Rebuild Strategy (or WE WANT LINS!)
- Thread starter dude12
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The complexion of the franchise has kind of changed for me with Fox’s development.. I really wish dude played somewhat how he did during the first few weeks the rest of the season... we’ve gone to being assured he was a strong franchise piece to doubting if he’s starter material long term.. tremendously disappointed in him
Man the Lakers young guys are so versitile and are starting to gel with all of the court time they have been seeing. The Lakers have a switchable long wing lineup that really gives new style teams like the Dubs and Rockets fits. (While we have zero wing prospects perticularly defensively) I wish we would stick with our struggling young guys no matter what like they have done with Randle/Ingram/Kuz/ and mainly Lonzo. Its starting to really pay off. It sucks that they have figured it(Let the youth play 35+ mins) out before we have.
Lonzo plays 35 mins weather he shoots 1-15 or 15-15 and he knows he has the trust of his coach no matter what happens. Knowing that you wont be benched for George Hill next game for missing too many shots is invaluable for a young player. Knowing that your coach has that much confidence in you figuring it out means the world to a young player.
Kings beat them last time out Nov. 22. Six Kings in double figures Buddy, Willie, Frank, Bogie, Fox and ZBO:
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Poo poo? Really? Poo poo? Why didn’t you just call me a doody head? Are you twelve years old? I didn’t twist anything, you’re the one doing the twisting. I expressed my opinions on how I perceive some of the attitudes displayed on here without singling anybody out (which I could have). You have taken offense to a couple of my posts not referencing you in anyway and singled me out replying sarcastically and caustically. You said I was “just talking to myself”. Well, I’m talking to you, now. You are apparently some kind of self-appointed expert. You have appointed yourself as a spokesperson for what the forum has said and not said “no one here is saying that Joerger should have the young guys out there all the time”. Well you are wrong, check the poll at the top of the page, in this very small sample size, at least 4 people are saying exactly that and it has been expressed in posts to the forum numerous times in their “well thought out opinions”. As for me saying “that they would be disappointed if we were winning by the young players developing and playing well“, it’s my opinion, (based on the vehement way some have posted) that they would still be disappointed with winning because they are so obsessed with the lottery position, getting those all-important “lins”. Again, my opinion, a supposition! Not a known fact, it can’t be proven at this point because the situation of playing all young guys and them winning has not occurred. But, I get to express my opinion and that is not twisting anything.
Here’s the thing, I don’t know the best process for a rebuild. I’m not an expert, like you, never managed an NBA team, never coached an NBA team, never played in the NBA, been to one NBA game in my life. But the rebuild process the Kings have chosen seems reasonable to me, my opinion. (I have already expressed what I think the process is, in this very thread). I am willing to give it time. Maybe it doesn’t work, maybe it does. Other people have different opinions, that’s fine. They may be right. But, for gosh sake, when they do play well and pull out the occasional win, let us enjoy the win without hammering the game thread with all the pompous negativity about how the win is killing their lottery chances and the rebuild is a big failure. That’s just rude and boorish.
Now, I have a personal solution to cleaning up the game threads, I have put 4 people on ignore. It’s amazing how just putting 4 people on ignore cleaned up the game thread for me. I don’t really like to use ignore because I want to be exposed to different opinions. But, I put one on because he basically seemed to just be a troll looking for attention. I put 3 others because I found them to be rude, boorish, opinionated, dogmatic, just basically obnoxious. I choose not to engage with them. You make number 5.
Here’s the thing, I don’t know the best process for a rebuild. I’m not an expert, like you, never managed an NBA team, never coached an NBA team, never played in the NBA, been to one NBA game in my life. But the rebuild process the Kings have chosen seems reasonable to me, my opinion. (I have already expressed what I think the process is, in this very thread). I am willing to give it time. Maybe it doesn’t work, maybe it does. Other people have different opinions, that’s fine. They may be right. But, for gosh sake, when they do play well and pull out the occasional win, let us enjoy the win without hammering the game thread with all the pompous negativity about how the win is killing their lottery chances and the rebuild is a big failure. That’s just rude and boorish.
Now, I have a personal solution to cleaning up the game threads, I have put 4 people on ignore. It’s amazing how just putting 4 people on ignore cleaned up the game thread for me. I don’t really like to use ignore because I want to be exposed to different opinions. But, I put one on because he basically seemed to just be a troll looking for attention. I put 3 others because I found them to be rude, boorish, opinionated, dogmatic, just basically obnoxious. I choose not to engage with them. You make number 5.
Bad day? You may be surprised but the game threads are pretty cleaned up without the people being on ignore. Most posters seem to have taken the hint.
I like seeing both sides. Both sides have got good points. And the sad fact is, even if Vlade's plan doesn't work it doesn't mean the other plan would have. And vice-versa. Both sides have inherent risks. ESP47 usually has good points. T'is the season for forgiveness.
Oh, and go Kings! Beat the Spurs!
I like seeing both sides. Both sides have got good points. And the sad fact is, even if Vlade's plan doesn't work it doesn't mean the other plan would have. And vice-versa. Both sides have inherent risks. ESP47 usually has good points. T'is the season for forgiveness.
Oh, and go Kings! Beat the Spurs!
Thanks, but by saying I twisted things around, basically saying that I was making it up that there were people saying "that Joerger should have the young guys out there all the time", he was pretty much calling me dishonest and a liar. That crosses the line with me. I can tolerate saying I misunderstood something, that I was mistaken, but not that I was being dishonest deliberately twisting things. It's kind of the second time he has implied that.
I agree about the rebuild, either method could work or fail, we just don't know. Too may variables, what works for one team under one set of circumstances may not work for another and vice-versa.
Looking forward to the game, not expecting a win, though, looking to see improvement and growth, no slow start, competitive, fight to the end.
I agree about the rebuild, either method could work or fail, we just don't know. Too may variables, what works for one team under one set of circumstances may not work for another and vice-versa.
Looking forward to the game, not expecting a win, though, looking to see improvement and growth, no slow start, competitive, fight to the end.
Ball has a much more NBA ready body and has an established elite skill that was going to transition to the NBA day 1. Fox doesn't have one on top of being extremely frail which makes it impossible for him to defend well. Fox has a ton of raw potential and legendary speed. You don't develop those two type of players the same way.
I said I'd only post in here for MOD reasons, so here goes:
ESP47 didn't say poo poo. He said s***. We have profanity filters in place. A few years ago the board owner created some defaults. If you try and post s***, the board changes it to poo poo. I don't know what, if anything, defaults to "doody head" but I might work on it.
You guys are both passionate fans. The game thread debate is over. See rule 1a of the FAQ tagged at the top of the Kings Rap forum listing.
Okay, I'm outta here. If you and ESP47 want to continue your debate, you'll need to do it via the "conversation." Thanks.
GO KINGS!!
Having not a lot of vets is not like "cutting the wings off", not even close. Teams have large coaching staffs with a lot of recourses put towards player developement and vets are there more for helping to adjust for the nba life. Thats what vets like Tolliver are for.
Getting more playing time and a larger role to explore the game is at least equally valuable to sitting behind an established veteran. There is value for getting to learn the game behind a vet but suggesting that by not doing that is like "cutting the wings off" is just plain wrong. Player developes by time, rookies very rarely are contributing to winning basketball but by year two they start getting it either way.
The most important thing is to put the organization in a position to get their franchise player. You very rarely get it via free agency so you need to draft it. I wrote about this last offseason a lot so i dont want to dig up all the links I used but there is mathematical evidence that your odds to draft franchise player are considerabily lower outside of top 3.
Watching a losing team is not fun but it is without a doubt the smartest way to rebuild for the team like Kings. It requires that its done with patience, gaining assets intelligently and drafting well. But it should not even be a debate wether it is the smartest way to go.
Fringe playoff contender is not hard to build through free agency and mid round drafting but building a sustainable playoff team requires rebuild if you dont have your franchise player yet. When you get the franchise player and decide its time to build for winning now, then you use the vets and ease the rookies in to the league but there is no need for that when you are not ready to go win now mode. The idea for rookies sitting behind vets is great for win now teams since rookies usually dont play winning basketball. Its unneccesary for teams that need to have as high draft position as possible.
Getting a lot of vets possibly moves your team from bottom 3 to outside of bottom 6 and that dramtically decrases the odds to succeed in the draft. You get vets like Tolliver to maintain the culture, you get coaches who makes the team play hard no matter the score like Brett Brown. You get gm who can identify those Covington like undrafted talents and who can gather assets via trades. You hope to get a top talent in draft and it becomes way easier when you are in top 3 in lottery.
This post wasnt only for you ockingsfan, its more my own opinion of rebuilding. I just quoted you because of that "cutting the wings off" metaphor.
Getting more playing time and a larger role to explore the game is at least equally valuable to sitting behind an established veteran. There is value for getting to learn the game behind a vet but suggesting that by not doing that is like "cutting the wings off" is just plain wrong. Player developes by time, rookies very rarely are contributing to winning basketball but by year two they start getting it either way.
The most important thing is to put the organization in a position to get their franchise player. You very rarely get it via free agency so you need to draft it. I wrote about this last offseason a lot so i dont want to dig up all the links I used but there is mathematical evidence that your odds to draft franchise player are considerabily lower outside of top 3.
Watching a losing team is not fun but it is without a doubt the smartest way to rebuild for the team like Kings. It requires that its done with patience, gaining assets intelligently and drafting well. But it should not even be a debate wether it is the smartest way to go.
Fringe playoff contender is not hard to build through free agency and mid round drafting but building a sustainable playoff team requires rebuild if you dont have your franchise player yet. When you get the franchise player and decide its time to build for winning now, then you use the vets and ease the rookies in to the league but there is no need for that when you are not ready to go win now mode. The idea for rookies sitting behind vets is great for win now teams since rookies usually dont play winning basketball. Its unneccesary for teams that need to have as high draft position as possible.
Getting a lot of vets possibly moves your team from bottom 3 to outside of bottom 6 and that dramtically decrases the odds to succeed in the draft. You get vets like Tolliver to maintain the culture, you get coaches who makes the team play hard no matter the score like Brett Brown. You get gm who can identify those Covington like undrafted talents and who can gather assets via trades. You hope to get a top talent in draft and it becomes way easier when you are in top 3 in lottery.
This post wasnt only for you ockingsfan, its more my own opinion of rebuilding. I just quoted you because of that "cutting the wings off" metaphor.
Which team in the NBA has ever gone the route of throwing all 1st and second year players out on the floor, without quality veteran leadership, and have gone on to be top flight playoff teams?
Also, going that route does not guarantee you a top 3 pick, you can just as easily wind up picking number 6, 7 or 8.
Also, going that route does not guarantee you a top 3 pick, you can just as easily wind up picking number 6, 7 or 8.
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Real tanking is fairly new thing. Philly really did it and Im sure they are happy about it in hindsight.
And yeah its a lottery but as I said the most important thing is to put yourself in a situation where you have the best possible odds to get to top 3. The odds are significantly better if you are 2nd in lottery rather than 6-9 seed. The benefit is bigger to be in 1-3 in lottery compared to Zbo and Grant Hill getting you "meaningless" wins and being 7th in lottery.
And yeah its a lottery but as I said the most important thing is to put yourself in a situation where you have the best possible odds to get to top 3. The odds are significantly better if you are 2nd in lottery rather than 6-9 seed. The benefit is bigger to be in 1-3 in lottery compared to Zbo and Grant Hill getting you "meaningless" wins and being 7th in lottery.
Completely Agree. Unless you're a team like the Spurs, who are amazing at finding gems later in the draft. Kings are horrible at scouting and thus have drafted very few good players through the years. The other issue is the Kings have been more mediocre than bad for the past 32 years.(Since 1985) So, they usually end up drafting well out of the Top 5. To Put it in perspective, The Kings Have had A Top 5 pick only 5 times in 32 years. Yet, they have only been to the playoffs 9 times in 32 years. Kings may have the worst drafting record in the History of the NBA.
Where do we want to be for this draft? I keep reading that it’s five deep, meaning that the first five picks are going to be special (as in #1 picks in a typical draft). So I’ve been repeating that I want us to be in the top five. But, admittedly, that isn’t based on research or analysis.
So is the top (bottom) five what we want and need? More recently I’ve seen posters say top three. Others say top six. And then there’s the little issue of your odds of picking where your won/loss record says you should pick. So do we need to finish in the bottom three to virtually guarantee a top five pick? Is there a consensus among the tankers on these two issues?
So is the top (bottom) five what we want and need? More recently I’ve seen posters say top three. Others say top six. And then there’s the little issue of your odds of picking where your won/loss record says you should pick. So do we need to finish in the bottom three to virtually guarantee a top five pick? Is there a consensus among the tankers on these two issues?
As a "tanker" myself, first of all I would like that our young players were the ones getting the w's or the L's. With the draft position I obviously would prefer us being the number 1 in lottery and therefore be in the best possible position to succeed. I would trade Hill, Zbo (if someone wants his contract), Kosta for assets, ride the rest of the season with young players and they will dictate our lottery position.
Im no expert on college players and there is very little analysis available at the moment but to me it looks like a top four draft: Bagley, Ayton, Donic and Porter. All of them are good size, Porter and Bagley look like prototypical "current nba" wing (premium position), Donic already has one elite skill and Ayton seems to be perfect fit for a big man for current nba.
Im no expert on college players and there is very little analysis available at the moment but to me it looks like a top four draft: Bagley, Ayton, Donic and Porter. All of them are good size, Porter and Bagley look like prototypical "current nba" wing (premium position), Donic already has one elite skill and Ayton seems to be perfect fit for a big man for current nba.
http://www.nbadraft.net/2018mock_draft
I would say top 4 (Ayton, Doncic, Bagley and Porter) are the higher percentage "go to" guys that the Kings need. All of them fill a need currently.
Trae Young has shot up the mock draft charts and nbadraft.net has us taking him at 5. Check him out if you haven't seen or heard much about him. He's as boom or bust as it gets as a prospect. He shoots lights out (takes nine 3's a game at a 41% clip and shoots them from Curry land), has great handles and is probably the best or one of the best passers in college right now. So we know he's not Jimmer but he is very small and would need to niche out his spot on defense like Curry does with savvy stealing skills, otherwise he's going to give up on the defense what he gives you on offense.
For me, it's 4 players with Trae Young being the wild card at 5. A few of the other guys like Jackson, both Bridges, Knox and Carter are intriguing prospects but they don't move the needle for me like the top 4 do.
I'm hoping we're getting to the point where we can start making trades. Phasing the vets out, playing the kids more, getting more on court development with some more losses added in. Right now the Kings have the worst +/- in the league. So they should be in last place right now but they've won some close games that has them tied for the 5th worst record. I'd like to be in the bottom 3 by the end of the year to give us better odds at landing one of those top 4 guys.
I would say top 4 (Ayton, Doncic, Bagley and Porter) are the higher percentage "go to" guys that the Kings need. All of them fill a need currently.
Trae Young has shot up the mock draft charts and nbadraft.net has us taking him at 5. Check him out if you haven't seen or heard much about him. He's as boom or bust as it gets as a prospect. He shoots lights out (takes nine 3's a game at a 41% clip and shoots them from Curry land), has great handles and is probably the best or one of the best passers in college right now. So we know he's not Jimmer but he is very small and would need to niche out his spot on defense like Curry does with savvy stealing skills, otherwise he's going to give up on the defense what he gives you on offense.
For me, it's 4 players with Trae Young being the wild card at 5. A few of the other guys like Jackson, both Bridges, Knox and Carter are intriguing prospects but they don't move the needle for me like the top 4 do.
I'm hoping we're getting to the point where we can start making trades. Phasing the vets out, playing the kids more, getting more on court development with some more losses added in. Right now the Kings have the worst +/- in the league. So they should be in last place right now but they've won some close games that has them tied for the 5th worst record. I'd like to be in the bottom 3 by the end of the year to give us better odds at landing one of those top 4 guys.