Reviewing Bagley v Luka
- Thread starter Kangztillidie
- Start date
This is the take that should end the argument and stop Luka from being mentioned on this board in the 2019-20 season (excluding normal game threads)
Can we be adults and commit to that? And stop bashing a kid who will be one of the stars of the sport we love.
And more importantly so that we can properly relish (without any negativity) our alien with superstar upside in Bagley.
Can we be adults and commit to that? And stop bashing a kid who will be one of the stars of the sport we love.
And more importantly so that we can properly relish (without any negativity) our alien with superstar upside in Bagley.
I have always been on the Bagley band wagon and he is starting to show what I believed he would.
We needed a good player who fills up the stat sheet. I don’t think we have had a player like him since Webber was here.
Give this young star a few years and he just may go down as one of the best draft selections the kings have ever made.
We needed a good player who fills up the stat sheet. I don’t think we have had a player like him since Webber was here.
Give this young star a few years and he just may go down as one of the best draft selections the kings have ever made.
you just made me realize when you listed all those guys... none of the top 5 or their fans should be saying "aw, we only got x guy out of this draft". all those teams and their fans should be elated that they got any of them. it's dumb to quibble over whether Luka is generational and transformational and the other 4 are something less than that. they're all really really really good.
Luka and Marvin are both going to be great, along with quite a few other players from their draft class. ‘twas a helluva year to be in the lottery.
That said, I’m still curious about the future of the Mavs’ roster construction. Doncic and Porzingis will make for a fantastic top of the depth chart... but will they have any worthwhile help? Dallas has accomplished quite the second-half-of-the-season tank job to position themselves to keep their first rounder this year. Maybe they don’t have to trade it away and they bring in a quality young player. Maybe they sign another star. Maybe Porzingis stays healthy and fears about his fragility are unfounded. But... maybe none of that happens. One certainly can’t say that Mark Cuban isn’t willing to gamble!
That said, I’m still curious about the future of the Mavs’ roster construction. Doncic and Porzingis will make for a fantastic top of the depth chart... but will they have any worthwhile help? Dallas has accomplished quite the second-half-of-the-season tank job to position themselves to keep their first rounder this year. Maybe they don’t have to trade it away and they bring in a quality young player. Maybe they sign another star. Maybe Porzingis stays healthy and fears about his fragility are unfounded. But... maybe none of that happens. One certainly can’t say that Mark Cuban isn’t willing to gamble!
What sticks out to me with that roster is the lack of outside shooting. Even replacing Cauley-Stein with Vucevic doesn't really fix that. It also isn't a lineup that plays to De'Aaron's strengths. And of course who knows if Beli and Yogi are signed if Doncic were the pick? Definitely can't say Barnes would have still been traded to the Kings in that scenario.
I liked both Doncic and Bagley a lot in this draft. I ended up with a slight preference for Bagley just based on fit, but Doncic has been even better than I expected, and I expected him to be very good. I think he would have succeeded anywhere but Carlisle's system is actually ideal for him and probably the best fit among the teams at the top of the lottery. And you only have to look at Dennis Smith Jr's regression this season to get an idea of how Fox might have been affected by being off the ball a lot more often. Maybe Joerger could have found a way to make it work but given that Carlisle's system works well with multiple ballhandlers and lots of P&Rs and DSJ still struggled with Luka more on ball I have serious doubts.
Porzingis should actually be a great compliment to Doncic, at least on offense. But we've already seen that Bagley is a great compliment to Fox.
I think things worked out for both teams.
I liked both Doncic and Bagley a lot in this draft. I ended up with a slight preference for Bagley just based on fit, but Doncic has been even better than I expected, and I expected him to be very good. I think he would have succeeded anywhere but Carlisle's system is actually ideal for him and probably the best fit among the teams at the top of the lottery. And you only have to look at Dennis Smith Jr's regression this season to get an idea of how Fox might have been affected by being off the ball a lot more often. Maybe Joerger could have found a way to make it work but given that Carlisle's system works well with multiple ballhandlers and lots of P&Rs and DSJ still struggled with Luka more on ball I have serious doubts.
Porzingis should actually be a great compliment to Doncic, at least on offense. But we've already seen that Bagley is a great compliment to Fox.
I think things worked out for both teams.
I remember predraft looking at the history of #1 and #2 picks over the last 20 years and very rarely did both guys become all-star caliber players. I think maybe twice? More often one was a bust, and it was much more often the #2 pick.
Both Ayton and Bagley have all-star potential. But so do Doncic, Jackson Jr and Young. Beyond the top five, Carter Jr, Sexton, Knox, and Gilgeous-Alexander have also looked fantastic. The closest thing to a "bust" might be Mo Bamba but it's WAY too early to say that about a kid that came in as a long term project and who was derailed by injury. Not only is this a stacked draft class that will go down as a great one, there are so few misses in the lottery that I can't believe it. Even Porter Jr still has a chance to be a very good player if he gets completely healthy. Crazy.
Both Ayton and Bagley have all-star potential. But so do Doncic, Jackson Jr and Young. Beyond the top five, Carter Jr, Sexton, Knox, and Gilgeous-Alexander have also looked fantastic. The closest thing to a "bust" might be Mo Bamba but it's WAY too early to say that about a kid that came in as a long term project and who was derailed by injury. Not only is this a stacked draft class that will go down as a great one, there are so few misses in the lottery that I can't believe it. Even Porter Jr still has a chance to be a very good player if he gets completely healthy. Crazy.
If we're talking advanced stats, Doncic has completely ran away with it. Bagley isn't even in the same hemisphere as him at the moment.
A week of good ball from Bagley and a week and a half of inconsistent ball from Doncic doesn't mean that the axis has shifted and Bagley is all the sudden the best rookie. Bagley has been playing very well since he came back from his injury but Doncic is a much better player at this point in time. It's really not even a debate this year at all. Could possibly be next year.
A week of good ball from Bagley and a week and a half of inconsistent ball from Doncic doesn't mean that the axis has shifted and Bagley is all the sudden the best rookie. Bagley has been playing very well since he came back from his injury but Doncic is a much better player at this point in time. It's really not even a debate this year at all. Could possibly be next year.
First point, I don’t think you read clearly. I said it was a ‘pre-draft’ video.
Secondly, I said we’re starting to see it trend in the direction they saw it way back then. And it is trending in that direction.
Thirdly, IDK what you’re watching but Bagley has been playing very well for months now. Not just a week and half. Not sure where that’s coming from.
Lastly, Doncic has put up numbers all season as the featured player on a really bad team. Good for him. He can have ROY based upon that. I’m not contesting that point. I couldn’t care less, really. I care about the future and who the best player/fit is going to be.
Right now, MB3 has been trending up significantly and adjusting very well to how teams are trying to play him. Doncic has been trending down and not adjusting as well as MB3 has. Most of all, Donicic isn’t leading his team to wins. He’s just piling up meaningless stats while MB3 has been a big reason why the KINGS are hovering at or above .500 all season.
I’ll take that ‘stat’ every day and all day above any ‘advanced’ stat you want to throw out there. MB3 has run away with helping a team win.
Secondly, I said we’re starting to see it trend in the direction they saw it way back then. And it is trending in that direction.
Thirdly, IDK what you’re watching but Bagley has been playing very well for months now. Not just a week and half. Not sure where that’s coming from.
Lastly, Doncic has put up numbers all season as the featured player on a really bad team. Good for him. He can have ROY based upon that. I’m not contesting that point. I couldn’t care less, really. I care about the future and who the best player/fit is going to be.
Right now, MB3 has been trending up significantly and adjusting very well to how teams are trying to play him. Doncic has been trending down and not adjusting as well as MB3 has. Most of all, Donicic isn’t leading his team to wins. He’s just piling up meaningless stats while MB3 has been a big reason why the KINGS are hovering at or above .500 all season.
I’ll take that ‘stat’ every day and all day above any ‘advanced’ stat you want to throw out there. MB3 has run away with helping a team win.
Saying MB3 is adjusting might be generous. Let’s face it, Marvin’s skills were so rudimentary he is just adding skills many already had. Being able to go left or right instead of just left, I suppose could be adjusting but most NBA players can go either direction.
Doncic’s challenge is he is already so skilled he can’t really add too much more to his game.
Doncic’s challenge is he is already so skilled he can’t really add too much more to his game.
They will both be great. The difference is which one will help his team to the most wins, playoffs, champion.
Really can’t compare right now. Bagley has a lot more talent around him than Doncic has. Doncic is doubled and tripled
Every night. Bagley is rarely doubled.
Once Doncic has Porzingas and some semblance of a frontcourt, shooters and spacing, he will be even more lethal.
People like to compare Bagley to Bosh or Durant. He could be either.
But at the end of the day: Bosh doesn’t win any championships without Wade and Lebron.
Durant wins nothing without Curry or Klay.
People that say Doncic has reached his ceiling don’t know basketball period.
They don’t realize: Dallas stinks right now,
The kid is 19. Saying Doncic hit his ceiling at 19? Please, put down the drink. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Really can’t compare right now. Bagley has a lot more talent around him than Doncic has. Doncic is doubled and tripled
Every night. Bagley is rarely doubled.
Once Doncic has Porzingas and some semblance of a frontcourt, shooters and spacing, he will be even more lethal.
People like to compare Bagley to Bosh or Durant. He could be either.
But at the end of the day: Bosh doesn’t win any championships without Wade and Lebron.
Durant wins nothing without Curry or Klay.
People that say Doncic has reached his ceiling don’t know basketball period.
They don’t realize: Dallas stinks right now,
The kid is 19. Saying Doncic hit his ceiling at 19? Please, put down the drink. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
Now that we have Harrison Barnes, this whole discussion feels pointless even as a hypothetical. I'm still a little shocked that Dallas dumped him for nothing and that we managed to fill our biggest need in exchange for Zach Randolph's expiring contract and Justin Jackson. That SF spot has been an ongoing problem for a decade and it was starting to look like we'd never solve it. The only way that trade happens is with Doncic going to Dallas in the draft. So everything else aside, I would rather have Bagley and Barnes than just Luka...
I don't think that's how they drew it up on draft night but we're on a pretty good run of things working out for us. We weren't supposed to have that #5 pick that became Fox or the #2 pick that became Bagley. That's already a run of good luck that dwarfs anything else in the Sacramento era. But Dallas deciding to kill Barnes' trade value and then dump him mid-season right before a free agent bonanza when all the big market teams would rather hoard their cap space and dream about KD, Klay, Kawhi, and Kyrie was almost too good to be true. I think Luka is a fantastic player but when the basketball gods give us three gifts in a row like this, we probably shouldn't be complaining about anything.
I don't think that's how they drew it up on draft night but we're on a pretty good run of things working out for us. We weren't supposed to have that #5 pick that became Fox or the #2 pick that became Bagley. That's already a run of good luck that dwarfs anything else in the Sacramento era. But Dallas deciding to kill Barnes' trade value and then dump him mid-season right before a free agent bonanza when all the big market teams would rather hoard their cap space and dream about KD, Klay, Kawhi, and Kyrie was almost too good to be true. I think Luka is a fantastic player but when the basketball gods give us three gifts in a row like this, we probably shouldn't be complaining about anything.
Doncic had talent around him throughout most the season — up until the trade deadline. Solid veterans, which was what helped him get off to a fast start. So he was not doubled and tripled every night as you claim.
Now, post trade they certainly have less to work with. But still not totally devoid of talent. In fact, before they went on this recent tank expedition — they won several games w/o #77 in the lineup.
Lastly, it’s easy to pull out the ‘he has less to work with’ card to justify. But would it be right to claim Buddy Hield is on par or better than Steph Curry using the same logic —- that Curry has more talent around him?? Bagley can be on a better team and still be the better or more impactful player.
Now, post trade they certainly have less to work with. But still not totally devoid of talent. In fact, before they went on this recent tank expedition — they won several games w/o #77 in the lineup.
Lastly, it’s easy to pull out the ‘he has less to work with’ card to justify. But would it be right to claim Buddy Hield is on par or better than Steph Curry using the same logic —- that Curry has more talent around him?? Bagley can be on a better team and still be the better or more impactful player.
That is all I care about. Long term. I don't care who wins ROY, etc., I want the best player (with the best fit for this team) long-term. That's why I don't get all the hand-wringing either way. The jury is still out, but Bagley is playing better and better and appears to be becoming the Fox running mate that the Kings FO was hoping he'd become. And the Kings are winning a LOT more games than both the Suns and the Mavs (with two of the other "star" picks). Yes, injuries, etc., have played a role for all 3 teams. But I like where our team is headed.
Oh please. To even get 19 shots up in the NBA is not to be dismissed, unless you think somebody is chucking 30 footers. Ya know what a mediocre player having a bad game is? Look at Willie's goose egg last night. Fox had a poor shooting night with 3-12 and ended up with 13/9/4. Bags shot 5-13 and still had a double double. Why? Because they are GOOD PLAYERS. A scrub wouldn't be able to even get 19 shots and still put up numbers. Star players' off games are "good games" for average players. That was my original point, and you've done nothing to contradict that.
I'm not exaggerating his performance on the night, but pointing out the difference between mediocre players and stars. And yes, it was one game, which is probably why nobody has mentioned his follow up performance with a triple double on the road to beat the best team in the league.
The whole discussion on this topic is absurd. Both guys could end up as all stars from this class. If some people like Luka better, then fine and vice versa.
I'm not exaggerating his performance on the night, but pointing out the difference between mediocre players and stars. And yes, it was one game, which is probably why nobody has mentioned his follow up performance with a triple double on the road to beat the best team in the league.
The whole discussion on this topic is absurd. Both guys could end up as all stars from this class. If some people like Luka better, then fine and vice versa.