i've addressed who I wanted in the draft. as far as evaluating the front office as it pertains to the #2 pick, relative comparison between Bagely and Doncic or any other player is irrelevant in my opinion. We all know that there have been a lot of #2 picks who have turned out to be not that good. As long as Bagely becomes a very good player I will consider it a successful pick. There was a pool of players available. Did we get one of the very good ones? If the answer is yes, then Vlade and company get a thumbs up from me.
Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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I think it’s a way of proving that those folks with a “negative” view on the pick are being more objective than those with a “positive”. So, yes.
That’s your opinion that what has been played before can’t be judged, not matched by me or many others. I can also believe that many of the people downplaying it are the same that would be touting it if Marvin showed out, as I believe there are many fans who are “intentionally” positive
That’s your opinion that what has been played before can’t be judged, not matched by me or many others. I can also believe that many of the people downplaying it are the same that would be touting it if Marvin showed out, as I believe there are many fans who are “intentionally” positive
But it doesn't prove that, though. You seem to be doing this really weird 'ad populum' thing, as relates to RealGM, to justify their affirming your point of view. But them not being Kings homers doesn't axiomatically make them more objective, nor does them being the 'most popular' whatever: if anything, it makes it more likely that they have less information about Bagley than the people posting here.
Objective would be if all (or at least, like, a statistical majority) of the posters at RealGM follow all 30 teams with the same level of attention and focus. You don't actually believe that's true, do you?
Objective would be if all (or at least, like, a statistical majority) of the posters at RealGM follow all 30 teams with the same level of attention and focus. You don't actually believe that's true, do you?
I’m asking you for a better method at our disposal? If there isn’t one, that’s the closest we have to determine objectivity. The typical fan on RealGM/social media will not have watched a lot of Kings but have a relative impression on how the rookies are doing, and it would be unusual for that consensus to be without base.
No, it may not meet academic scientific scrutiny, but I think pooling a group of non-biased, relatively basketball knowledges fans are the best way to attain the “ballpark” of how the rookies have produced, and this seems like a semantic argument that you guys wouldn’t be making if Marvin was the one who has impressed.
Kings fans on Kingsfans.com may have watched him more, but I think the bias towards wanting him to do well may severely diminish the ability to objectively reason how he’s done in comparison to his peers. Keep in mind that Kingsfans.com is a notably positive minded place where Vlade is seen as a quality GM by half the populace despite a vast difference in perception out of this site. That includes SactownRoyalty, which I note the mood towards Bagley is far less optimistic, and IMO actually lies closer to how I view the objective mean.
Maybe I should just say that I believe the majority of non-Kings fans who follow the NBA have been down on Marvin’s production as how it relates to a #2 pick and Doncic, which anyone here can see by a random twitter search, without saying that means it’s an absolute certainty that he is either way.
Aside from that, Marvin has been doing good things the last two games. I think it’s fine to support him etc. If Doncic continues to show signs of being better in my and most non-Kings fans eyes, though, it’s such a crucial decision that I expect that long overdue new FO. But Marvin has been doing better and at least giving the fans the possibility that he could be the better player lately, in fairness. So, even I say this is an early argument and far from conclusion
No, it may not meet academic scientific scrutiny, but I think pooling a group of non-biased, relatively basketball knowledges fans are the best way to attain the “ballpark” of how the rookies have produced, and this seems like a semantic argument that you guys wouldn’t be making if Marvin was the one who has impressed.
Kings fans on Kingsfans.com may have watched him more, but I think the bias towards wanting him to do well may severely diminish the ability to objectively reason how he’s done in comparison to his peers. Keep in mind that Kingsfans.com is a notably positive minded place where Vlade is seen as a quality GM by half the populace despite a vast difference in perception out of this site. That includes SactownRoyalty, which I note the mood towards Bagley is far less optimistic, and IMO actually lies closer to how I view the objective mean.
Maybe I should just say that I believe the majority of non-Kings fans who follow the NBA have been down on Marvin’s production as how it relates to a #2 pick and Doncic, which anyone here can see by a random twitter search, without saying that means it’s an absolute certainty that he is either way.
Aside from that, Marvin has been doing good things the last two games. I think it’s fine to support him etc. If Doncic continues to show signs of being better in my and most non-Kings fans eyes, though, it’s such a crucial decision that I expect that long overdue new FO. But Marvin has been doing better and at least giving the fans the possibility that he could be the better player lately, in fairness. So, even I say this is an early argument and far from conclusion
I understand your concerns about Bagley, but why does it matter if Doncic is better as long as Bagley turns out good? And why only Doncic, why not every other player picked after Bagley? As Ive mentioned before there were so many misses at #2 in the past that I think selecting a good one (not necessarily the best one) out of the lot is a win.
"Closest" being a very relative term, here. I am not, generally speaking, in favor of letting the pursuit of perfection get in the way of accepting the good, but that's not even a good option. If that's the best we can do, we might just have to accept that we can't do it. I'm not burdened by the need to solve every problem, and this doesn't seem to me like a problem that needs solving. The idea of seeking objectivity from fans strikes me as something of a Kobayahi Maru, anyway.
If they haven't watched the Kings, then what is their "relative impression" worth? Why should Kings fans regard the relative impression of people who don't pay attention to their team as though that has any value to them?
EYE would be making the semantic argument, regardless, because I am a pedant (like, seriously, you've been here for six years; you should know this by now). I'm not even invested in defending Marvin Bagley III, because I'm not really invested in the Kings. I reject the premise of posters at RealGM being "non-biased." From my point of view, your entire thesis hinges on the belief that the posters at RealGM are more objective than people who post elsewhere, which is a belief that I think is ridiculous on its face. The whole thing is like an appeal to authority, which is bad enough, except that the authority that you're appealing to is RealGM. Appealing to authority is generally acknowledged to be a bad way to argue, and it's even worse when the people you're arguing with don't recognize the 'authority' that you're appealing to.
Then there's the unspoken subtext of your argument, the whole, "If you were a free thinker, like me, and not one the sheep, then you would obviously agree with my point of view!" Which has all sorts of unfortunate implications, all on its own.
Maybe. To which my rebuttal is... so? The only people for whom it matters whether or not they are objective about Marvin Bagley III are the people whose job security is dependent on whether or not their assessment of Marvin Bagley III is accurate.
Maybe. It kind of feels like you were determined to do it that way, regardless. And hey, that's your prerogative. What I can say is that, if you had, then we ( :: gesticulates between @Kingsfan23 and @Mr. S£im Citrus :: ) wouldn't be doing this ( :: gesticulates towards thread :: ) right now.
If they haven't watched the Kings, then what is their "relative impression" worth? Why should Kings fans regard the relative impression of people who don't pay attention to their team as though that has any value to them?
EYE would be making the semantic argument, regardless, because I am a pedant (like, seriously, you've been here for six years; you should know this by now). I'm not even invested in defending Marvin Bagley III, because I'm not really invested in the Kings. I reject the premise of posters at RealGM being "non-biased." From my point of view, your entire thesis hinges on the belief that the posters at RealGM are more objective than people who post elsewhere, which is a belief that I think is ridiculous on its face. The whole thing is like an appeal to authority, which is bad enough, except that the authority that you're appealing to is RealGM. Appealing to authority is generally acknowledged to be a bad way to argue, and it's even worse when the people you're arguing with don't recognize the 'authority' that you're appealing to.
Then there's the unspoken subtext of your argument, the whole, "If you were a free thinker, like me, and not one the sheep, then you would obviously agree with my point of view!" Which has all sorts of unfortunate implications, all on its own.
Maybe. To which my rebuttal is... so? The only people for whom it matters whether or not they are objective about Marvin Bagley III are the people whose job security is dependent on whether or not their assessment of Marvin Bagley III is accurate.
- I find the veracity of the claim that "half the populace" of KingsFans.com consider Vlade Divac to be a quality GM to be highly questionable. I don't even think that half of the "positive" posters would agree that Vlade Divac is a "quality GM."
- I'm still waiting for someone to explain why people wanting to be positive on a fan site is bad?
Maybe. It kind of feels like you were determined to do it that way, regardless. And hey, that's your prerogative. What I can say is that, if you had, then we ( :: gesticulates between @Kingsfan23 and @Mr. S£im Citrus :: ) wouldn't be doing this ( :: gesticulates towards thread :: ) right now.
Bagley is #2 worthy, Luka is #2 worthy, Trae Young might be #2 worthy.
The hell, Olajuwon could be like #2 pick in the Jordan draft instead of #1.
But a stud is a stud. And Hakeem earns the respect even if MJ cashed the market more than him.
The Bagley draft is one stud-heavy draft and Kings certainly got one of the best in Marvin Bagley.
On whether the stud player becomes a legend is all up to many other things, including health, marketing, right place at the right time, agent craps, paid referees, bias commentators, ****ed-up fans, nay sayers, whatever.
But whatever Luka becomes, Kings got themselves a stud player in Bagley.
Some people just gets used to having some one better than them. Often they forgot, a lot just fakes it before they make it.
The hell, Olajuwon could be like #2 pick in the Jordan draft instead of #1.
But a stud is a stud. And Hakeem earns the respect even if MJ cashed the market more than him.
The Bagley draft is one stud-heavy draft and Kings certainly got one of the best in Marvin Bagley.
On whether the stud player becomes a legend is all up to many other things, including health, marketing, right place at the right time, agent craps, paid referees, bias commentators, ****ed-up fans, nay sayers, whatever.
But whatever Luka becomes, Kings got themselves a stud player in Bagley.
Some people just gets used to having some one better than them. Often they forgot, a lot just fakes it before they make it.
Because I got the impression we were looking for team players, high iq and passing first players.
At the same time, we don't have a proper SF since ages... So I thought it was really the easiest choice ever.
The best player available with the characteristics the gm is looking for in the spot you (the franchise, not Vlade) were not able to cover since Ron Artest.
It's not about Bagley, I prefer MBIII than any other prospect apart from Doncic... but that's why it's about Luka.
And this is my point of view trying to be fair and not a fan of Doncic (I am of course).
I'm sure this is gonna be a funny thread, especially when Bagley will have better stats than Doncic.
At the same time, we don't have a proper SF since ages... So I thought it was really the easiest choice ever.
The best player available with the characteristics the gm is looking for in the spot you (the franchise, not Vlade) were not able to cover since Ron Artest.
It's not about Bagley, I prefer MBIII than any other prospect apart from Doncic... but that's why it's about Luka.
And this is my point of view trying to be fair and not a fan of Doncic (I am of course).
I'm sure this is gonna be a funny thread, especially when Bagley will have better stats than Doncic.
“But what Luka becomes” may not have been such an issue if the Kings weren’t supposed to take him, according to the basketball community at large.
Again, we can all move on in support of Marvin, no matter what Luka becomes, except for having an FO who has a terrible reputation, may have just got a obvious/crucial choice wrong as well as handing over our pick this year. That means the team has an FO that shouldn’t be there
There are two separate issues, supporting Marvin and choosing not wallow in a past decision, as well as wanting a bumbling FO who may have made another bad move out yesterday
The decision is made, I want an actual respectable FO. This move may further the cause. Fans can support Marvin, but I don’t see why they’d continue to support Vlade with a checkered resume making another questionable move. Do they like Vlade making decisions? If so we can ignore the Marvin/Luka thing if Luka shows out and give Vlade more time (eek)
Again, we can all move on in support of Marvin, no matter what Luka becomes, except for having an FO who has a terrible reputation, may have just got a obvious/crucial choice wrong as well as handing over our pick this year. That means the team has an FO that shouldn’t be there
There are two separate issues, supporting Marvin and choosing not wallow in a past decision, as well as wanting a bumbling FO who may have made another bad move out yesterday
The decision is made, I want an actual respectable FO. This move may further the cause. Fans can support Marvin, but I don’t see why they’d continue to support Vlade with a checkered resume making another questionable move. Do they like Vlade making decisions? If so we can ignore the Marvin/Luka thing if Luka shows out and give Vlade more time (eek)
So let's assume that the Kings picked Doncic instead of Bagley. What are the odds that the "national narrative" would be that the Kings screwed up an obvious choice by passing on an athletic and skilled big man in Bagley for an unathletic tweener who has consistently shot in the low .300s from three in Euroleague?
For that matter, what are the odds that if we had traded the #2 pick to Dallas for Trae Young and their protected pick that we would be savaged in the national media for passing on Doncic? Yet I hear no criticism of Atlanta for doing that exact thing.
My point being, it just seems to me that the Kings are one of the teams singled out to be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" in the national narrative. The Kings front office will not be seen as respectable nor will any of their decisions be considered justifiable until they actually start winning again. The community at large has already pre-decided to view us negatively, whatever we do. So my level of concern when the complaint is "people see us negatively because we did X" is pretty close to nil.
For that matter, what are the odds that if we had traded the #2 pick to Dallas for Trae Young and their protected pick that we would be savaged in the national media for passing on Doncic? Yet I hear no criticism of Atlanta for doing that exact thing.
My point being, it just seems to me that the Kings are one of the teams singled out to be "damned if they do, damned if they don't" in the national narrative. The Kings front office will not be seen as respectable nor will any of their decisions be considered justifiable until they actually start winning again. The community at large has already pre-decided to view us negatively, whatever we do. So my level of concern when the complaint is "people see us negatively because we did X" is pretty close to nil.
I didn't hear anything negative when we drafted Fox Jackson and Giles, just praises.
Logical picks give you good grades and praises, illogical picks make you an idiot or a genius.
In the last 10 years we've been idiots too many times.
I personally wouldn't have minded being logic for once.
Not just because Doncic was the bpa, but he fits our needs as well.
If Vlade nails this pick... Hats off, literally.
Logical picks give you good grades and praises, illogical picks make you an idiot or a genius.
In the last 10 years we've been idiots too many times.
I personally wouldn't have minded being logic for once.
Not just because Doncic was the bpa, but he fits our needs as well.
If Vlade nails this pick... Hats off, literally.
Here's the secret. Neither one of them have become anything yet. We have no idea how either of them will perform in the NBA until, you know, they actually play real games in the NBA. And even then it may take three+ years for one or both of them to grow into whatever they will end up being in this league.
I'd feel REAL silly jocking one of these guys as the second coming at this point when either one could end up being the best player from the draft. Or someone taken after pick 20 might end up doing that. Or they both end up as great players. Or they both wash out of the league on their rookie contracts. Point is, we don't know. And we likely won't for years.
So, can we please put down the crystal balls, tone down the rhetoric, and actually see how these guys perform over the course of the next few years before we are spitting foam when declaring winners and losers?
I'd feel REAL silly jocking one of these guys as the second coming at this point when either one could end up being the best player from the draft. Or someone taken after pick 20 might end up doing that. Or they both end up as great players. Or they both wash out of the league on their rookie contracts. Point is, we don't know. And we likely won't for years.
So, can we please put down the crystal balls, tone down the rhetoric, and actually see how these guys perform over the course of the next few years before we are spitting foam when declaring winners and losers?
No, actually according to the THREAD as I said. You're the one fixated on this right now. Not "a lot of other people."
You speak in such grandiose terms that it's almost impossible to have a decent discussion. It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfold. All we need is the chorus bemoaning the fates.
Your generalities are, for the most part, unsubstantiated by silly little things like facts.
"A lot of people"
"Kings fans"
"the basketball community at large"
...etc ad nauseum
You might get away with that stuff at RealGM, but around here fans are a little more discriminating and you're going to be called on it. I'm truly surprised you don't seem to comprehend that.
You speak in such grandiose terms that it's almost impossible to have a decent discussion. It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfold. All we need is the chorus bemoaning the fates.
Your generalities are, for the most part, unsubstantiated by silly little things like facts.
"A lot of people"
"Kings fans"
"the basketball community at large"
...etc ad nauseum
You might get away with that stuff at RealGM, but around here fans are a little more discriminating and you're going to be called on it. I'm truly surprised you don't seem to comprehend that.
I don’t mean to give that impression, as I try to phrame it as it looks of today or if Luka turns out better.
I thought after the last two games, particularly Portland, Marvin was showing some chops. Some paint protection, taking that three with confidence etc. I was encouraged, and do see a potential path, as of today, of Marvin potentially being better. though as of today I’d give Luka the overall advantage
I thought after the last two games, particularly Portland, Marvin was showing some chops. Some paint protection, taking that three with confidence etc. I was encouraged, and do see a potential path, as of today, of Marvin potentially being better. though as of today I’d give Luka the overall advantage
The pre draft reports said Marvin would be a defensive liability. Yet he seems pretty decent on D. Some draft geek sites suggested JJJ would be a better pick than MBIII, partly because of his defence, which seems worse than advertised. Maybe their desire to predict the unpredictable or appear super discerning made them lose sight of what was in front of them?
Luka looks like he's going to be a good player. He did extremely well against a high level of competition in Europe. The Kings know - they scouted him in person in Europe. Bogdan was also one of the best players in Europe. Did I hear Belly also won a euroleague MVP award once?
MBIII did well in his first year of college. Many records set. He outwardly said he would be happy to come to Sac. There was evidence of improvement in only 6 preseason games.
I could write a longer list of positives re MBIII. But to what effect? They are there to be seen if you want to see them. But you don't want to see them. Instead of enjoying what might be in front of you, you all want to be sad and stare at your ex girlfriends instagram (in this case not your ex but a girl that wouldn't even talk to you...?) Maybe you want to do this because ... ?
In fairness it doesn't make a difference to me - I am happy to support MBIII and mostly ignore Luka.
Luka looks like he's going to be a good player. He did extremely well against a high level of competition in Europe. The Kings know - they scouted him in person in Europe. Bogdan was also one of the best players in Europe. Did I hear Belly also won a euroleague MVP award once?
MBIII did well in his first year of college. Many records set. He outwardly said he would be happy to come to Sac. There was evidence of improvement in only 6 preseason games.
I could write a longer list of positives re MBIII. But to what effect? They are there to be seen if you want to see them. But you don't want to see them. Instead of enjoying what might be in front of you, you all want to be sad and stare at your ex girlfriends instagram (in this case not your ex but a girl that wouldn't even talk to you...?) Maybe you want to do this because ... ?
In fairness it doesn't make a difference to me - I am happy to support MBIII and mostly ignore Luka.
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