Luka Doncic (pre and post-draft discussion thread)

[Gguod]

So Ayton is a defensive liability now? That's a false premise like Doncic is a fat tub of goo is a false premise. Bagley is an extraordinary AD level athlete. He's not likely to be chopped liver on D. He's going to be more agile than 90% of his opponents. It is true he did not play D at Duke. He sat on the outside of a 2-3 zone and rotated out to the perimeter on the three point shooters. Carter was the center of that zone. Bagley guarded a space on the floor and went to the glass went the ball went up. This style of D affected his metrics, including steal and block rate. I am not saying Bagley will be an all defense player with his a 7'0 wingspan and lean frame, but we are talking about superior athlete with fast reaction time. First to the ball wins and he is going to be first to the ball often. This type of athletic profile to go with his motor does not make for a defensive slouch.

Ayton is a defensive liability. He was bad in college and it would be a big reach to expect him to somehow become good in the next level.

Bagley will also most likely have defensive problems. He isnt big enough to play center and alter shots at the rim and only way I see him being effective is that if he becomes a passable switch guy. Even then it creates other problems if he cant play the 5 so there has to be one non shooter on the court with him playing center so it will affect the offense and he is forced to guard quicker wings. With Bagley I have hopes he could become a guy who plays 50/50 4 and 5 and basically just switch everything

Also these guys are bigs so defense will be very important with value as a player. More important than with Doncic or Porter

 

[Ozymandias]

The critique on Dončić here has reached laughable levels. Guarding DeRozan? He's a SG for crying out loud. Wingspan = ability to defend?

Everyone keeps mentioning that Luka can't guard anyone and we need to hide him on defense. Works fine for Harden doesn't it? MVP candidate and almost made it to the finals. He can't guard a tree. How about comparing him to Peja? No one on Earth would say Peja was athletic, but he was a decent defender was he not?

The question to ask yourselves is just how many SFs will be able to guard him once he gets settled and focused on his body more? He's LeBron's size. Just think about that. He can do almost anything on the court and the thing people focus on are his wingspan and his quickness, which according to the many "experts" on this board can never be improved upon. Does anyone think before they respond?

Some of y'all need to take a deep breath and quit trying to shove your opinions down everyone's throat. We all have our favorites but what some of you are saying is not backed up by anything and some of it doesn't even make sense. Luka has now become a guy that can't guard anyone, doesn't fit on the Kings, questionable shooter, slow as molasses, and fat. He also doesn't have a prayer to improve upon these things according to some of his critics on this board.

This is a 19 year old kid who took command of a Real Madrid team that had it's captain leave and took them to a couple of championships and managed to snag himself an MVP award in the process. Apparently this was all an accident because fat and slow kids that can't shoot or guard anyone don't have a place in basketball.

Please.

He ciuld never ever check DeRozan demar would dice him up. Mismatches happen in the nba the rockets will manage to get cp3 faced up with doncic we got half a thread here acting like those switches dolnt happen constantly. . Hayward could guard all these players tho, its true, he was agood passer and shooter and wasnt nearly good enough to carry that utah team. I just think doncic will be in way over his head and that he cant provide what the kings truly need, idont think he can take the offense to the heights needed to truly compete and im certain he's a defensive liability.

 

[Gguod]

He ciuld never ever check DeRozan demar would dice him up. Mismatches happen in the nba the rockets will manage to get cp3 faced up with doncic we got half a thread here acting like those switches dolnt happen constantly. . Hayward could guard all these players tho, its true, he was agood passer and shooter and wasnt nearly good enough to carry that utah team. I just think doncic will be in way over his head and that he cant provide what the kings truly need, idont think he can take the offense to the heights needed to truly compete and im certain he's a defensive liability.

Exactly those switches will happen and 100 times out of 100 I'd rather have Doncic switched on cp3 than Ayton.

 

[twslam07]

The kid is 230 and 6-9 at least. He's close. LeBron is a once in a generation player, we can't have everything haha.

LeBron James weighed in at 245lbs....as a rookie...with only 6% body fat. Luka is coming in at 230 and might be around 8-10% body fat. That math works out to mean that LeBron likely had 20-25lbs of non fat weight on Luka (just as a rookie). That number is likely 30-50lbs if you look at LeBron's current weight (260-275lbs)

 

[Ozymandias]

Nah after you started claiming I dont understand how complex thing are, i felt that I should note that with those arguments you made, you shouldnt claim that.

In these playoffs alone, Celtics played positionless basketball, Rockets played positionless basketball, Cavs play a lot of positionless basketball and Gsw plays a lot of positionless basketball. Or how would you define their lineups like Steph, Klay, Iggy, KD, Green?

I'm not sure you understand what positionless basketball is. For example Rockets have one power forward in their roster and he barely played in the playoffs. They played with three wings most of the time. Celtics had Rozier, three wings and Horford. Cavs played a lot with GHill, three wings and a stretch 4.

That most definetly isnt a strategy that gets you knocked out in the 1st round.



Ayton was a horrible defender in college and most likely will be a defensive liability in the Nba. He is good offensively but the discussion was about defense. He would create another weak point as you said.

If you prefer JJJ or Bamba over Doncic because of defense, thats perfectly fine with me. Taking Ayton or Bagley because Doncic cant defend is a flawed argument

Good defensive possessions are all for naught if an oreb occurs, ayton is capable of 13+ Rebs per game . Ayton has issues defensively, not because he's overmatched tho, because he's raw. Doncic's defensive issues will stem from being overmatched, thats why i brought up derozan, someone with his burst will make doncic look like greg mcdermott on d.

Bamba and JJJ are both above Luka on my board and wishlist.

 

[BigVirg]

Then please tell us why drafting a defensive liability at Center is better. If our weak point defensively atm is wing position, why would we create another weak point by drafting Ayton or Bagley if its the defense you are conserned about?

It's not better, but drafting a PF with foot speed in Bagley is...

 

[burner account]

If you bring Doncic to Sacramento, how many possessions should he initiate relative to Fox when they are on the floor together? Half? Less? More? The more you take the ball out of Fox's hands the less effective he becomes as penetrator. The more Fox has the ball in his hands the less effective Doncic becomes as a guy who is going to control the pace and set the table for teammates.

I mean i could quote the all thing.

Kokoskov used Doncic the best , in Madrid more because of the necessity(no Llull all season)he had to play usually "1" with huge USG%.

Off the ball he´s moving,cutting a lot and having Dragic(or another lefty point guard lets say Fox)he will get some easier looks and his % will go up.

The most efficient version of Doncic is Doncic as secondary ball handler , wher he dosent need to do a dirty work of brining the ball up te court and receiving in position wher he´s ready to attack.Then he´s capable of slicing every defense.

Fultz/Simmons together did not hit a three pointer all season , i mean that fit if they dont became servicable shooters(at least one)will never work.Fox is better three point shooter then both of them let alone Doncic.one thing is sure , Fox will need to become better shooter but he will need to take that step regardless of Doncic to become elite player.We´re seeing in the playoffs that you need multiple ball handlers , ability to creat your own shoot is steel the most valubale , because opponents cant yust take away your first option and shut you down like they did to Houston last season. Slovenia national team is deepy flawed and they did not supposed to go 9-0 against much better teams with NBA rosters like Spain but having 2 elite creators helped to hide every deficiency.The beauty of Doncic is that we dont need to look him only in vacuum and say he will average 18-6-6 or what.Its more about how will he positively affect other players and with his versitily being able to play diffrent lineups giving Kings a lot of options.

Fox/Bogdan/Doncic lineup could work and eventually be a 3 headed monster where you will have three players capable of running pick and roll and shooting/playing off the ball.I mean Luka and Bogdan are already good shooters(Doncic percentage dosen´t tell the all truth)and like i sad befor Fox will need to become at least average spotup shooter and that can work (i mean your point guard needs to be a good shooter anyway if you want to do anything in this league).

 

[Ozymandias]

The nba is a league f

LeBron James weighed in at 245lbs....as a rookie...with only 6% body fat. Luka is coming in at 230 and might be around 8-10% body fat.

View attachment 7638

View attachment 7639

He likely was sitting anywhere from 260-275 in his prime.

Lebron James is a freak athlete of the highest order. Your'e comparing apples and oranges.

 

[twslam07]

The nba is a league f


Lebron James is a freak athlete of the highest order. Your'e comparing apples and oranges.

How?

He/she said Luka is close to LeBron from a size perspective. The point is that hardly anybody is close. Thank you for agreeing.

 

[Ozymandias]

Exactly those switches will happen and 100 times out of 100 I'd rather have Doncic switched on cp3 than Ayton.

Have you looked ahead to future drafts? Do you see any bigmen on the horizon that compare favorably to Ayton?

 

[Ozymandias]

How?

He/she said Luka is close to LeBron from a size perspective. The point is that hardly anybody is close. Thank you for agreeing.

Lebron james plays several inches taller than his listed measurements due to his freakish athleticism.

 

[funkykingston]

Bagley is an extraordinary AD level athlete. He's not likely to be chopped liver on D. He's going to be more agile than 90% of his opponents. It is true he did not play D at Duke. He sat on the outside of a 2-3 zone and rotated out to the perimeter on the three point shooters. Carter was the center of that zone. Bagley guarded a space on the floor and went to the glass went the ball went up. This style of D affected his metrics, including steal and block rate. I am not saying Bagley will be an all defense player with his a 7'0 wingspan and lean frame, but we are talking about superior athlete with fast reaction time. First to the ball wins and he is going to be first to the ball often. This type of athletic profile to go with his motor does not make for a defensive slouch.

Bagley WAS chopped liver on defense. Duke didn't go to a zone until they lost to UNC, primarily because Krzyzewski saw that his young bigs weren't up to snuff. And he stayed in a zone because he thought it was their best chance to win until Kansas carved them up from outside. Bagley has shown flashes of being great in one-on-one defensive matchups as he's quick enough to slide and stay with just about anybody on the NCAA level and likely can stay with all but the most explosive players on the next level. But his ability to recognize and rotate was really awful this year. Just poor defensive awareness.

Again, the downside to Bagley (who is currently my top choice at #2) is that he almost has to be played next to another big. He's not big enough to prevent guys from getting position in the low post, he doesn't read the floor well at ALL leading to late rotations when he needs to help, and he lacks the length to protect the rim. In today's NBA the best teams often play a PG, three wings (or two wings and a "stretch 4") and a big. Bagley can't be that big unless you want a layup drill in the paint. But I think he can work as a wing defensively and punish smaller players on offense.

For what it's worth, the assumption was always that Andrew Wiggins, with his prototypical size at SF and elite athleticism would eventually become a good to great defender and instead he's still terrible on that end of the floor. Even with Thibs coming in he hasn't really progressed and is one of the worst wing defenders among starting SFs. I'm not saying Bagley will be the same, just that assuming a guy's defense will come around because of his physical gifts can be a mistake.

 

[twslam07]

Lebron james plays several inches taller than his listed measurements due to his freakish athleticism.

Sure. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about but carry on...

 

[Gguod]

Have you looked ahead to future drafts? Do you see any bigmen on the horizon that compare favorably to Ayton?

I'd rather see first how Giles looks or if wcs or Skal will develope. In past three drafts we have drafted four centers in the 1st round. I'd rather not keep constantly using assets on a position where you can find quality level starters for cheap.

So now that we are talking positional value, Doncic becomes even more valuable.

 

[Sac.Kings]

LeBron James weighed in at 245lbs....as a rookie...with only 6% body fat. Luka is coming in at 230 and might be around 8-10% body fat. That math works out to mean that LeBron likely had 20-25lbs of non fat weight on Luka (just as a rookie). That number is likely 30-50lbs if you look at LeBron's current weight (260-275lbs)

View attachment 7638

View attachment 7639

Not everyone can be like LeBron my friend. The kid has good size and could definitely add more muscle as well. I'm just saying height wise they are there and in terms of overall size they are relatively close.

 

[twslam07]

Not everyone can be like LeBron my friend. The kid has good size and could definitely add more muscle as well. I'm just saying height wise they are there and in terms of overall size they are relatively close.

Right, I understand your point. I'm saying they are not relatively close.

 

[Ozymandias]

I'd rather see first how Giles looks or if wcs or Skal will develope. In past three drafts we have drafted four centers in the 1st round. I'd rather not keep constantly using assets on a position where you can find quality level starters for cheap.

So now that we are talking positional value, Doncic becomes even more valuable.

So scarcity is not a factor in your mind? Your not worried about striking while the irons hot

I swear ur take is setting these other players on the kings up for failure. Classifying all those players as C's is flat out incorrect and your personal fan fiction. Whatever defensive pressure fox and WCS can apply is easily escaped by throwing the ball to the wing or PF, thats how it was last szn and how it'll be for years if doncics the pick. Funny part is y'all will scapegoat fox and wcs cuz they were supposed to be good defenders and give doncic a pass cuz he wasnt supposed to be, thats not how team defense in the nba works, the jazz are tough defensively at the wing guard and big positions thats why it works, they are a chain as strong as its weakest link. other than garrett temple the kings have a major soft spot on the wing, with doncic it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

If doncic cant guard someone they switch to justin jackson? Are u kidding me? Thats like trying to douse a forest fire using a bottle of champagne.

If doncic must be handcuffed with a defensive counterpart thats 2 roster spots used to fill the roles many can do with just one and dilutes his flexibility substantially.

 

[Ozymandias]

Not everyone can be like LeBron my friend. The kid has good size and could definitely add more muscle as well. I'm just saying height wise they are there and in terms of overall size they are relatively close.

their effective size on the floor is quite different.

Sure. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about but carry on...

Im here to discuss future scenarios not the banalities littering this thread.Forgive me for not going thru much of this drivel with a fine tooth comb

 

[Gguod]

So scarcity is not a factor in your mind? Your not worried about striking while the irons hot

I swear ur take is setting these other players on the kings up for failure. Classifying all those players as C's is flat out incorrect and your personal fan fiction. Whatever defensive pressure fox and WCS can apply is easily escaped by throwing the ball to the wing or PF, thats how it was last szn and how it'll be for years if doncics the pick. Funny part is y'all will scapegoat fox and wcs cuz they were supposed to be good defenders and give doncic a pass cuz he wasnt supposed to be, thats not how team defense in the nba works, the jazz are tough defensively at the wing guard and big positions thats why it works, other than garrett temple the kings have a major soft spot on the wing, with doncic it'll stick out like a sore thumb.

If doncic cant guard someone they switch to justin jackson? Are u kidding me? Thats like trying to douse a forest fire using a bottle of champagne.

Well if we want an efficent offense, all those guys should be centers. You say you want to build a team that can be better than Warriors but having two non shooting bigs on the floor is not the recipe.

Doncic is good enough team defender. He can handle some switching, definetly way better than Ayton. Aytons individual impact on defense (negative or positive), will be way bigger than Doncic's.

And Ive replied to you about seven times and every time I've said: if you draft luka, you need to get a wing defender who you can start at 4. So I have no idea why you keep bringing up Jackson into the conversation

 

[Jkbiker]

I just do not understand how people can say drafting one of the bigs (Ayton,Bagley,Bamba) is a better fit for the Kings when we have 5 Bigs ready for next year and the only true SF is Justin Jackson? If Luka is a top tier player at SF he is both top tier and our biggest need. If Management feel MPJ is going to help us more than Luka, fine but we really need a top SF. If we take Ayton at 2 then Kings better trade some Bigs for a star SF
but I have no clue where they will get one. If we are really building thru the draft we need to draft a SF

 

[Capt. Factorial]

If doncic cant guard someone they switch to justin jackson? Are u kidding me?.

Well, no. Most likely if Doncic can't guard someone they stick with Doncic and the regular rotation, and try to put together a team defensive scheme to deal with those kind of situations.

The way I see it is this: There are six players we should be considering at #2 (Ayton, Bagley, Bamba, Doncic, Jackson, Porter). One of them will be taken #1 and we will need to pick between the other five. But the thing is, NONE of these six players project to help our wing defense. Not a one. And I don't see a path for us to get a mythical LeBron-stopper in either free agency or in trade. So I think we're going to have to accept that we aren't going to have a LeBron stopper anytime soon and build our team as best we can on the assumption that we won't. We shouldn't reject ANY player in this draft at #2 because he's not a LeBron stopper - nobody available is.

So, we need to take the player who is the best player (standard BPA principle) with the caveat that if we believe players are "tied" in the BPA rankings that we can take a look at team needs/roster construction. Now I'm not sure whether Doncic is going to be BPA, or tied for BPA, or not BPA at #2 (or even not available!) but if we think he's BPA, we should take him. If we think he's tied for BPA you can at least make a pretty strong case that he fits our team needs positionally and that he probably fits the style of team (overall skill, ball movement, ball handling) that Vlade seems to want to put together. If we think somebody else is BPA, take the other guy. And forget about LeBron. We'll cross the LeBron bridge when we get to it.

 

[twslam07]

Well, no. Most likely if Doncic can't guard someone they stick with Doncic and the regular rotation, and try to put together a team defensive scheme to deal with those kind of situations.

The way I see it is this: There are six players we should be considering at #2 (Ayton, Bagley, Bamba, Doncic, Jackson, Porter). One of them will be taken #1 and we will need to pick between the other five. But the thing is, NONE of these six players project to help our wing defense. Not a one. And I don't see a path for us to get a mythical LeBron-stopper in either free agency or in trade. So I think we're going to have to accept that we aren't going to have a LeBron stopper anytime soon and build our team as best we can on the assumption that we won't. We shouldn't reject ANY player in this draft at #2 because he's not a LeBron stopper - nobody available is.

So, we need to take the player who is the best player (standard BPA principle) with the caveat that if we believe players are "tied" in the BPA rankings that we can take a look at team needs/roster construction. Now I'm not sure whether Doncic is going to be BPA, or tied for BPA, or not BPA at #2 (or even not available!) but if we think he's BPA, we should take him. If we think he's tied for BPA you can at least make a pretty strong case that he fits our team needs positionally and that he probably fits the style of team (overall skill, ball movement, ball handling) that Vlade seems to want to put together. If we think somebody else is BPA, take the other guy. And forget about LeBron. We'll cross the LeBron bridge when we get to it.

And we most likely won’t be competing for a title when LeBron is in this league. Our team is not even close to being ready.

Worrying about how we defend a player we may never have to worry about defending when it comes time to compete is wasted energy.

 

[macadocious]

Why are we comparing to LeBron? Why are we trying to draft to stop LeBron?

Besides the fact that it's not possible, he's also 33 years old and by the time we are possibly title competitive he should not be. (now of course he's LeBron and maybe he's still this good in 4 years, but history says a resounding no.)

 

[funkykingston]

Exactly.

Compete with LeBron?

Stop the Warriors?

How about just shooting for not being in the lottery for once? That's a good first goal.

 

[roasthawg]

Why are we comparing to LeBron? Why are we trying to draft to stop LeBron?

Besides the fact that it's not possible, he's also 33 years old and by the time we are possibly title competitive he should not be. (now of course he's LeBron and maybe he's still this good in 4 years, but history says a resounding no.)

It's not about LeBron, it's about the fact that Luka will need to guard guys like LeBron, KD, Giannis, Paul George, kawhi, etc on an almost nightly basis. Those guys will get their numbers vs anyone of course but you can't let them single handedly destroy you. We're picking #2 overall, our sights should be set high. We're looking for a player with big upside and a lot of that is based on length and athleticism. You either have that or you don't.

Hayward is my best comp for Luka. He's a good player and would be a nice add to this team. But he's not elite. You only get so many shots at an elite level talent. Should we play it safe and knowing that it won't be enough to make us contenders or do we take more of a risk and swing for the fences? Opportunities like this only come along once in awhile, we really need to set our sights high imo.

 

[macadocious]

I haven't seen enough of any of these guys, but Ayton seems the only potential elite guy (All NBA) but he prob goes #1 and then it doesn't matter.

Hayward would go 4th in a redraft of 2010 only behind 3 multiple all NBA players (Wall, PG, Cousins) and he might even go over Cousins.

 

[VF21]

their effective size on the floor is quite different.

Im here to discuss future scenarios not the banalities littering this thread.Forgive me for not going thru much of this drivel with a fine tooth comb

MOD VOICE: You can have a civil discussion just like everybody else. The insults are not necessary.

 

[gunks]

We should just trade the pick + Fox to Cleveland for a sign and traded Lebron. He would be an awesome 2nd fiddle, playing off Z-bo.

 

[Telemachus]

It's not about LeBron, it's about the fact that Luka will need to guard guys like LeBron, KD, Giannis, Paul George, kawhi, etc on an almost nightly basis. Those guys will get their numbers vs anyone of course but you can't let them single handedly destroy you. We're picking #2 overall, our sights should be set high. We're looking for a player with big upside and a lot of that is based on length and athleticism. You either have that or you don't.

Hayward is my best comp for Luka. He's a good player and would be a nice add to this team. But he's not elite. You only get so many shots at an elite level talent. Should we play it safe and knowing that it won't be enough to make us contenders or do we take more of a risk and swing for the fences? Opportunities like this only come along once in awhile, we really need to set our sights high imo.

None of those players are guarded effectively man to man. There is a reason they get doubled all the time. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I have to choose between a team of 5 very good individual defenders or 5 very good team defenders, I'll take the latter every time.

If you look back at the early 2000 Kings, only DC & Peja were plus individual defenders in the starting linup, but they were one of the best defensive teams in the league because they played very good team defense.

 

[VF21]

A couple of posts have been deleted.