Grade the Kings off-season so far

[kingsfan1984]

Bro, know what the hell your talking about.

"While some veterans performed worse than expected, the most disappointing performance by a first-round pick came from No. 2 overall selection Marvin Bagley III. Bagley played three games in front of home fans with the Sacramento Kings but just one in Las Vegas prior to being diagnosed with a pelvic bone bruise. In that span, he shot 1-10 on 3s and 13-of-32 (41 percent) inside the arc while grabbing just 11 percent of available rebounds." - Pelton

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/24116543/can-nba-summer-league-predict-surprise-stars




He called him disappointing because he flat was. He looked like a relative bust and it wasn't acceptable to me as a fan

Hmmm Bagelys biggest knock coming into the draft was his ability to defend and block any shots...did you not see some encouraging things on that side of the ball to dispell him as a lost cause on defense? He swatted a lot more shots than i expected and moved his feet well to cut off penetration on more than 1 occasion to give me some faith he at least can be solid.

 

[Gary]

You said "I have no idea how fans of a team can stay positive when you are continuously rebuilding.." Should I have called that "dumping"? Probably not but your negativity is off-putting.

Why do I think you're wrong?

1. Because you gave Vlade an "F" for what at worst would be considered by most (as evidenced above) as a C
.
2. Because to the best of my recollection since you returned to KF you have had virtually nothing good to say.

I never "the moves are great and will make this a playoff team" so I'm not even going to address that.

Throw in the towel? Nope. Not what I do. What I am guilty of sometimes is refusing to continue to argue with someone who is unwilling to be realistic. (Hey, you asked...)

I don't play Thermonuclear War for much the same reason.

Come on VF.. That's not dumping on fans lol.. I am just upset because as fans I think we deserve better. We have fought tooth and nail to keep the Kings in Sacramento, and I think we are owed a good product to watch.

 

[Gary]

I am but its still interesting as long as we got a likeable team/interesting players/hope (Bagley Fox/Giles0, I personally found the Cousins last 2-3 years tough cause I could not stand him with him antics at this point I would settle for a team that does not give up half way through a season.

Don't get me wrong. I usually watch every game but as for fan participation I have been lax the last few years as seen here. I have been posting here since 2001 but I haven't been too active for the past 4 or so years here. The team hasn't been that fun to watch, and it seems we get rid of all out talent when they're ready to contribute.

 

[Larry David]

I heard it from Carmichael Dave. He said, paraphrasing, he's barely recognizable from the work he's put in this summer. Skal is not active on social media but I did a Twitter search and this is what I found from July 16:

View attachment 8203

Skal’s physical strength is not his biggest problem or cure. Well established record with Kentucky and the Kings that he’s mentally weak (won’t compete or fight through adversity) and soft (won’t do the dirty work). Maybe he changes his stripes. He’s young. But save 20 games his rookie year, when the points masked his persistent issues, it a major issue. Folks here tried to look past it after the draft and after his rookie year, but it’s a thing

 

[Kingsfan23]

I have a third party poll going here

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1732064

48 votes so far. 32 not in favor of bringing back Vlade past this year if they were Vivek, 13 in favor, and 3 maybes.

The poll is still early, and Im actually surprised that Vlade has that much favor, but I think many recognize stability.

My take is obviously Id like a more vetted professional mind in, but my objective opinion is Vlade really needs some things to go very right this year to stay on. One, and importantly, is Bagley better look a lot better in the regular season

 

[dude12]

I have a third party poll going here

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1732064

48 votes so far. 32 not in favor of bringing back Vlade past this year if they were Vivek, 13 in favor, and 3 maybes.

The poll is still early, and Im actually surprised that Vlade has that much favor, but I think many recognize stability.

My take is obviously Id like a more vetted professional mind in, but my objective opinion is Vlade really needs some things to go very right this year to stay on. One, and importantly, is Bagley better look a lot better in the regular season

A poll on real gm? Big effing deal.

 

[Kingsfan23]

A poll on real gm? Big effing deal.

Its a random sample of outside opinion.

Thats how I think non-biased fans feel

I think thats arguably a more accurate assessment of the situation, when IMO a lot of fans may be emotionally attached to Vlade or want to see the best of the situation

 

[VF21]

Its a random sample of outside opinion.

Thats how I think non-biased fans feel

I think thats arguably a more accurate assessment of the situation, when IMO a lot of fans may be emotionally attached to Vlade or want to see the best of the situation

Please note your poll has 48 votes from all over the NBA. This one has 108 and we're just about the Kings. Not sure how you can claim yours is a more accurate assessment.

 

[ESP47]

Skal’s physical strength is not his biggest problem or cure. Well established record with Kentucky and the Kings that he’s mentally weak (won’t compete or fight through adversity) and soft (won’t do the dirty work). Maybe he changes his stripes. He’s young. But save 20 games his rookie year, when the points masked his persistent issues, it a major issue. Folks here tried to look past it after the draft and after his rookie year, but it’s a thing

I haven't noticed Skal being mentally weak in Sacramento. I've noticed a guy that's physically weak. I've noticed a guy who didn't always know where to be on the court and a guy who struggled to find his shot last year but I haven't noticed the mentally weak side.

 

[Kingsfan23]

Please note your poll has 48 votes from all over the NBA. This one has 108 and we're just about the Kings. Not sure how you can claim yours is a more accurate assessment.

Because I personally feel, right or wrong, that there is an intentional positivity about the forum. Not to say that thats right or wrong. But I feel its a more biased sample than a bunch of NBA fans who have no stake in the game

 

[VF21]

Because I personally feel, right or wrong, that there is an intentional positivity about the forum. Not to say that thats right or wrong. But I feel its a more biased sample than a bunch of NBA fans who have no stake in the game

An intentional positivity? As opposed to an unintentional positivity? You're serious? Whatever. I truly hope your poll goes your way because I can't imagine your chagrin if it doesn't. And it still won't prove a thing.

 

[Kingsfan23]

An intentional positivity? As opposed to an unintentional positivity? You're serious? Whatever. I truly hope your poll goes your way because I can't imagine your chagrin if it doesn't. And it still won't prove a thing.

Vlade needs to do well this year with his prospects, which is the bottom line to actually both polls. The original poll had a far majority suggesting that was true anyways ('Maybe' to the more critical). So, not that different to my poll anyways

 

[Larry David]

Because I personally feel, right or wrong, that there is an intentional positivity about the forum. Not to say that thats right or wrong. But I feel its a more biased sample than a bunch of NBA fans who have no stake in the game

A decade running of calling the national media ingnorant haters despite the fact that the national writers are correct at least three times as much as the concencus here is a historical example.

Or the answers above that fail to objectively assess what transpired here this summer or to grasp where wins actually come from. Despite having many young players and an enticing young talent in Fox, the Kings did not have either a “young core” nor clear path back from the wilderness heading into the draft. Luckily for a team in asset collection mode, they had the 2nd pick in the draft and 19 million dollars to spend in a tight market. They proceeded to:

Not take the best prospect at 2. Instead settling again for the best prospect that came to Sacramento

Attempted to spend all of their cap space on a third shooting guard, despite the fact that 2 of their top 4 prospects are natural shooting guards.

Upgraded their bench with fringe rotation players on a good team. Because they got a good price on players that probably don’t materially move the win needle over the short or long term, many are calling this a good summer.

 

[Larry David]

I truly hope your poll goes your way because I can't imagine your chagrin if it doesn't. And it still won't prove a thing.

1. Considering how polls are regularly crafted here to achieve results, this is quite something

2. I’m pretty sure the original point of the post is that non-objective content doesn’t “prove a thing”

 

[kingsboi]

Uhh that team with Elton Brand, Sam Cassel was pretty good.

did they get out of the first round?

 

[Nokidding]

did they get out of the first round?

They got out of the first round 2006 should have gone further but rookie PG at the time Daniel Ewing killed them at the end of a critical game against the Suns for no reason leaving a 3 point shooter open last second (Cassell went berserk on him from the bench) it was basically like the Horry dagger on the Kings just worse (in a way)cause this one was not really lucky just bad decision making.

 

[kingsboi]

They got out of the first round 2006 should have gone further but rookie PG at the time Daniel Ewing killed them at the end of a critical game against the Suns for no reason leaving a 3 point shooter open last second (Cassell went berserk on him from the bench) it was basically like the Horry dagger on the Kings just worse (in a way)cause this one was not really lucky just bad decision making.

living in the "should have" is not getting them anywhere, they made one playoff apperance in 2006 and then followed that up by missing the next five playoff appearances. Prior to the 2006 appearance, they had a 8 year drought. I can keep going back in time but what's the use? The point here is one playoff appearance in 2006 doesn't really mean anything if you don't follow that up with another and winning.

 

[Sac.Kings]

Its a random sample of outside opinion.

Thats how I think non-biased fans feel

I think thats arguably a more accurate assessment of the situation, when IMO a lot of fans may be emotionally attached to Vlade or want to see the best of the situation

Is one even a "fan" if one is non-biased? Is there such a thing? If you're a fan doesn't that make you biased immediately?

I'll give you the fact that Vlade has not been perfect and has made mistakes, but a lot of GMs make mistakes. For the most part though he has done well. Even the Cousins trade has come out in our favor. I'm not sure what you keep harping about Vlade for, this is the most well balanced roster we have had in years. He has drafted decently thus far and most of the players he's drafted have not had enough time to develop. He turned 1 pick into several picks a couple years ago, he picked Giles when no one else would, and decided to go with Bagley instead of someone else. It's not like Bagley was a rich. You're putting way too much stock into summer league games and are way too easily influenced by "experts" on ESPN who change their minds on the regular (the same expert changed his mind and led us to have differing points of view for example).

Let the wave ride out, let the young guys play for a few months and then let us evaluate. Give Vlade the chance to see his vision develop. Do you not remember the crap show that was once the Sacramento Kings when Vlade took over? Did you really think he could do an entire 180 for this franchise in one or two seasons?

 

[Gguod]

Is one even a "fan" if one is non-biased? Is there such a thing? If you're a fan doesn't that make you biased immediately?

I'll give you the fact that Vlade has not been perfect and has made mistakes, but a lot of GMs make mistakes. For the most part though he has done well. Even the Cousins trade has come out in our favor. I'm not sure what you keep harping about Vlade for, this is the most well balanced roster we have had in years. He has drafted decently thus far and most of the players he's drafted have not had enough time to develop. He turned 1 pick into several picks a couple years ago, he picked Giles when no one else would, and decided to go with Bagley instead of someone else. It's not like Bagley was a rich. You're putting way too much stock into summer league games and are way too easily influenced by "experts" on ESPN who change their minds on the regular (the same expert changed his mind and led us to have differing points of view for example).

Let the wave ride out, let the young guys play for a few months and then let us evaluate. Give Vlade the chance to see his vision develop. Do you not remember the crap show that was once the Sacramento Kings when Vlade took over? Did you really think he could do an entire 180 for this franchise in one or two seasons?

"Future of Vlade" thread has a lot of discussion about Vlade and his successes and failures. Especially the first few pages. VF wouldnt like if I continued this conversation here so if you want to know why some of us are "harping about Vlade", read that thread and lets have that conversation there.

 

[Cojc]

I hope we do what a lot of us are thinking Vlade is working on.
And that is a trade with a team needing cap space as I believe there are a few teams out there he is working on.

Then we can dump or trade a few players we all know do not fit. But I really believe we need to do show real progress this year to gather interest from from better players next year.

 

[Sac.Kings]

"Future of Vlade" thread has a lot of discussion about Vlade and his successes and failures. Especially the first few pages. VF wouldnt like if I continued this conversation here so if you want to know why some of us are "harping about Vlade", read that thread and lets have that conversation there.

I've seen and read through most of that thread. I've no intention of getting involved into a back and forth argument when it's clear that I feel one way about Vlade as a GM and others feel another way. Neither group is correct or wrong. It's just opinions being thrown around at one another. I've been both a critic and a fan of Vlade and his moves as GM. I do think that his more recent moves have made more sense and the contracts have been great. We also have a ton of trading chips as the deadline approaches with a bunch of vets coming off the books next year.

We have been a terribly run franchise for a long time and I think the difference between opinions on Vlade mostly stem from the level of appreciation for the difficulty he must have had when he got the job. It's not an easy climb to respectability. We have to overpay for free agents that is just the way it is for us.

This is all I will say on this subject. Everyone is entitled to think what they like.

 

[Blob]

I have a third party poll going here

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1732064

48 votes so far. 32 not in favor of bringing back Vlade past this year if they were Vivek, 13 in favor, and 3 maybes.

The poll is still early, and Im actually surprised that Vlade has that much favor, but I think many recognize stability.

My take is obviously Id like a more vetted professional mind in, but my objective opinion is Vlade really needs some things to go very right this year to stay on. One, and importantly, is Bagley better look a lot better in the regular season

You sound like me before the draft...but now I am Vlade's biggest fan .

You are not thinking about this with enough nuance however. As I have elaborated, the Boogie Trade was disconcerting internally. It was botched in process and execution. Subsequently we added Brandon Williams as a way to save a guy flailing in the open sea without life preserver. In my mind they are effectively co-GMs where prospective moves must garner the stamp of his "second in command". When you talk about more "vetted professional mind" Williams serves that function. I have heard others mention Sam Hinkie as a replacement. Who?! The same guy who picked Okafor over Porzingis? That was as bad as any pick Vlade has made. With Bagley and the signing Yogi and Bjelica, and early returns on Giles, and projected improvement of Fox, Boggy and Buddy, I think Vlade's job is safe for now. He recently seized on two situations in which it looked like both players were headed elsewhere (Mavs, 76ers). That's opportunistic GM-ing that I endorse!

 

[Iced Espresso]

I have a third party poll going here

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1732064

48 votes so far. 32 not in favor of bringing back Vlade past this year if they were Vivek, 13 in favor, and 3 maybes.

The poll is still early, and Im actually surprised that Vlade has that much favor, but I think many recognize stability.

My take is obviously Id like a more vetted professional mind in, but my objective opinion is Vlade really needs some things to go very right this year to stay on. One, and importantly, is Bagley better look a lot better in the regular season

65% we should make changes/move on.

I'd of expected it more in favor of that from general NBA fans.

 

[63royals]

The poll completely overlooks the most important factor in whether or not Vlade should be retained after this season -- how the team performs this season. Since that hasn't happened yet, ANY predictions are premature. So, this is just a bunch of people speculating about what they think will happen. As to what it proves -- absolutely nothing.

 

[VF21]

1. Considering how polls are regularly crafted here to achieve results, this is quite something

2. I’m pretty sure the original point of the post is that non-objective content doesn’t “prove a thing”

Any poll I create is done to gauge how OUR membership feels, nothing more or less. I often use actual quotes as questions to try and maintain a sense of neutrality in the creation of the poll. Same goes for the responses.

 

[Kingster]

do you really want to compare the Clippers and the Kings' rebuilding phases? considering before winning the lottery and drafting Blake number one, with getting Paul, they were in the lottery for nearly two decades if I'm not mistaken. The Kings very well could follow that same path, so comparing the two is a very scary thought for me.

The Clipps, today, are if anything on the way down. At very best they are in the stage of stasis going nowhere. The Kings are on the way up. That's the comparison. Not comparing today to yesteryear.

 

[Kingster]

A decade running of calling the national media ingnorant haters despite the fact that the national writers are correct at least three times as much as the concencus here is a historical example.

Or the answers above that fail to objectively assess what transpired here this summer or to grasp where wins actually come from. Despite having many young players and an enticing young talent in Fox, the Kings did not have either a “young core” nor clear path back from the wilderness heading into the draft. Luckily for a team in asset collection mode, they had the 2nd pick in the draft and 19 million dollars to spend in a tight market. They proceeded to:

Not take the best prospect at 2. Instead settling again for the best prospect that came to Sacramento

Attempted to spend all of their cap space on a third shooting guard, despite the fact that 2 of their top 4 prospects are natural shooting guards.

Upgraded their bench with fringe rotation players on a good team. Because they got a good price on players that probably don’t materially move the win needle over the short or long term, many are calling this a good summer.

How in heck do you know that the Kings didn't take the best prospect? A poll of fans? A consensus of media types? I just don't see how one can be so dogmatic about a draft picks when they haven't even hit the NBA hardwood. Even when those picks do play in the NBA it usually takes a minimum of two years, barring some unfortunate injury, to make an accurate comparison.

 

[King Baller]

Getting the #2 pick and choosing Bagley - A
Signing Yogi and Beli - B
Trading Temple - B
Use of the cap space so far - C
Overall so far- B

 

[Telemachus]

How in heck do you know that the Kings didn't take the best prospect? A poll of fans? A consensus of media types? I just don't see how one can be so dogmatic about a draft picks when they haven't even hit the NBA hardwood. Even when those picks do play in the NBA it usually takes a minimum of two years, barring some unfortunate injury, to make an accurate comparison.

To add to this, most here are looking at the consensus of the draft pundits and media people. Yet it was pointed out on the Ringer podcast that the same was not true of NBA teams. There were a lot of teams that had Doncic in the 5 - 7 range on their boards and one apparently had him around 12th. Obviously, this doesn't make them right either but should dissuade fans from thinking that the Kings passed on a better prospect. I wanted them to take Doncic, but always felt that Bagley had the higher upside.

 

[Kingsfan23]

You sound like me before the draft...but now I am Vlade's biggest fan .

You are not thinking about this with enough nuance however. As I have elaborated, the Boogie Trade was disconcerting internally. It was botched in process and execution. Subsequently we added Brandon Williams as a way to save a guy flailing in the open sea without life preserver. In my mind they are effectively co-GMs where prospective moves must garner the stamp of his "second in command". When you talk about more "vetted professional mind" Williams serves that function. I have heard others mention Sam Hinkie as a replacement. Who?! The same guy who picked Okafor over Porzingis? That was as bad as any pick Vlade has made. With Bagley and the signing Yogi and Bjelica, and early returns on Giles, and projected improvement of Fox, Boggy and Buddy, I think Vlade's job is safe for now. He recently seized on two situations in which it looked like both players were headed elsewhere (Mavs, 76ers). That's opportunistic GM-ing that I endorse!

I mean, should an head executive need to be balanced out? 95% of NBA front offices are headed by seasoned executives with listed resumes who haven’t been involved in abjectly curious moves. I just want security and confidence in the FO. That’s not to say Vlade’s moves will totally fail, it’s just that I don’t personally feel secure with it as of now.

My nuance is good, but I disagree with your post draft assessment. I didn’t mind Bagley on draft night but the only oncourt impression he’s left has been unacceptable (worst showing of any top pick), leaving me with legit questions on/off the court in the short span I saw. He then offered a widely panned offer to LaVine I didn’t want him to. The free agents were solid but not of the ilk I expected given the market circumstances of our space and the lack of competition for cap. Not to be negative, but it was again not a summer I wanted.

I think most on the thread agree though, Vlade will ultimately be judged on this year.