Bogi and Harden

sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#1
#1
Bogi has struggled this year but I think some of it has to do with working on his step back. Bogi started looking to improve it last year but the two surgeries this summer really hindered his development. As a result, Bogi is still trying to perfect the timing and balance during the season.

I hope Bogi limits his international commitments this summer to work on his game and refine his step back. Harden should be his model in terms of timing and distance going back and distance forward on the shot. If you think about it, Bogi has not had a full summer healthy and no international commitments to focus on skill development in 4 or 5 years.
 
R

regularkingsfan

G-League
#2
#2
I read somewhere that Harden has elite deceleration speed. I think it was an article on The Athletic.

That's what makes Harden's step back pullup so deadly. You can copy his move but not his timing, unless you have similar deceleration speed. I don't think Bogi has that. It is very likely that Bogi is not an efficient high usage scorer.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#3
#3
regularkingsfan said:
I read somewhere that Harden has elite deceleration speed. I think it was an article on The Athletic.

That's what makes Harden's step back pullup so deadly. You can copy his move but not his timing, unless you have similar deceleration speed. I don't think Bogi has that. It is very likely that Bogi is not an efficient high usage scorer.
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Interesting point. I had not heard that attribute
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#6
#6
regularkingsfan said:
I read somewhere that Harden has elite deceleration speed. I think it was an article on The Athletic.

That's what makes Harden's step back pullup so deadly. You can copy his move but not his timing, unless you have similar deceleration speed. I don't think Bogi has that. It is very likely that Bogi is not an efficient high usage scorer.
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Just as a follow-on to that point, Luka has a very good step back and also has above average deceleration speeds. Wonder if teams will start to measure that more closely.
 
B

burekijogurt

Starter
#7
#7
sactowndog said:
Bogi has struggled this year but I think some of it has to do with working on his step back. Bogi started looking to improve it last year but the two surgeries this summer really hindered his development. As a result, Bogi is still trying to perfect the timing and balance during the season.

I hope Bogi limits his international commitments this summer to work on his game and refine his step back. Harden should be his model in terms of timing and distance going back and distance forward on the shot. If you think about it, Bogi has not had a full summer healthy and no international commitments to focus on skill development in 4 or 5 years.
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FIBA Basketball World Cup (to give the tournament's full name) is this summer and if Serbia qualifies I have a hard time not seeing him there.
This is not a comment on whether he should or should not, just an opinion that I think he will play this summer.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#8
#8
What is unusual about Harden is not just his deceleration speed, but also the fact that the guy plays on his toes or the balls of his feet. Watch him prance around the floor and you won't see the typical heal-toe run, but instead a toe-toe run. It could be that this helps him a lot in his deceleration. He's more like a ballerina on the court, and ballerinas do have a tremendous amount of control when it comes to positioning their bodies. I'm curious how all that weight of his and running on the balls of his feet is going to affect the health of his feet on a long term basis. But so far it doesn't seem to have had any problems.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#9
#9
burekijogurt said:
FIBA Basketball World Cup (to give the tournament's full name) is this summer and if Serbia qualifies I have a hard time not seeing him there.
This is not a comment on whether he should or should not, just an opinion that I think he will play this summer.
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Yeah I know. There is zero chance Serbia doesn’t qualify. I think he will play but for the Kings sake I hope he doesn’t. Next summer will be Olympic Qualifying and the next summer the Olympic Games and he for sure won’t skip those summers.
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#10
#10
Kingster said:
What is unusual about Harden is not just his deceleration speed, but also the fact that the guy plays on his toes or the balls of his feet. Watch him prance around the floor and you won't see the typical heal-toe run, but instead a toe-toe run. It could be that this helps him a lot in his deceleration. He's more like a ballerina on the court, and ballerinas do have a tremendous amount of control when it comes to positioning their bodies. I'm curious how all that weight of his and running on the balls of his feet is going to affect the health of his feet on a long term basis. But so far it doesn't seem to have had any problems.
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Not to derail but this is how I have always walked/ran, on my toes and the balls of my feet. It does give a lot of control for direction, stopping and starting, and I think better upper body control/contortion.

It somehow came naturally, not something I sought out. But it helps tremendously zipping and weaving around people in a busy/dangerous kitchen setting.

On Bogdan, I completely understand and respect a player wanting to play for their National teams, etc. I also personally want him to be healthy and improving for what I hope to be a good run over the next several years for our Kings.

The step back is/would be a good tool for anyone that can pull it off. However I would not put all my training eggs in just that one basket. He is too well rounded and I would hope keeps sharpening all his talents rather than getting tunnel vision regarding "The Step Back"

I have noticed he is trying it more and more often, and so far, the results have been mixed at best.
 
E

ESP47

All-Star
#11
#11
I think Bogie is just in a bad shooting slump. I was actually pretty happy to see him go 5-11 from distance in the rising stars game. Even though there was barely any defense played, he hasn't been able to hit wide open looks in games for quite some time now. We know this guy is a good shooter and he hasn't changed his game up very much from last year. He shot 39% from 3 to start the season which is around what I expected him to shoot on the year but that has decreased each month. February he's sitting at 17% for the month which is killing the Kings because he's supposed to be their 2nd or 3rd best 3 point shooter. All we need him to do is hone in that shot again because his defense is too poor to have him out there clanking shots all game.
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#12
#12
ESP47 said:
I think Bogie is just in a bad shooting slump. I was actually pretty happy to see him go 5-11 from distance in the rising stars game. Even though there was barely any defense played, he hasn't been able to hit wide open looks in games for quite some time now. We know this guy is a good shooter and he hasn't changed his game up very much from last year. He shot 39% from 3 to start the season which is around what I expected him to shoot on the year but that has decreased each month. February he's sitting at 17% for the month which is killing the Kings because he's supposed to be their 2nd or 3rd best 3 point shooter. All we need him to do is hone in that shot again because his defense is too poor to have him out there clanking shots all game.
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I think his defense can be pretty good when he is engaged. He knows how to body up with his lower body to avoid fouls.
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#14
#14
Suicide King said:
Not to derail but this is how I have always walked/ran, on my toes and the balls of my feet. It does give a lot of control for direction, stopping and starting, and I think better upper body control/contortion.

It somehow came naturally, not something I sought out. But it helps tremendously zipping and weaving around people in a busy/dangerous kitchen setting.

On Bogdan, I completely understand and respect a player wanting to play for their National teams, etc. I also personally want him to be healthy and improving for what I hope to be a good run over the next several years for our Kings.

The step back is/would be a good tool for anyone that can pull it off. However I would not put all my training eggs in just that one basket. He is too well rounded and I would hope keeps sharpening all his talents rather than getting tunnel vision regarding "The Step Back"

I have noticed he is trying it more and more often, and so far, the results have been mixed at best.
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Well, his step-back buzzer beater did win us one game this year against the most disgusting team in the league. I'll take a few misses along the way :p
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#15
#15
TaxMan said:
Well, his step-back buzzer beater did win us one game this year against the most disgusting team in the league. I'll take a few misses along the way :p
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I think it will get better and he is definitely working on it and uses it way more than last year. But two knee sugeries this summer had to slow his progression down.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#17
#17
Bogs is too stiff in his movements to have an array of offensive moves, in my opinion. He can work on that step back all he wants but truth be told, that's not a high percentage shot and he can do better than that by using his wide shoulders and long arms to work on a hook in the paint or bump the defender off of him to release his shot easier.
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#18
#18
kingsboi said:
Bogs is too stiff in his movements to have an array of offensive moves, in my opinion. He can work on that step back all he wants but truth be told, that's not a high percentage shot and he can do better than that by using his wide shoulders and long arms to work on a hook in the paint or bump the defender off of him to release his shot easier.
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I don't really like it either (with the exception of the game winner against the lakers). I feel like at some point after about 15 games this year the analytics department got in the ear of the team and pushed the three point shot. It just seemed like we were attacking the rim less and really hunting for the three ball. Bogi in particular has been given free reign to bomb away. I think it's made him a much less effective player than we see when he's really running a balanced attack. I love the three ball when it's used as part of a balanced attack, even if it's shot at a high clip. However, there are games this year where it feels like Bogi is really settling for threes and I think he's much better than that.
 
R

regularkingsfan

G-League
#19
#19
KingsSelecao

KingsSelecao

Bench
#20
#20
You lost me at Bogi and Harden.

Harden is flat out one of the best ISO players Ever to play the game. HOF’er 1st Ballot.

Bogi has neither the skill set or BbIQ to even try to emulate Harden.

I like Bogi, but he’s nothing more than a decent role player.

Bogi will also be 28 next year. He’s already hit his ceiling.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#21
#21
Compare his stats from last year to this year:

Pull up attempts 2pt land
'17-18: 50% from 2pt on 2.4 attempts
'18-19: 44.4% from 2pt on 2.7 attempts

Pull up attempts from 3pt land
'17-18: 39.3% from 3pt on 1.4 attempts
'18-19: 28.7% from 3pt on 2.1 attempts

Catch and shoot from 3pt
'17-18: 39.4% on 2.8 attempts
'18-19: 36.2% on 3.4 attempts


In general, it looks like he's struggling with his shot everywhere, not just step backs. He's shooting worse on pull up 2pters by 5.6%. He's also shooting a horrendous 28.7% on pull up 3s.... down 10.6% from his previous year. His catch and shoot is down 3.2% from last year.
 
SacKings123

SacKings123

G-League
#22
#22
KingsSelecao said:
You lost me at Bogi and Harden.

Harden is flat out one of the best ISO players Ever to play the game. HOF’er 1st Ballot.

Bogi has neither the skill set or BbIQ to even try to emulate Harden.

I like Bogi, but he’s nothing more than a decent role player.

Bogi will also be 28 next year. He’s already hit his ceiling.
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Steven Nash won MVP at age 31 and 30.
Manu ginobli had his best NBA season stat wise at age 30.
I don’t believe Bogdan hit his ceiling yet and you can tell he’s still hungry to learn and improve on his game.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#25
#25
KingsSelecao said:
You lost me at Bogi and Harden.

Harden is flat out one of the best ISO players Ever to play the game. HOF’er 1st Ballot.

Bogi has neither the skill set or BbIQ to even try to emulate Harden.

I like Bogi, but he’s nothing more than a decent role player.

Bogi will also be 28 next year. He’s already hit his ceiling.
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This is far from true in terms of skill or BBIQ...

Another poster may have hit on the head however in terms of deceleration. The athletic just posted a story on Doncic and deceleration. Here is a short except from it:

James Harden is P3’s “icon athlete,” Elliott says, but Doncic might be next. Harden and Doncic comparisons existed before Doncic was even drafted, but they accelerated because of the similarities in their stepback jumpers. Ironically, it’s the deceleration that makes them so similar. Harden tests in the 99th percentile when he puts on the brakes, while Doncic ranks only slightly below him, in the low 90th percentile.
 
Chupacabra

Chupacabra

Starter
#26
#26
sactowndog said:
Just as a follow-on to that point, Luka has a very good step back and also has above average deceleration speeds. Wonder if teams will start to measure that more closely.
Click to expand...
Did you read a measurement of his deceleration speed? Source please. Im not at all convinced that Bogi doesnt possess the deceleration speed needed to make good use of a step-back jumper. I would guess that him being injured in general, added to whatever is going on with his foot, are what has caused him to struggle a little. He also is no longer in the position where we need him to score for lack of other options.
 
sactowndog

sactowndog

All-Star
#27
#27
Chupacabra said:
Did you read a measurement of his deceleration speed? Source please. Im not at all convinced that Bogi doesnt possess the deceleration speed needed to make good use of a step-back jumper. I would guess that him being injured in general, added to whatever is going on with his foot, are what has caused him to struggle a little. He also is no longer in the position where we need him to score for lack of other options.
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P3. You can look up interviews of them or read it in the Atlantic. Don’t know if Bogi has their deceleration speed. He has the BBIQ but it might not matter.
 
N

Nokidding

Bench
#28
#28
Bogi just needs to stop playing low IQ hero ball (he has above average IQ in general), if he is suffering from an injury/reduced speed as some claim even more reason for him to have the ball less and play off the ball/posting smaller guards which he's super at and let Yogi/Fox/Burks create for him. Joerger needs to take the green light away from him only guy on the team that should have the green light is Buddy because he rarely takes shots after dribbling the air out of the ball.
 
Sac.1989

Sac.1989

Starter
#29
#29
ESP47 said:
I think Bogie is just in a bad shooting slump. I was actually pretty happy to see him go 5-11 from distance in the rising stars game. Even though there was barely any defense played, he hasn't been able to hit wide open looks in games for quite some time now. We know this guy is a good shooter and he hasn't changed his game up very much from last year. He shot 39% from 3 to start the season which is around what I expected him to shoot on the year but that has decreased each month. February he's sitting at 17% for the month which is killing the Kings because he's supposed to be their 2nd or 3rd best 3 point shooter. All we need him to do is hone in that shot again because his defense is too poor to have him out there clanking shots all game.
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Everyone on the kings has quote on quote stated he is a lights out shooter and can shoot the hell out of the ball. He's in a slump but should get out it, as you say he's just got to hone his shot. Buddy and him should be going hard after practice every day
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#30
#30
Sac.1989 said:
Everyone on the kings has quote on quote stated he is a lights out shooter and can shoot the hell out of the ball. He's in a slump but should get out it, as you say he's just got to hone his shot. Buddy and him should be going hard after practice every day
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Kind of hard on the road but I'm guessing they're both doing everything they can.
 
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