Bizarro Wide World of Sports Lin Championship

[mac]

It's a undeniable different approach to the first year of a rebuild then. That's the point I took, rather then him "whining". Hinkie's whole design was to get the best assets available to acquire a top 10 player, which for a bad franchise is top a pick. He didn't go out at any point and use cap space on the Randolf and Hill's to "build a winning culture". He didn't keep the WCS or Skals around in an attempt to develop middling talent. And they had a plan. No ****ing around, no talk of intangibles, just a straight strategy to exploit the NBA lottery system and acquire talent.

Our strategy can't be defined at this point, but it's not what just worked in a major way for Philly. You're looking at another 25-35 win season next year with no pick and no clear all-star/super star talent, which in turn keeps you from the breakthrough talent you need and once again stuck in this endless cycle. If being frustrated about that is "whining" then fine. Enjoy the "winning culture" in perpetuity from your high horse.

But here's the thing.. in year 2/3 of their rebuild, neither did Philly! Their picks just kept sitting year after year. That's my point - are you ok with waiting another 6 years to make the playoffs, while in the meantime being completely and I mean completely uncompetitive, sitting your top picks year after year? If you're not, then don't come around telling me you'd rather be like Philly. I'm not denying that it worked for them in the end, I'm questioning your ability as a fan to really go through that process starting now or at best the day Cousins was traded.

Keeping guys like Skal around (not so much WCS) is precisely what we need to do to try and speed things up. Ultimately it boils down to how much potential you think our young guys have, and to be frank at this point they've accomplished far more than anything the Sixers did for the first 3 years.

 

[Henkel]

Yeah. I mean why would a professional basketball league need to remind a professional basketball organization that their product is a sport in which both teams are trying to win. If you are in the business of professional competition I think it's pretty silly that you need a heads up that you're supposed to compete to win all the time, not just in the post season.

Setting you're patronizing tone aside I never wrote anything against a system that discourages tanking. It's the tactics Silver used that I take issue with. Systems and institutions have rules that govern them, rules that the NBA and ownership had plenty of opportunities to amend. they're not allowed to just capriciously enforce the ideal of competition through any means they see fit. If not immoral it's at least unethical to point to a mess that you, the league office, and your partners, the majority of league owners, created and perpetuated and then to turn around and claim in shock and horror that it's unacceptable.

Hinkie didn't see his job as competing, he wanted to build a contender, which he did btw.

 

[The Effort Police]

But here's the thing.. in year 2/3 of their rebuild, neither did Philly! Their picks just kept sitting year after year. That's my point - are you ok with waiting another 6 years to make the playoffs, while in the meantime being completely and I mean completely uncompetitive, sitting your top picks year after year? If you're not, then don't come around telling me you'd rather be like Philly. I'm not denying that it worked for them in the end, I'm questioning your ability as a fan to really go through that process starting now or at best the day Cousins was traded.

Keeping guys like Skal around (not so much WCS) is precisely what we need to do to try and speed things up. Ultimately it boils down to how much potential you think our young guys have, and to be frank at this point they've accomplished far more than anything the Sixers did for the first 3 years.

I mean, we're already a shoe-in to do that with where we are right now.

 

[mac]

I mean, we're already a shoe-in to do that with where are right now.

Because you know for a fact that we have zero star players on the team after the indisputable evidence of one season.

The Sixers on the other hand were clearly set for a championship the day they drafted Nerlens Noel? Okafor? Oh no no, it was the day they drafted Embiid and they made the playoffs that season. Oh no, wait.. Simmons, the year they drafted Simmons! Those Sixers draft picks really hit the ground running from day 1!

 

[The Effort Police]

Based on the fact that...?

We're not talented.

 

[Henkel]

But here's the thing.. in year 2/3 of their rebuild, neither did Philly! Their picks just kept sitting year after year. That's my point - are you ok with waiting another 6 years to make the playoffs, while in the meantime being completely and I mean completely uncompetitive, sitting your top picks year after year? If you're not, then don't come around telling me you'd rather be like Philly. I'm not denying that it worked for them in the end, I'm questioning your ability as a fan to really go through that process starting now or at best the day Cousins was traded.

I don't watch the team much anymore because of the issues I'm voicing. Watched pretty much every game for a decade of losing, but what I see as poor management decisions and ownership has worn me down. A change in tactics to something like Philly is doing would actually get me excited. You hate watching tanking while I'm frustrated with a seemingly endless stream of mediocrity. Let's not argue taste.

Keeping guys like Skal around (not so much WCS) is precisely what we need to do to try and speed things up. Ultimately it boils down to how much potential you think our young guys have, and to be frank at this point they've accomplished far more than anything the Sixers did for the first 3 years.

I don't understand pointing to 26 wins vs 10 wins as some sort of accomplishment. The accomplishment would be to identify and bring in talent with the hope of accomplishing something meaningful. I don't think what the King's have done puts them in better position to do that compared to Philly's timeline.

 

[mac]

I don't watch the team much anymore because of the issues I'm voicing. Watched pretty much every game for a decade of losing, but what I see as poor management decisions and ownership has worn me down. A change in tactics to something like Philly is doing would actually get me excited. You hate watching tanking while I'm frustrated with a seemingly endless stream of mediocrity. Let's not argue taste.


I don't understand pointing to 26 wins vs 10 wins as some sort of accomplishment. The accomplishment would be to identify and bring in talent with the hope of accomplishing something meaningful. I don't think what the King's have done puts them in better position to do that compared to Philly's timeline.

And again, it all comes down to how much talent you think we have. As I've said, in first 3 years of Philly's rebuild they didn't have anyone either. That basically gives us 2 years with current group to see if there's any talent, and if not, fine go all out and tank again. You'd have pretty much the same assets that they did in Noel and Okafor. Embiid had and continues to have a huge injury risk. I just don't understand why you and others are so insistent that we have no talent when the Sixers were even worse off. I mean if we're winning more games with our young untalented guys than Philly did with their future HOFers...

 

[Joshoua]

The nba saved everyone by firing Hinkie dude would’ve just drafted Tatum at 3 and still had multiple 1st round picks to trade

 

[allrightythen]

Setting you're patronizing tone aside I never wrote anything against a system that discourages tanking. It's the tactics Silver used that I take issue with. Systems and institutions have rules that govern them, rules that the NBA and ownership had plenty of opportunities to amend. they're not allowed to just capriciously enforce the ideal of competition through any means they see fit. If not immoral it's at least unethical to point to a mess that you, the league office, and your partners, the majority of league owners, created and perpetuated and then to turn around and claim in shock and horror that it's unacceptable.

Hinkie didn't see his job as competing, he wanted to build a contender, which he did btw.

They are a private organization and can influence their members how they see fit. If the bylaws or rules aren't clear they probably need updating, I think we can agree on that; but the NBA's inability to clearly articulate their governing values on competition should not be license to ignore them. Trying to field a winning team on a nightly and yearly basis is pretty basic ideal. If owners or organizations need that spelled out for them they probably don't belong in the NBA.

 

[jcwkings]

We are officially guaranteed the 6th or 7th slot. A loss to Houston clinches the 6th.

 

[kingdivac]

A 6th worst record nets at best the 4th pick, and at worst the 8th?

 

[allrightythen]

A 6th worst record nets at best the 4th pick, and at worst the 8th?

What do you mean? Isn't the 4th pick not possible? My understanding was they have a chance at 1-3 if they move up and then 6-8 if they don't.

 

[biltalent]

A 6th worst record nets at best the 4th pick, and at worst the 8th?

No, it either gets you move up to 1, 2, 3, stay at 6 or fall to 7, 8, 9.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

As jcwkings pointed out above, with the Kings' loss tonight they are guaranteed either the #6 or tied for #6/#7 in the lottery. There are only two relevant games remaining in the season, both on Wednesday.

Houston @ Sacramento
Detroit @ Chicago

That's it. If the Kings win and the Bulls lose, the Kings and Bulls will each get 53 lotto combos, and there will be a coin flip to determine who takes the "default" 6th slot and who takes the "default" 7th slot. In any other result, the Kings get the 6th slot and 63 lotto combos. Because the Kings game starts two and a half hours after the Bulls game, it's possible the Kings will have the #6 slot locked up before tip-off.

The real lotto drama for anybody who isn't a Kings fans is now the 3/4/5 tie between the Hawks, Mavs, and Magic. Two of those teams play tomorrow, with the Hawks nearly certain to lose to Philly, and the Mavs in an eminently winnable game hosting the Suns. Finally on Wednesday, the Magic host the Wizards.

 

[Henkel]

And again, it all comes down to how much talent you think we have. As I've said, in first 3 years of Philly's rebuild they didn't have anyone either. That basically gives us 2 years with current group to see if there's any talent, and if not, fine go all out and tank again. You'd have pretty much the same assets that they did in Noel and Okafor. Embiid had and continues to have a huge injury risk. I just don't understand why you and others are so insistent that we have no talent when the Sixers were even worse off. I mean if we're winning more games with our young untalented guys than Philly did with their future HOFers...

This isn't year two. Hinkie tenure starts when he's hired but Vlade's started with the Cousins trade? You're the one call people out for unfair comparisons?

So let's parse this logic. Vlade come here to win with Cousins. Fails, and in the process of doing so cripples the organization by trading away a future pick and a swap to sign Rondo. That swap was of course used by Philly, costing the Kings a top 3 pick. Without a future pick he trades Cousins, at this point what you call the Kings rebuild I see as a awkward pivot. The organization literally cannot do a Philly style rebuild because of Vlade's decision to trade that pick. Which is a important point. None of this is a plan, it's all a reaction to Vlade's poor decision making. Vlade himself states this idea of a quick reload. By the end of next season were suppose to in a better position with a better young core then we had with Cousins in previous years. Vlade owns all of this and for you to neglect large chucks of it including the part where Hinkie straight robbed Vlade of assets is amazing.

How does a team that hasn't won 35 games in a decade decide to rebuild anyways? The whole things a fallacy that requires you to ignore history and context.

Which gets us to Philly. You describe how they're according to you "worse of" because they're winning less game two years into Hinkie's tenure compared to four years into Vlade's. Well you didn't make that comparison, you ignored it, but I won't. At which point they have Embiid and a load of assets that will soon include our 2019 pick. Not bad even at the time. And with the benefit of hindsight it turns out what Hinkie was holding was actually pretty damn great.

 

[mac]

This isn't year two. Hinkie tenure starts when he's hired but Vlade's started with the Cousins trade? You're the one call people out for unfair comparisons?

So let's parse this logic. Vlade come here to win with Cousins. Fails, and in the process of doing so cripples the organization by trading away a future pick and a swap to sign Rondo. That swap was of course used by Philly, costing the Kings a top 3 pick. Without a future pick he trades Cousins, at this point what you call the Kings rebuild I see as a awkward pivot. The organization literally cannot do a Philly style rebuild because of Vlade's decision to trade that pick. Which is a important point. None of this is a plan, it's all a reaction to Vlade's poor decision making. Vlade himself states this idea of a quick reload. By the end of next season were suppose to in a better position with a better young core then we had with Cousins in previous years. Vlade owns all of this and for you to neglect large chucks of it including the part where Hinkie straight robbed Vlade of assets is amazing.

How does a team that hasn't won 35 games in a decade decide to rebuild anyways? The whole things a fallacy that requires you to ignore history and context.

Which gets us to Philly. You describe how they're according to you "worse of" because they're winning less game two years into Hinkie's tenure compared to four years into Vlade's. Well you didn't make that comparison, you ignored it, but I won't. At which point they have Embiid and a load of assets that will soon include our 2019 pick. Not bad even at the time. And with the benefit of hindsight it turns out what Hinkie was holding was actually pretty damn great.

I'm not arguing about Vlade's whole tenure. I'm arguing about starting this year. As I've said, if you want to start from Vlade's start then we should have been tanking with Cousins, which pretty much nobody was advocating. I'm not concerned with evaluating Vlade's performance overall, I'm concerned with the idea that fans are unhappy we aren't going full Sixers tank mode this year. My personal opinion is we should have traded Cousins years ago.

I mean, by all means continue to be unhappy about what Vlade's done in the Cousins era, I won't argue that. But I was taking the starting point of this year for comparison against the Sixers rebuild, since the OP said they'd be happier with where Philly is than (assumedly) our current position.

 

[Henkel]

I'm not arguing about Vlade's whole tenure. I'm arguing about starting this year. As I've said, if you want to start from Vlade's start then we should have been tanking with Cousins, which pretty much nobody was advocating. I'm not concerned with evaluating Vlade's performance overall, I'm concerned with the idea that fans are unhappy we aren't going full Sixers tank mode this year. My personal opinion is we should have traded Cousins years ago.

I mean, by all means continue to be unhappy about what Vlade's done in the Cousins era, I won't argue that. But I was taking the starting point of this year for comparison against the Sixers rebuild, since the OP said they'd be happier with where Philly is than (assumedly) our current position.

I didn't read it that way. I saw him venting frustration with the Kings for not prioritizing losing in the short term for long term gains. Like Philly did. Not that we, regardless of who the gm is, are going to try to emulate exactly what the 6ers did. That would of course be ridiculous, because of the history and position of the two organization being wildly differnt in the lead up to what you're calling the post Cousins era vs the process.

 

[Tetsujin]

But here's the thing.. in year 2/3 of their rebuild, neither did Philly! Their picks just kept sitting year after year. That's my point - are you ok with waiting another 6 years to make the playoffs, while in the meantime being completely and I mean completely uncompetitive, sitting your top picks year after year? If you're not, then don't come around telling me you'd rather be like Philly. I'm not denying that it worked for them in the end, I'm questioning your ability as a fan to really go through that process starting now or at best the day Cousins was traded.

Keeping guys like Skal around (not so much WCS) is precisely what we need to do to try and speed things up. Ultimately it boils down to how much potential you think our young guys have, and to be frank at this point they've accomplished far more than anything the Sixers did for the first 3 years.

What people seem to magically forget whenever they trip all over themselves to praise Hinkie is that the dude, while good at accumulating assets, was horrible at doing anything with them. Aside from Embiid (who really sorta fell into his lap more than anything) and Saric (who was a pick that he didn't actually pick but rather traded for after the fact), the man would give the late Maloof-era/PDA era Kings a run for their money in horrible draft choices.

 

[mac]

I didn't read it that way. I saw him venting frustration with the Kings for not prioritizing losing in the short term for long term gains. Like Philly did. Not that we, regardless of who the gm is, are going to try to emulate exactly what the 6ers did. That would of course be ridiculous, because of the history and position of the two organization being wildly differnt in the lead up to what you're calling the post Cousins era vs the process.

I quote:

None of this back and forth crap that the kings did this year. The sixers played the game and they are coming out ahead. The kings? They can’t get out of their own way. They have no clue what they are doing.

The system is what the system is. The sixers played the game and look at them. I’d take what the sixers did and what they have in a second over what the kings are doing and what they currently have.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what Vlade did when Cousins was around. That the Sixers "played the game" and came out ahead clearly refers to tanking over multiple seasons.

 

[fnordius]

Dirk's elective ankle surgery obviously can't wait until after the Phoenix game.

Update summary: Dallas up by 10 at halftime, tied in the middle of the third, down by 26 with 4 minutes to play. Blatant.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Mavs were a disgrace tonight. A 20+ point home loss to the Suns? What an embarrassment.

 

[gunks]

I've always been a low key believer in lotto conspiracy theories.

I really hope Silver drops Memphis, Phoenix, and Dallas in the lotto.

Naturally with us moving up... our tank was half assed at best, we deserve some "luck"!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I've always been a low key believer in lotto conspiracy theories.

I really hope Silver drops Memphis, Phoenix, and Dallas in the lotto.

Naturally with us moving up... our tank was half assed at best, we deserve some "luck"!

It would be a lot easier for Silver to manipulate the lottery if there weren't representatives from all 14 lotto teams in the room for the ball draw.

 

[jiimbob]

Dirk's elective ankle surgery obviously can't wait until after the Phoenix game.

Update summary: Dallas up by 10 at halftime, tied in the middle of the third, down by 26 with 4 minutes to play. Blatant.

This keeps Dallas in the race to Lin out over Atlanta and Orlando. No further comment.

 

[gunks]

It would be a lot easier for Silver to manipulate the lottery if there weren't representatives from all 14 lotto teams in the room for the ball draw.

Just let me have my "flat earther" moment!

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Just let me have my "flat earther" moment!

Sure, just watch those ice mountains at the outer rim, OK? If you go over them, it's a long way down.

 

[VF21]

Just let me have my "flat earther" moment!

Watch out in the uncharted waters:

 

[jiimbob]

One more game and happy holidays, end of another regular season.
Houston has no reason to play their vets against a Kings team in Sacramento. Detroit has no reason to win in Chicago other than give their players some final burn. They are out of the playoff picture and a win or lose means nothing as to their lottery order.
Will Chicago show some pride in their final home game? or roll over hoping to win the coin toss against Sacramento who I'm pretty sure will play to win.

 

[sactowndog]

Now that Memphis can win a couple of games without falling below #2, they're a transformed team.

(Win over Pistons, 130-117, with 58% shooting, 35 minutes by Gasol, and so on.)

Memphis is going to be a very good team next year. Point: Conley Wings: Evans, Doncic, Parsons. Bigs: Gasol, Green, Davis

Their blatant tank and success will just further reinforce the wisdom of the model versus the Kings approach.

 

[sactowndog]

What people seem to magically forget whenever they trip all over themselves to praise Hinkie is that the dude, while good at accumulating assets, was horrible at doing anything with them. Aside from Embiid (who really sorta fell into his lap more than anything) and Saric (who was a pick that he didn't actually pick but rather traded for after the fact), the man would give the late Maloof-era/PDA era Kings a run for their money in horrible draft choices.

I think you left out Simmons. Which is why being first matters. It’s hard for even a bad drafting team to mess up.