard to drastically improve the team due to cap limitations and zero extra future assets. Looks like that since Vlade didnt draft Luka, we are going to have to blow it up again. Sure would be a lot easier to do a quick 1-2 year rebuild if we had couple of extra picks already gathered. This is why drafting and rebuilding correctly matters. Otherwise you end up in a purgatory, not good enough to (seriously) compete and not bad enough to draft at top 3 (where the best value is). Thats where we've been for so damn long and its a horrible situation to be in.

If he did something RIGHT NOW, he could get a jump start on it. But he's going to wait and all the value from these assets is gonna get sucked dry.

 

[est.1999]

This guy no longer gets the benefit of the doubt from me. And since I have never heard a legitimate reason for passing on luka, I’m now in the Fire vlade camp. But this franchise can’t get out of their own way so I’m not even sure how they will ever become a good team ever again.

 

[CelticsFan]

Absolutely they can. I floated this idea around in another thread.

Trade Buddy to Toronto for OG and a 1st, or even just straight up.

Trade Bagley to Chicago for Markannen and/or Carter Jr.

Bogi and Bjelica to Milwaukee for Divincenzo/IND 1st/MIL 1st.

Of course this is Vlade so any trades will be far too late, and he'll purposely take a worse deal and throw in some pick swaps while he's at it.

Sorry just my opinion but I don’t think any of those trades are realistic. Maybe Milwaukee? OG is having a nice season. He’s 22 and is under contract for less than 4 million next year then is a restricted FA. Buddy is 27 and is going to be making $26 million next year. At this point Buddy is a bad contract and it hasn’t even kicked in yet

 

[The Effort Police]

Sorry just my opinion but I don’t think any of those trades are realistic. Maybe Milwaukee? OG is having a nice season. He’s 22 and is under contract for less than 4 million next year then is a restricted FA. Buddy is 27 and is going to be making $26 million next year. At this point Buddy is a bad contract and it hasn’t even kicked in yet

Toronto has to pay VanVleet as well. Buddy at his contract with his shooting ability I don't see as a negative and is someone I feel would be more than enticing to a playoff team like Toronto.

Chicago I absolutely think would move one of their young bigs for Bagley, barring his glassitis being chronic big man foot injuries, and even then who's running the show there but GarPax.

 

[BunkoBob]

Why would any of those teams make those trades, especially Chicago and Toronto?

 

[The Effort Police]

Why would any of those teams make those trades, especially Chicago and Toronto?

Have you seen Markkanen play this year? He hasn't been good. I'm suggesting a change of scenery for him because I believe in his skillset and ability more than Bagley's.

And Wendell Carter Jr. is a quality big but Bagley is still very much the flashier prospect with the higher ceiling (that I don't think he'll reach).

 

[Kings_of_California]

Have you seen Markkanen play this year? He hasn't been good. I'm suggesting a change of scenery for him because I believe in his skillset and ability more than Bagley's.

And Wendell Carter Jr. is a quality big but Bagley is still very much the flashier prospect with the higher ceiling (that I don't think he'll reach).

I've been following some Bulls message boards and the fans believe Markkanen isn't being utilized correctly. They say he's been relegated to pick and pop or catch and shoot when he has a much wider skill set.

I don't know if this is true but from watching some Bulls games I can tell he is awful at setting screens.

In regards to Carter Jr., I like him as a player, but as you said he's not super flashy. He looks like he'll develop into a solid, but unspectacular player. Sort of a low ceiling, high floor type of guy. Right now he is fouling way too much though.

 

[Chupacabra]

Sorry just my opinion but I don’t think any of those trades are realistic. Maybe Milwaukee? OG is having a nice season. He’s 22 and is under contract for less than 4 million next year then is a restricted FA. Buddy is 27 and is going to be making $26 million next year. At this point Buddy is a bad contract and it hasn’t even kicked in yet

Didnt he make more 3's in his first 3 seasons than any player, ever? Wasn't he a top 3 shooter from 3 last year. 30 games into the following season and he's now a bad contract? Most fans are WAYYYY too jumpy.

 

[Joshoua]

I've been following some Bulls message boards and the fans believe Markkanen isn't being utilized correctly. They say he's been relegated to pick and pop or catch and shoot when he has a much wider skill set.

I don't know if this is true but from watching some Bulls games I can tell he is awful at setting screens.

In regards to Carter Jr., I like him as a player, but as you said he's not super flashy. He looks like he'll develop into a solid, but unspectacular player. Sort of a low ceiling, high floor type of guy. Right now he is fouling way too much though.

Bagley/Carter don’t work offensively neither space the floor Chicago isn’t doing that deal

 

[CelticsFan]

Didnt he make more 3's in his first 3 seasons than any player, ever? Wasn't he a top 3 shooter from 3 last year. 30 games into the following season and he's now a bad contract? Most fans are WAYYYY too jumpy.

Buddy has had the greenest of green lights since he stepped foot in this league. I think it’s great he made so many 3’s in his first 3 season but where has that gotten this franchise? It will be interesting to see what Buddy’s legacy will be. An all time great 3 point shooter or an overpaid 6th man. I’m hoping for a all time great but I just don’t see it

 

[Kingster]

It's always that way, though. If you draft Pervis, and he's out of service, you stink. It's not fair, but it's what fans are going to do, we're not going to fondly reminisce about how great he could have been.

I try to keep my own biases out of this sort of thing by looking at performance and nothing else. An average team will squeak into the last playoff slot, since 8 make it and only 7 don't, or more realistically make it into the playoffs slightly over half the time. If that's not happening, one should expect improvement. The current team record is exactly what it was on this day in 2015. Those numbers don't tell me who or what is to blame, but there's obviously something very wrong. The 15 year, all-time NBA playoff drought record is owned by the Donald Sterling Clippers, but we're almost there.

What does 15 years have to do with Vlade and Walton? C'mon.

 

[Kingster]

No, it's Vlade's fault for the following:

Spending:
12mil/season on ZBO
20mil/season on George Hill
8mil/season on Vince Carter
13mil/season on Dewayne Dedmon
12.5mil/season on Trevor Ariza
13mil/season on Cory Joseph
21mil/season on Harrison Barnes for purely average production and impact

-Trading a 1st round pick and losing 2 spots of draft capital for cap space
-Missing on 7 first round picks, with only 1 1st rounder actually contributing to the team right now in 4 years.
-Investing absolutely nothing in the 2nd round during his tenure, basically punting on the 2nd round during his tenure (not buying/trading for 2nd rounders, etc)
-Using absolutely none of his cap space to invest in future picks when the opportunity has arisen almost every year for us to take on a bad contract in return for picks or young talent.
-Firing by far the most successful coach we've had since Adelman only to see us drastically regress this year

So why exactly are we having this discussion after a game in which Fox and Bagley get injured? You're saying it's a coincidence? I don't believe that for a second. This is a childish peevish thread born out of great frustration that has absolutely nothing to do with Vlade and you know it.

I like the Joseph and Ariza picks, Barnes as well. Why? They are grownups who are good enough players who have been on winning teams. Yep, it's worth it to pay up for those guys. And the Holmes pickup is outstanding. Fox ain't bad for a future All Star and Bagley is going to be very good as well. Sure, it's not all good. Heck, I think the Buddy signing for $20 mill/year was over the top. Sure didn't have a lot of people on this board thinking that though. It's a mixed bag, as it usually is with even the best GMs. And what's your plan? To bring back Joerger??? And replace Vlade with who exactly? Nope. I'm not interested in turning the ship around in the middle of Pacific, going back to harbor, putting the ship out to salvage, building a new one from scratch and hiring a new captain to boot. Full speed ahead. Keep the freaking course.

 

[sergmatt]

I'm not interested in turning the ship around in the middle of Pacific, going back to harbor, putting the ship out to salvage, building a new one from scratch and hiring a new captain to boot. Full speed ahead. Keep the freaking course.

Great plan.....except that the ship is being captained by The Gilligan and his course is going to take you to a deserted island (apathy of the fans after yet another losing season).

 

[Kingster]

Great plan.....except that the ship is being captained by The Gilligan and his course is going to take you to a deserted island (apathy of the fans after yet another losing season).

Then I hope you enjoyred Gilligan's Island. The coach isn't going to be changed anytime soon.

 

[sergmatt]

Then I hope you enjoyred Gilligan's Island. The coach isn't going to be changed anytime soon.

I never said Luke was Gilligan, this thread isn't about Luke

 

[Gguod]

So why exactly are we having this discussion after a game in which Fox and Bagley get injured? You're saying it's a coincidence? I don't believe that for a second. This is a childish peevish thread born out of great frustration that has absolutely nothing to do with Vlade and you know it.

Any negative about Vlade has nothing to do with a single player getting injured. Its about his body of work in his whole tenure in here as a gm. A ton of bad contracts, zero additional draft assets added and a some absolutely horrible draft picks and trades.

I like the Joseph and Ariza picks, Barnes as well. Why? They are grownups who are good enough players who have been on winning teams. Yep, it's worth it to pay up for those guys. And the Holmes pickup is outstanding. Fox ain't bad for a future All Star and Bagley is going to be very good as well. Sure, it's not all good.

Good teams usually dont have to use so much money to about average bench contributors like Joseph, Ariza and Dedmond especially when you dont have any star players yet. Thats almost 40mil/per year to rotation players that are very close to replacement level

It's a mixed bag, as it usually is with even the best GMs.

The best GMs wont do as much crucial mistakes as bad GMs (philly trade that was one of the worst trades in the league, drafting Bagley instead of Luka and couple of more better prosects, not being able to add additional future assets, signing veterabs to too big contracts before the team was competitive ect).

And what's your plan? To bring back Joerger??? And replace Vlade with who exactly? Nope. I'm not interested in turning the ship around in the middle of Pacific, going back to harbor, putting the ship out to salvage, building a new one from scratch and hiring a new captain to boot. Full speed ahead. Keep the freaking course.

Its really not hard to replace Vlade with someone more competent. I just hope this time Vivek takes some time and gets it right for once.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Any negative about Vlade has nothing to do with a single player getting injured. Its about his body of work in his whole tenure in here as a gm. A ton of bad contracts, zero additional draft assets added and a some absolutely horrible draft picks and trades.



Good teams usually dont have to use so much money to about average bench contributors like Joseph, Ariza and Dedmond especially when you dont have any star players yet. Thats almost 40mil/per year to rotation players that are very close to replacement level



The best GMs wont do as much crucial mistakes as bad GMs (philly trade that was one of the worst trades in the league, drafting Bagley instead of Luka and couple of more better prosects, not being able to add additional future assets, signing veterabs to too big contracts before the team was competitive

Its really not hard to replace Vlade with someone more competent. I just hope this time Vivek takes some time and gets it right for once.

Whom? Let’s hear some names and perceived contract amounts. There’s a lot of whining, 20/20 hindsighting, and revisionist history in this thread, and zero problem solving. Who is the man or woman that will come in and draft nothing but MVP candidates, sign below-market free agents who outperform their deals, and acquire 1st rounders for salary dumps?

Who is this person and how much will it cost to acquire that person? Please tell.

 

[Chupacabra]

Its really not hard to replace Vlade with someone more competent. I just hope this time Vivek takes some time and gets it right for once.

I like that you speak as though Vlade being fired is a forgone conclusion. I'm going to steal that tactic and use it as it suits me.

 

[Section 101]

Its really not hard to replace Vlade with someone more competent. I just hope this time Vivek takes some time and gets it right for once.

Until you remember he just signed thru 22/23. Easy to spend others money. They arent going to pay Vlade $5 mil plus a year and another GM.

 

[Iced Espresso]

Until you remember he just signed thru 22/23. Easy to spend others money. They arent going to pay Vlade $5 mil plus a year and another GM.

That may be true, but if the wallet is that lean, probably shouldn't run something worth 1.575 billion dollars.

https://www.forbes.com/nba-valuations/list/#tab:overall

 

[Chupacabra]

Buddy has had the greenest of green lights since he stepped foot in this league. I think it’s great he made so many 3’s in his first 3 season but where has that gotten this franchise? It will be interesting to see what Buddy’s legacy will be. An all time great 3 point shooter or an overpaid 6th man. I’m hoping for a all time great but I just don’t see it

So if the team doesnt make the playoffs, none of the team's players played well. Would you agree?

 

[steelevt]

I'm ready to tear it all down. Keep Fox, everything else is optional.

Hire Hinkie.

Rebuild without any weird odd veterans etc, min/max assets for awhile.

I don’t think Kings fans have the patience to trust the process. 2 years in and they’ll be ready to fire Hinkie because we aren’t in the playoffs, a top 4 team by New Year’s Day, or our draft picks aren’t Allstars.

 

[Artur91]

I don’t think Kings fans have the patience to trust the process. 2 years in and they’ll be ready to fire Hinkie because we aren’t in the playoffs, a top 4 team by New Year’s Day, or our draft picks aren’t Allstars.

you asking us to be patient? When we haven’t been a good team since 2003..... that’s almost 2 decades, how much patient must we be???

We want the coach to do his job properly, not much to ask. Just like me if I’m trash at my job my boss will show me door

And we expect our picks to be an all-star because our pick should’ve been an all star(luka)