What comes before picking up the tempo?

VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#1
#1
"...Kings coach Luke Walton is a believer in playing fast, but his desire to slow the Kings down to start the season points to the bigger mission of the franchise, which is to make sure the Kings are competent in half-court offense and defense. If the franchise is ever to emerge from the world of sub-.500 basketball, where it has lived for the past 13 seasons, it starts there..."

https://twitter.com/statuses/1209602735630209024

I gave myself the gift of a subscription to The Athletic for Christmas. Quite possibly the best gift I got all year. They've certainly assembled an impressive list of writers.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#2
#2
tempo has its moments in games but to have that as your identity throughout a 82 game season is not sustainable. The Kings need to continue to develop Fox and Bagley and implement a system that benefits them both and have the rest of the crew follow suit. Kings haven't been good in half court offense since the Adelman era so the fact that Luke is preaching that first and foremost is promising.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#3
#3
kingsboi said:
tempo has its moments in games but to have that as your identity throughout a 82 game season is not sustainable. The Kings need to continue to develop Fox and Bagley and implement a system that benefits them both and have the rest of the crew follow suit. Kings haven't been good in half court offense since the Adelman era so the fact that Luke is preaching that first and foremost is promising.
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And is irrelevant if you don't make the playoffs. They needs wins now which means up tempo. Joerger tried the slow stuff 2 years ago then figured out they need to go fast with Fox. Walton is setting the team back 2 years trying to go slow now.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#4
#4
Section 101 said:
And is irrelevant if you don't make the playoffs. They needs wins now which means up tempo. Joerger tried the slow stuff 2 years ago then figured out they need to go fast with Fox. Walton is setting the team back 2 years trying to go slow now.
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Carmichael Dave had a poll on Twitter that asked which fans would rather have - making the playoffs this year or building a foundation for years to come. Responses were fairly split between the two choices.

You, obviously, want the playoffs. I believe that without a basis of strong fundamentals we'll be one and done at best. Walton seems to be heading the same way - build the foundation and the wins will come.
 
J

Joshoua

All-Star
#5
#5
VF21 said:
Carmichael Dave had a poll on Twitter that asked which fans would rather have - making the playoffs this year or building a foundation for years to come. Responses were fairly split between the two choices.

You, obviously, want the playoffs. I believe that without a basis of strong fundamentals we'll be one and done at best. Walton seems to be heading the same way - build the foundation and the wins will come.
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You easily pick the foundation not some phantom playoff hope or one year wonder. Half court basketball is important and I’m happy Luke is valuing it
 
Sac.Kings

Sac.Kings

All-Star
#6
#6
Playing fast is easy for these guys. They have done it since an early age and have done it in the NBA. As we found out last season though, when teams began to take away the fast pace, we faltered big time. We are not a disciplined team yet in the half court and it shows. Some nights defense is solid, other times it isn’t. Some nights the offense is solid, others it isn’t. We have not figured out how to tie good offense and defense together for the entire game and it’s showing. Some of that is youth and some of it are bad habits. We don’t have a single superstar on this team so unless all of our players are on the same exact page all the time we aren’t going to win games. That’s where we are right now as a team.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#7
#7
Section 101 said:
And is irrelevant if you don't make the playoffs. They needs wins now which means up tempo. Joerger tried the slow stuff 2 years ago then figured out they need to go fast with Fox. Walton is setting the team back 2 years trying to go slow now.
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it's one of those things where they may have to sacrifice wins and the Playoffs for proper player development and executing in a half court rather than getting swept in the first round by the Clippers or Lakers
 
K

kingdivac

All-Star
#10
#10
VF21 said:
Carmichael Dave had a poll on Twitter that asked which fans would rather have - making the playoffs this year or building a foundation for years to come. Responses were fairly split between the two choices.

You, obviously, want the playoffs. I believe that without a basis of strong fundamentals we'll be one and done at best. Walton seems to be heading the same way - build th foundation and the wins will come.
Click to expand...
Merry Christmas.....
At this point one-and-done - please.....anything. This season feels like quicksand and the team is bumbling while trying to champion defense at the cost of offense. They've flipped the coin, but have found less on this other side in results. Their ppg differential has widened - they're not competitive or maybe talented enough.

As for pace, they need to do something to jolt their offense, if not tempo, then they need to attack the basket physically to pick up FTA/FTM which is close to last in the league as well. The fall off on offense has been too much.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#11
#11
To my mind it's a false choice because it begs the question. I don't believe the Kings could achieve the playoffs this year if they resorted to the Joerger run and gun of last year. Sure, there could be a short-term upward blip in the team's performance. Buddy could probably get going with some open shots that he hasn't been able to consistently get in the half court. But that kind of ball isn't sustainable. Eventually, the team is going to have to learn "how to play basketball." So do you learn now, or do you panic and postpone it until next year? I always believe in taking the pain today rather than tomorrow. And it's not like running is forbidden or anything. Walton made it clear at the beginning of the year that he wants to run, in particular off of turnovers or long rebounds. It's just not going to be an offense in which they run at every possession.

P.S. I echo ppine's comment about team defense. They have to start with that as their fundamental building block. If they play good defense, the running game will come "naturally" and not be forced, which is what Walton wants.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#12
#12
kingdivac said:
Merry Christmas.....
At this point one-and-done - please.....anything. This season feels like quicksand and the team is bumbling while trying to champion defense at the cost of offense. They've flipped the coin, but have found less on this other side in results. Their ppg differential has widened - they're not competitive or maybe talented enough.

As for pace, they need to do something to jolt their offense, if not tempo, then they need to attack the basket physically to pick up FTA/FTM which is close to last in the league as well. The fall off on offense has been too much.
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the problem is Bagley and to a lessor extent Fox on Defense. Bench Bagley and force Fox to play defense like he did at the end of the Houston game and this team will make the play-offs. Play Bagley over Holmes and have Buddy guard the other teams best offensive player and it’s another year in the lottery.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#13
#13
VF21 said:
Carmichael Dave had a poll on Twitter that asked which fans would rather have - making the playoffs this year or building a foundation for years to come. Responses were fairly split between the two choices.

You, obviously, want the playoffs. I believe that without a basis of strong fundamentals we'll be one and done at best. Walton seems to be heading the same way - build the foundation and the wins will come.
Click to expand...
Been building the foundation for 12 years now. Really started when drafting Evans. When does it stop? They need to learn to win, doesn't do any good to build a losing foundation.
 
A

Artur91

G-League
#14
#14
The tempo must be set by the players you have, in this case the primary ball handler is Fox, so we should set the tempo that’s better for him(fast).
But in basketball there’s an opponent team that wants to play at their own tempo ( slower or even a faster tempo than us) so they can take you out of your comfort zones. Many times basketball games is entirely based on who’s gonna win the tempo and pace battle in the game. Because if you can make the opponent play the way you want then you have and edge over them.
But mostly we lose the tempo battle cus we don’t have experience players and Fox is not a superstar yet so he can’t impost his pace.

Look at Doncic, when he is on the floor Dallas controls the pace and the tempo of the game. Basically u need a superstar to dominate a game. We don’t have any....yet
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#15
#15
kingsboi said:
it's one of those things where they may have to sacrifice wins and the Playoffs for proper player development and executing in a half court rather than getting swept in the first round by the Clippers or Lakers
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And they will be sacrificing money too when season ticket holders don't renew. Playoffs are a huge money maker for teams. Even just 2 games is worth millions in revenue.

The poll doesn't say anything about trades, so I assume he means play Bagley/force line ups, slow tempo for them to learn which means more losses vs play to their strengths and make them earn minutes.
 
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Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#16
#16
kingsboi said:
tempo has its moments in games but to have that as your identity throughout a 82 game season is not sustainable. The Kings need to continue to develop Fox and Bagley and implement a system that benefits them both and have the rest of the crew follow suit. Kings haven't been good in half court offense since the Adelman era so the fact that Luke is preaching that first and foremost is promising.
Click to expand...
The catch 22 is that the halfcourt game works in the playoffs, which is the goal. But you have to make the playoffs first. What the Kings are doing this season is taking a step back from Dave's uptempo offense of last year and starting over from 3 years ago. Make the playoffs, then you can work on the halfcourt game.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#17
#17
Its not how, its how many.

This team is going to struggle to make the playoffs no matter what strategy they adopt.

They do not have a choice of "sacrificing some wins to build a foundation." That is pure fantasy.
We have a lot of true believers around here who seem to think that the Kings can't win half their games, because of tempo, chemistry, gelling, or some other hocus pocus. They have trouble winning because they have drafted poorly and few players want to play in a small market like Sacto. That makes trades and signing free agents more difficult. The owner doesn't reallly know what he is doing. vlade is doing the best he can. So is the coach.

I enjoy watching the Kings, but I am not confused about where this team is probably headed. Walton may be able to instill some defensive discipline and rebounding desire. You can see both in some games. That will help a lot. The offense is very inconsistent though. The NBA is full of talent. Great players play well almost every night. Good players play well the majority of the time. Average players play well some of the time.

Bagley is kind of a litmus test as a no 2 pick. In his second year he still plays pretty like he is still in college.
He needs to show some progess and development especiallly on the defensive side of the ball.
Dedmon is an example of a free agent that did not pan out.
 
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kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#20
#20
Section 101 said:
And they will be sacrificing money too when season ticket holders don't renew. Playoffs are a huge money maker for teams. Even just 2 games is worth millions in revenue.

The poll doesn't say anything about trades, so I assume he means play Bagley/force line ups, slow tempo for them to learn which means more losses vs play to their strengths and make them earn minutes.
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sacrificing money for the now is one of many reasons why the Kings have the longest Playoff drought in the association.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#21
#21
Showtime said:
The catch 22 is that the halfcourt game works in the playoffs, which is the goal. But you have to make the playoffs first. What the Kings are doing this season is taking a step back from Dave's uptempo offense of last year and starting over from 3 years ago. Make the playoffs, then you can work on the halfcourt game.
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that's not a successful formula. establishing offensive and defensive principles throughout the season, in training camp and the offseason and IF you get to the Playoffs, then teams make adjustments game to game anyways if they find themselves in a hole.
 
P

ppine

Starter
#22
#22
kingsboi,
With all due respect.
Proper player development and executing in the half court do not penalize a team. It does not cost them wins. It helps them increase their amount of wins.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#23
#23
I thought it was a bad plan from the start. Walton is looking way too far ahead. This team barely has the fringe talent to squeak in as the 8th seed and he's trying to set them up to make a deep playoff run? At the expense of making the playoffs? I just don't agree with this.

Just make the damn playoffs please. I don't care if it winds up being a first round sweep by the Clippers. The fans are still going to give these guys a standing ovation just for making the playoffs. Walton will be touted as the best coach we've had since Adelman and everyone will be happier than they've been in years.

Then....they can concentrate on half court sets and work on getting deeper in the playoffs.

Remember, during the first 4 or 5 years of those playoff runs with Adelman, the Kings were 1st or 2nd in pace every year. It seemed like the pace slowed down from JWill to Bibby but they still led the league in pace with Bibby. The main difference was the offensive and defensive efficiency went way up when they added Bibby plus the role players. They went from middle of the road in both categories to nearly top of the league in both. All while still playing fast.

Obviously you need to play well in the half court to have success at the NBA level but I just don't see the need for a franchise starved to make the playoffs to get so far ahead of itself. One step at a time please.
 
MizzouKing

MizzouKing

Starter
#25
#25
I'm usually a Development guy, but I voted for a playoff appearance in Dave's poll. We have been "building a foundation" for years now, across coaching changes and player trades. I'm at the point where I believe this franchise needs a win, and susoect that would do more for our current development efforts than more public "investment in the process."
 
Showtime

Showtime

Starter
#26
#26
ppine said:
The ability for a coach to "look ahead" is a huge asset.
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Not when they nor the GM will be around for the payoff.

This team needs to win. Now. If that means running and gunning just to taste the postseason then work on the halfcourt game, that's a sacrifice that will pay dividends. It is much easier to get a team that is winning games to buy into the coach and the group than it is for a struggling team.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Starter
#27
#27
Section 101 said:
And they will be sacrificing money too when season ticket holders don't renew. Playoffs are a huge money maker for teams. Even just 2 games is worth millions in revenue.

The poll doesn't say anything about trades, so I assume he means play Bagley/force line ups, slow tempo for them to learn which means more losses vs play to their strengths and make them earn minutes.
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Section 101 and I have 4 of the very best seats you can buy in the arena and it would be crazy to let them go. But they are teetering so close to that place where a ticket buyer is worn down... worn down enough to shrug it off and not have "Kings Season Ticket Holder" as part of the lifestyle profile anymore. It is becoming less and less worth it.

If he, or I, or both - let tickets go this renewal... it will be crazy - but they have drove us there with constant re-sets. Constantly being a step away from being a step away.

No doubt Carmichael Dave would love nothing more than for Hinkie to come along as GM and gut the whole thing, lose for 5 years - and put together his dream perennial champion so he could have his parade. And his echo chamber of twitter minions will bias toward that same point of view. He's been spouting it for years now - we know where he stands. Fantasy land. What has anybody seen from Luke or Vlade or Vivek to make them believe that "this time it is for real"... any more than it was with Joerger teaching the grind two years ago to the chagrin of everybody.

I do not trust Luke, or Vlade, or Vivek. It's a dark place but they have spewed away three good. coaches since Vivek has been in charge, with NOTHING but "we'll get em next year" fantasies to show for it.

It is all fine - they can do it without my season ticket money. Vivek has slowly but surely eroded the passion out of his old hard core paying fan base. I hope it works out.
 
John Galt

John Galt

Starter
#29
#29
Livinthedream said:
This team has been trying to take a shortcut to the 8th seed for quite a few years now. Starting with that 1st round draft pick giveaway to Philly. Hasn't quite worked out.
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What in the world does that even mean? You mean like overpaying a FA vet to put us over the top into the playoffs instead of developing a young core? Because I have not seen any sign of an over-eager "win now" move really during Vivek's whole time. In fact he's done the opposite - always a ridiculous new long term plan two years into the old one.

What are you referencing as a "shortcut to the 8th seed" I'm truly curious because I have not seen anything that made me think "shortcut". The Barnes trade???
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#30
#30
John Galt said:
What in the world does that even mean? You mean like overpaying a FA vet to put us over the top into the playoffs instead of developing a young core? Because I have not seen any sign of an over-eager "win now" move really during Vivek's whole time. In fact he's done the opposite - always a ridiculous new long term plan two years into the old one.

What are you referencing as a "shortcut to the 8th seed" I'm truly curious because I have not seen anything that made me think "shortcut". The Barnes trade???
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The Philly trade was an effort to clear cap space to sign a big name free agent (Wesley Matthews) and get the team into the playoff hunt. Gave up a 1st round lottery pick for that. Pipe dream/shortcut. Should have been building through the draft, not free agency.

Trading in Malone for what eventually became George Karl was a Shortcut.

Sure the Barnes trade was a shortcut too. And I really like Barnes. But the "core" of the team was not ready and needed more time to gel and learn to be pros. Picking up Barnes sped up expectations, which has led to signing veteran role players who are stunting growth instead of helping the young players. It's not the role players fault. They are there to compete. But if the vision was of Fox, Bagley and Giles running the court together then that got thrown out the window the minute the organization sniffed some success. They weren't patient enough to see their vision through.

Now everyone is in panic mode. If I were an opposing GM, I'd be throwing all kinds of trade deals the Kings way right now.
 
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