Marvin Bagley III
- Thread starter jcassio
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Are we moving the goalposts now because before it was only championships matter. That team made the playoffs because it had great defense. It wasn't the offense that picked up the slack. Had they been an average defensive team with Aldridge as their main offensive contributor they wouldn't have sniffed the playoffs. Hence why all of a sudden they are a serious threat with an elite wing in Kawhi. Kawhi brings them in the top 10 offensively alone.
You can't seem to get around the idea that KD and Curry are the only way to win. Even your hypothetical next dynasty is just like the current one. That's fine. You have your opinion, I have mine.
Nobody said the next dynasty is going to be pounding the ball inside like the old ways; and Bagley is not that type of big.
AD and Cousins consistently outscore opponents by wide margins when they are on the floor. The problem with the Pelicans have nothing to do with the duo and everything to do with the high number of Pelican players who should be in the G-League. Give the Kings Cousins and AD and we will be deep into the playoff.
Everybody on his list was either elite defensively or was carried by better players. Boozer was carried by Williams and Kirilinko, Amare had nash and Marion. The Wallace brothers were elite defensively in a league that hadn't figured out how to create offense yet post removal of zone ban.
The one true outlier was Dirk. A bigman that was the best offensive player on a team that ranked 8th in offense, but just as importantly ranked in the top 10 on defense. Dirk is one of the very best offensive big man the NBA has seen (KAJ, Barkley, Shaq). So unless you think Bagley is going to be as good as Dirk offensively (spoiler alert, he won't be) then what re we doing considering a scoring big man with no defensive acumen with the second pick?
The one true outlier was Dirk. A bigman that was the best offensive player on a team that ranked 8th in offense, but just as importantly ranked in the top 10 on defense. Dirk is one of the very best offensive big man the NBA has seen (KAJ, Barkley, Shaq). So unless you think Bagley is going to be as good as Dirk offensively (spoiler alert, he won't be) then what re we doing considering a scoring big man with no defensive acumen with the second pick?
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Aldrige was the offense. The defense came from elsewhere. They still made the playoffs despite being without their best player all year. No reason Bagley can't be an aldrige type.
The problem with using generalities with Bagley is there's not a lot of players like him. Athletic power forward that can run, score, rebound, and finish at the rim. If we take him it's with the hope he'll develop into a Stoudemire, or Griffen, Kemp, or even a Malone type of player. There's not a ton of these all star level run and gun power forwards to look at.
The problem with using generalities with Bagley is there's not a lot of players like him. Athletic power forward that can run, score, rebound, and finish at the rim. If we take him it's with the hope he'll develop into a Stoudemire, or Griffen, Kemp, or even a Malone type of player. There's not a ton of these all star level run and gun power forwards to look at.
Well, what if Doncic is the next Evan Turner? That's the risk that a team has to take right? There is no obvious can't-miss franchise changing player after Ayton. Some may turn out to be superstars, but at this point in time, it's hard to tell who's who.
At any rate, if Shareef Abdur-Rahim was a 6'-11" freak athlete and an elite rebounder; he'd have been awesome.
At any rate, if Shareef Abdur-Rahim was a 6'-11" freak athlete and an elite rebounder; he'd have been awesome.
No use in continuing to run around in circles with you on this. It's an example of a team who's best player has some similar characteristics to Bagley. He took his team to the playoffs despite not having their franchise player all season. It's a success for Aldridge, if you can't admit that I don't know what to say. I don't want to draft Bagley because Aldridge made the playoffs without kawhi, that's not what I'm getting at. Just that different types of teams can have success. Get good players and build. Are you really gonna pass on Amare at #2? That guy was on a lot of winning teams.
Yes, new flash; good teams have good players at different positions. Unless you're arguing that Nash and Marion could have won without Amare, I don't see the point. Nobody is saying Bagley alone can carry a team to the promise land, he will need help, just like all players. Even if the Kings have a star wing player, they still need quality bigs and vice versa.
Speaking of Marion, he switched from SF to PF for the Suns; and if you like his type of springy, slashing, above the rim play with a streaky 3 point shot; I think you would like Bagley. Because he can be a 6'-11" version of Shawn Marion.
The no-defense thing is too soon to tell. I would never rule out a 6'-11" athletic freak becoming a good defender.
Speaking of Marion, he switched from SF to PF for the Suns; and if you like his type of springy, slashing, above the rim play with a streaky 3 point shot; I think you would like Bagley. Because he can be a 6'-11" version of Shawn Marion.
The no-defense thing is too soon to tell. I would never rule out a 6'-11" athletic freak becoming a good defender.
Yes, that is true, but that is exactly what guys like AD, DMC, Porzingis, KAT do now, and they can barely get out of the first round (if even that).
And we had one of the most dominant big men with an inside and outside game in DMC for years and he could barely carry the team to mediocrity.
Even if you take away the GSW from the equation, these dominant big men still haven't translated to any playoff success.
And we had one of the most dominant big men with an inside and outside game in DMC for years and he could barely carry the team to mediocrity.
Even if you take away the GSW from the equation, these dominant big men still haven't translated to any playoff success.
Bagley can't guard the perimeter, let alone do it at an elite level like Marion could. It's a fallacious comparison. Marion was a 3/4 while Bagley is a 4/5. The problem is he won't have success in todays league at 4 because now a lot of 3's have moved up.
The guys you look to draft at the very top of the lottery are guys that have a chance to carry you. If you don't think Bagley has a shot at doing that, and instead just take quality guy hoping later drafts will produce that guy... Then your organization has some serious problems. Doncic might bust, but he's exactly the guy you take a swing on with the #2 pick, not a scoring big man with defensive problems.
The guys you look to draft at the very top of the lottery are guys that have a chance to carry you. If you don't think Bagley has a shot at doing that, and instead just take quality guy hoping later drafts will produce that guy... Then your organization has some serious problems. Doncic might bust, but he's exactly the guy you take a swing on with the #2 pick, not a scoring big man with defensive problems.
If there's no can't-miss franchise player in the draft than why are you pointing out all these franchise big men who carried their teams to the playoffs? Not to mention, we have a 7' freak athlete on the team right now who's hardly a franchise player. Bagley is probably going to be a pretty good offensive rebounder but other than that I don't know that anything is guaranteed. He's pretty skinny to be expected to bang with the big boys, especially when he didn't even do it in college. He's got a long way to go to catch up to guys like Chris Bosh as a shooter and he's non-existent as both a shotblocker and a playmaker. If you look at all the skills bigmen are asked to exhibit on a nightly basis now in the NBA -- the ability to shoot from outside, make intelligent rotations on defense, rebound, block shots, find open shooters -- Bagley can be relied on to do one of them?
The whole "freak athlete thing" feels both overstated and borderline irrelevant to me in light of Bagley's skillset. If he were a freak athlete and built like a truck you'd have something. If he were a freak athlete who can fill it up from outside and take guys off the dribble then he's a franchise player. But a freak athlete who needs an open lane to the basket is just Clint Capela without the defense. I wouldn't give that hypothetical player 10 million a year and we're supposed to be fawning over him with the 2nd pick in the draft? Seems like a waste to me.
The whole "freak athlete thing" feels both overstated and borderline irrelevant to me in light of Bagley's skillset. If he were a freak athlete and built like a truck you'd have something. If he were a freak athlete who can fill it up from outside and take guys off the dribble then he's a franchise player. But a freak athlete who needs an open lane to the basket is just Clint Capela without the defense. I wouldn't give that hypothetical player 10 million a year and we're supposed to be fawning over him with the 2nd pick in the draft? Seems like a waste to me.
The NBA game has changes, just like the NFL has changed.
Back in the day, the football teams that pounded the ball with the running backs would routinely win the Super Bowls. But the NFL changed the rules and made the game more favorable for the passing game. The NFL has become a pass first league and the only way to keep up is to have a good air attack game.
Just like the NBA, they have changed the rules to favor less contact and more finesse. More points = more TV ratings. The low scoring games where defense went mono on mono don't happen anymore for a reason and that is because the NBA has changed the rules and the way refs call games.
It's neither right or wrong, but offense sells tickets, so all the smart leagues are gearing the rules to provide more entertainment value for the consumers. And 3 point shooting and perimeter fast paced playing is better ratings for the league. Thus the rules are geared towards more offense. Perimeter players benefit the most from these new rules.
Back in the day, the football teams that pounded the ball with the running backs would routinely win the Super Bowls. But the NFL changed the rules and made the game more favorable for the passing game. The NFL has become a pass first league and the only way to keep up is to have a good air attack game.
Just like the NBA, they have changed the rules to favor less contact and more finesse. More points = more TV ratings. The low scoring games where defense went mono on mono don't happen anymore for a reason and that is because the NBA has changed the rules and the way refs call games.
It's neither right or wrong, but offense sells tickets, so all the smart leagues are gearing the rules to provide more entertainment value for the consumers. And 3 point shooting and perimeter fast paced playing is better ratings for the league. Thus the rules are geared towards more offense. Perimeter players benefit the most from these new rules.
If you take Bagley #2 overall you're hoping for a great run and gun power forward. Malone was the best. Amare is a great comp. Blake is doing it currently. Kemp was amazing. Your worst case is Faried but most agree Bagley is much more skilled than that. Give some specific examples of players of this type that didn't help their teams win. It's a rare breed of player.
If you want to take a swing, I think Bagley is exactly the type you swing at.
There's an old saying: let's take two runners and let's say they are both equally fast. One runs with perfect technique and the other has horrible technique. You pick the runner with the horrible technique because he will be the faster runner if he ever improves his fundamental.
Same with Bagley. He was all sorts of chaotic, messy, unaware, and bad; and he was still unstoppable. Once he learns defense, acquires a right hand, get stronger, and shoots with more consistency; it's game over. Guess what, those are things that many NBA players get better at. He doesn't have to learn new things, just get better at what he can already do; which is entirely reasonable.
I like Doncic, I wish we can have both Doncic and Bagley then the Kings will be set for the next decade, but Doncic is the runner with perfect form; where does he go from here? I don't want to sound like I'm punishing a player for being good; but while his floor is high, his ceiling is lower than Bagley.
There's an old saying: let's take two runners and let's say they are both equally fast. One runs with perfect technique and the other has horrible technique. You pick the runner with the horrible technique because he will be the faster runner if he ever improves his fundamental.
Same with Bagley. He was all sorts of chaotic, messy, unaware, and bad; and he was still unstoppable. Once he learns defense, acquires a right hand, get stronger, and shoots with more consistency; it's game over. Guess what, those are things that many NBA players get better at. He doesn't have to learn new things, just get better at what he can already do; which is entirely reasonable.
I like Doncic, I wish we can have both Doncic and Bagley then the Kings will be set for the next decade, but Doncic is the runner with perfect form; where does he go from here? I don't want to sound like I'm punishing a player for being good; but while his floor is high, his ceiling is lower than Bagley.
Stockton was the best offensive player on the Jazz, but Malone was a top 5 or 6 offensive big man of all time and a good defender (again a rare player) Amare, we discussed him, Nash and Marion 100 % drove that success. Shawn Kemp was an elite defender when he was good, but Payton was the best player on that team.
The very best player that Bagley might compare to is Amare... And that just isn't a player I like. Griffin isn't exactly finding much success post Paul is he? And even he has some playmaking skills which is what really drives his value up offensively.
The very best player that Bagley might compare to is Amare... And that just isn't a player I like. Griffin isn't exactly finding much success post Paul is he? And even he has some playmaking skills which is what really drives his value up offensively.
I like Bagley but I'm concerned about his game. It's really centered on being right at the basket, which is a huge limit on a big man these days. No mid range game to speak of, free throw percentage is not great, and he didn't really shoot all that many threes. He's also a twig. His game just doesn't scream star to me. Can he make others around him better?
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