[Game] Kings v. Nuggets, Monday, 11/20 - 7 PT

[Siranthony]

I can tell when we are going to win a game within the first few minutes of the game. When the team comes out with a competitive fire and is giving 110% we will most likely win. If they look a little tired it is over.

We have a lot of young players who are developing. They are not ready for prime time yet. Have some patience. When these guys are good enough to hit shots on off nights, watch out!

 

[kingsfan1984]

We have to walk an incredibly fine line in this rebuild - be bad enough to get a future all-star in the 2018 draft, then hope to be good enough to give up only a mid-teens pick in the 2019 draft. As a computer named Joshua once said: "A strange game. The only winning move is not to play."

Im starting to think the lost pick in 2019 should be viewed just as a bust pick and we look to get 1 more top pick in 2020...then with our young guys seasoned we start our push for a ring

Im going to assume 1 guy from current team reaches All star level, the pick next year will be a super star, the 2019 draftvwill be worse than the Bmac draft talent wise (no big lose), and we again draft a superstar in 2020....then we RISE

 

[Larry89]

Z-bo guiding us to that #1 pick

 

[itzcoatl]

Im starting to think the lost pick in 2019 should be viewed just as a bust pick and we look to get 1 more top pick in 2020...then with our young guys seasoned we start our push for a ring

Im going to assume 1 guy from current team reaches All star level, the pick next year will be a super star, the 2019 draftvwill be worse than the Bmac draft talent wise (no big lose), and we again draft a superstar in 2020....then we RISE

This is kinda what I am resigning myself to as well. That 2019 pick is going to hurt real bad. This rebuild is going to take until 2021 at the earliest. Many of our players should be developed and moved for picks later.

Fox could turn out to be a real solid player maybe all star if we are lucky. Then hope we can pull a top 5 next year which nets Ayton, Porter, Bagley, Doncic or Bamba. Then 2019 is a wash. Then 2020 another high pick. Then another year for Fox, 2018 pick and 2020 pick to gel.

 

[The Effort Police]

WCS was starting and he was trash. Skal has been even worse in his limited minutes.

I wouldn't be broken up if we sell high on WCS and get a decent return. I don't think his value is super high though, so I'd still rather ride it out and see if he figures out how to "try". He could still be a good player if he wants to be...


Sorry gang, I don't think we'll have any instant gratification with these kids. Reke and Cuz spoiled us.

I mean Reke is fair enough, but DMC wasn't as clear cut from day 1. He put up great numbers his rookie campaign and it was obvious he had a future in the league, but was an inefficient chucker (43% shooting for a C), a turnover and foul machine, couldn't play defense, and of course the attitude issues. It wasn't until his fourth year that he emerged as an obvious all-star level player, he was sort of on the cusp on people wondering whether or not he could be that in his second and third seasons.

They still handed the keys to him from the get go.

 

[The_Jamal]

Z-bo guiding us to that #1 pick

This. Utterly sick of ZBO already and he's ruining quite a bit of what I wanted this season about; seeing if any of the kids have the ability to be a lead offensive weapon. And he's utter trash on the defensive end and still old and out of shape.

 

[Vladizzle]

This. Utterly sick of ZBO already and he's ruining quite a bit of what I wanted this season about; seeing if any of the kids have the ability to be a lead offensive weapon. And he's utter trash on the defensive end and still old and out of shape.

What do you want him to do?

Dave is focusing our offense and making him the focal point. I'm sure even Zbo is like 'uh okay sure I guess'.

Zbo should be coming off the bench to provide spark offense and easy buckets. Starting and focusing around him is insane especially for a developing team.

 

[Larry David]

We have to walk an incredibly fine line in this rebuild - be bad enough to get a future all-star in the 2018 draft, then hope to be good enough to give up only a mid-teens pick in the 2019 draft."

Pick in the teens? There Kings are going to be really bad in 2019. They aren't tanking now, they are just bad. And whoever they draft this summer won't change that a ton next season.

Based upon what they've done, what they have, Sacramento, and 10 years of being bad, the Kings will be extremely fortunate to emerge from this current tear down with a rebuilt playoff team in 3 seasons (with this season being the first).

If they are both trying to get this dog of a franchise back up on its feet and win more games next year to save face on the stupid 76ers trade, the resulting damage with either extend or derail the rebuild.

 

[Larry David]

One needs to also consider the trade value of the vets as far as playing time goes.

No, just no.

Vince and Z-Bo have no value to other teams. We over paid them to be babysitters. Taking salary off the table, it's unclear whether anyone would want Z-Bo for their playoff rotation. But, why would anyone construct a trade that moves 12 million of prorated 17-18 salary for Z-Bo? And be on the hook for a season year of that contract? Nobody wants that!

Hill has played better, but right now, nobody wants him at 19 million for the 18-19 season. Nobody.

Kufos is still fairly productive and has a fair contract (some would say good, but I think he would sign for close to 8.3 if he was a free agent right now). So, that's a plus. But, the league is full of big men that most teams can't give away. The center market is depressed. While Kufos would give a contender depth and a back-up center, it's unclear he'd bee among the top 8 guys for anybody making a run at going deep in the playoffs. So, teams would take him for the right prices but certainly aren't looking to break the bank when replacement level backup centers are readily available to absorb for very little.

The Kings broke the 10 pick from the 17 draft and 7 pick from the 16 draft into several chances. Fox is their only blue chip prospect. As such, a franchise with a horrible record for developing has charted a path of developing non-blue chip prospects into an all-star, quality, starters, and high end depth. They hope to do that in a locker room that has turned toxic each of the past 3 springs.

Trying to make plan A work, while worrying about juicing and flipping the value of the vets along the way would be a bridge too far for well run and owned teams. And the Kings are neither well run nor owned.

 

[The Effort Police]

The mindset of just putting all the young guys out there for 30 minutes per game and everything will be wonderful is an incorrect one. The youth is playing whether it be big minutes or smaller stretches. If they want more minutes then don't suck.

Throwing guys out there isn't a wonderful recipe for winning, but it is all hunky dory for a rebuild. You can say what you want about that approach, but it isn't a wrong way like you're thinking. Teams have done it before and will do it again, and any future franchise success won't be hindered because of it. No one rebuilds like we're doing. There may be vets but no one hands the keys over to them instead at the expense of the young players. There's one other team I can think of in recent memory that did that, and I'll get to them in a second.

Or if we're going to have veterans on this team, do it right. It's what the Nets are doing right now with a youngish player with some experience in Crabbe and a not-ancient 3&D and motor vet in Carroll while handing the keys over to Russell. We shelled out mountains of cash for ill fitting vets: a washed up bum who got arrested before the season and the offense runs around and is the coach's favorite player, and a PG who's never run an offense in his life so we had to shift him over to the 2 and have our rookie guards do it instead.

We're the Byron Scott Lakers; that's what this reminds me of. Their veterans were a washed up bum that they built the offense around and was the coach's favorite (sound familiar), and the Chuck Brothers Lou Williams and Swaggy P, all coached by notorious rookie hater Byron Scott. It didn't matter if they were tanking and it didn't matter if they were losing. No one would dare defend that hackjob because not only did that team fail to spare anyone's eyes, but also wasted everyone's time including their own.

 

[Larry David]

Agree effort police. If the Kings had lots younger-vets and 2-3 young players, I could see advancing those 2-3 young players through roles to slowly train them up and maintain pieces that help in 2-3 years (younger vets).

1. The Kings vets are at the end of the line of their NBA careers. By the team is good, the vets will be gone.
2. The Kings have a ton of young players. They vary from, should be great, just need time, maybe?, who knows????, and looooooog shot.
3. Like all things in life, NBA development is about reps and doing.

By playing vets, they are delaying both development and player evaluation that needs to occur now.

The last justification is well, getting beat by 30 every night isn't good for the culture or locker room. True, dat. You know what else is bad for the culture and locker room? 6-8 young players who have no idea if they are going to play, how long they are going to play, how long they sit between stints, who they play with, ect. on a team getting beat by 15 most nights. It's just not.

They aren't tearing the band aid off because the product will be so bad, it will damage ticket sales during the remaining honeymoon for the new arena. Or the coach, GM and owner don't know what they are doing / how these things work? Or both.

 

[Jkbiker]

If WCS needs to play the 4 with Kosta, thats fine start them both , Skal belongs in the second unit, have him play with Zbo
Fox and Hill with Bogs at the three sounds good to me

I dont care that we are losing, dont care we cant defend the 3 or allow 19 second chance points

I only care that tomorrow night we:

Beat LA , Beat LA, Beat LA!!!!

I am bringing the cowbell!!
I have a fever, and the only presription is More Cowbell !

 

[gunks]

No, just no.

Vince and Z-Bo have no value to other teams. We over paid them to be babysitters. Taking salary off the table, it's unclear whether anyone would want Z-Bo for their playoff rotation. But, why would anyone construct a trade that moves 12 million of prorated 17-18 salary for Z-Bo? And be on the hook for a season year of that contract? Nobody wants that!

Hill has played better, but right now, nobody wants him at 19 million for the 18-19 season. Nobody.

Kufos is still fairly productive and has a fair contract (some would say good, but I think he would sign for close to 8.3 if he was a free agent right now). So, that's a plus. But, the league is full of big men that most teams can't give away. The center market is depressed. While Kufos would give a contender depth and a back-up center, it's unclear he'd bee among the top 8 guys for anybody making a run at going deep in the playoffs. So, teams would take him for the right prices but certainly aren't looking to break the bank when replacement level backup centers are readily available to absorb for very little.

The Kings broke the 10 pick from the 17 draft and 7 pick from the 16 draft into several chances. Fox is their only blue chip prospect. As such, a franchise with a horrible record for developing has charted a path of developing non-blue chip prospects into an all-star, quality, starters, and high end depth. They hope to do that in a locker room that has turned toxic each of the past 3 springs.

Trying to make plan A work, while worrying about juicing and flipping the value of the vets along the way would be a bridge too far for well run and owned teams. And the Kings are neither well run nor owned.

You're probably correct, but damn, why even stick around with such a bleak outlook of the future of this franchise?!

I guess I'm optimistic about turning the dud vet signings into something for the same reason you guys are optimistic about Skal somehow dusting the poop off his game if given more minutes.

The reality is that we're probably ****** either way and just need to wait out Vivek's tenure as majority owner for another decade, or however long it takes him to get bored and move on to "save" another franchise. Because I totally agree with you in that our FO is horrible (this is why I'm all about the dumb luck of drafting a star this summer).

 

[dude12]

Throwing guys out there isn't a wonderful recipe for winning, but it is all hunky dory for a rebuild. You can say what you want about that approach, but it isn't a wrong way like you're thinking. Teams have done it before and will do it again, and any future franchise success won't be hindered because of it. No one rebuilds like we're doing. There may be vets but no one hands the keys over to them instead at the expense of the young players. There's one other team I can think of in recent memory that did that, and I'll get to them in a second.

Or if we're going to have veterans on this team, do it right. It's what the Nets are doing right now with a youngish player with some experience in Crabbe and a not-ancient 3&D and motor vet in Carroll while handing the keys over to Russell. We shelled out mountains of cash for ill fitting vets: a washed up bum who got arrested before the season and the offense runs around and is the coach's favorite player, and a PG who's never run an offense in his life so we had to shift him over to the 2 and have our rookie guards do it instead.

We're the Byron Scott Lakers; that's what this reminds me of. Their veterans were a washed up bum that they built the offense around and was the coach's favorite (sound familiar), and the Chuck Brothers Lou Williams and Swaggy P, all coached by notorious rookie hater Byron Scott. It didn't matter if they were tanking and it didn't matter if they were losing. No one would dare defend that hackjob because not only did that team fail to spare anyone's eyes, but also wasted everyone's time including their own.

Minutes avg per game
Fox 26
WCS 24
Bogs 23
Hield 23
JJ 20
Skal. 18
Mason 15
Malachi 13

Fox leads in total minutes. Joerger is playing these guys quite a bit.

 

[ESP47]

Hill has played better, but right now, nobody wants him at 19 million for the 18-19 season. Nobody.

Well we better hope he starts putting up something closer to 15 and 5 because we need to unload him for a late first rounder to take some of the sting off of losing the 2019 pick.

I don't think it's possible with the way the offense is ran but it would be nice to get something in return for him. If Joerger was smart, he would be trying to get Hill the looks that ZBo is getting since he actually has trade value.

 

[The Effort Police]

Minutes avg per game
Fox 26
WCS 24
Bogs 23
Hield 23
JJ 20
Skal. 18
Mason 15
Malachi 13

Fox leads in total minutes. Joerger is playing these guys quite a bit.

In 2015-16, Byron Scott played Clarkson the most at 32 minutes, then had Kobe, Williams, Randle, and Russell all hovering at around 28 minutes. So Joerger has a more vet heavy minutes distribution than the worst rebuilding job I can think of in recent memory. But that's neither here nor there, and the minutes aren't the main problem of Byron Scott's team.

The problem is that the Lakers that year accomplished nothing other than collecting their high draft pick, which would've happened anyway. Like this team, no coaching job in the world could've made them into something better. But this was the Kobe Farewell Tour with an outdated, unfitting offense run to him. He and the vets were the main pieces, not the complimentary pieces, and they were misfit vets with that team to boot. So what you have is essentially a wasted year that did virtually nothing for anyone except pad Kobe's all time stats. That's what is happening here.

Now, it's still early and perhaps this is all one big master plan, but I'm convinced Joerger would've played Barnes all the way if we hadn't literally booted him off the team, so I'm skeptical this is going to change.

 

[Larry David]

Well we better hope he starts putting up something closer to 15 and 5 because we need to unload him for a late first rounder to take some of the sting off of losing the 2019 pick.

I think that's:

(1) hoping for a somewhat unlikely event to occur (Hill's play);
(2) desperately hoping to take the sting out of a sunk cost (2019 pick);
(3) that actively harms the best and stated business plan (grow what's going to be here in 3 years).

I think that's very bad business and a bad idea. I think it's at least 50/50 there are front office and/or coaches that agree with you.

PS
Late first rounder typically means a contender ... and no contender has 19 million of 2018-19 cap space for George Hill ... even if he's putting up 15 and 5. A middle of the pack team might ... but they typically don't hold late 1st round picks.

 

[SacTownKid]

Minutes avg per game
Fox 26
WCS 24
Bogs 23
Hield 23
JJ 20
Skal. 18
Mason 15
Malachi 13

Fox leads in total minutes. Joerger is playing these guys quite a bit.

That right there is about ast platoon as you can get. Maybe even under for a few guys. Joerger said he's waiting for someone to stand out so he can cut the platoon. I don't think he's realizing that he's partly setting them up to fail. I said it before, per 36 Buddy had a stretch of games that were near 20 and 10 level, for a guard! If that's not standing out in this crap fest I don't know what he's expecting. A bright light to shine down from the sky and bounce of his forehead?

 

[SacTownKid]

In 2015-16, Byron Scott played Clarkson the most at 32 minutes, then had Kobe, Williams, Randle, and Russell all hovering at around 28 minutes. So Joerger has a more vet heavy minutes distribution than the worst rebuilding job I can think of in recent memory. But that's neither here nor there, and the minutes aren't the main problem of Byron Scott's team.

The problem is that the Lakers that year accomplished nothing other than collecting their high draft pick, which would've happened anyway. Like this team, no coaching job in the world could've made them into something better. But this was the Kobe Farewell Tour with an outdated, unfitting offense run to him. He and the vets were the main pieces, not the complimentary pieces, and they were misfit vets with that team to boot. So what you have is essentially a wasted year that did virtually nothing for anyone except pad Kobe's all time stats. That's what is happening here.

Now, it's still early and perhaps this is all one big master plan, but I'm convinced Joerger would've played Barnes all the way if we hadn't literally booted him off the team, so I'm skeptical this is going to change.

Exactly. The Lakers are another example of taking something easy and trying to not give all the way in and still sucking anyway. Well, the gods of BBall are talking, almost time to give all the way in.

 

[kingsboi]

In 2015-16, Byron Scott played Clarkson the most at 32 minutes, then had Kobe, Williams, Randle, and Russell all hovering at around 28 minutes. So Joerger has a more vet heavy minutes distribution than the worst rebuilding job I can think of in recent memory. But that's neither here nor there, and the minutes aren't the main problem of Byron Scott's team.

The problem is that the Lakers that year accomplished nothing other than collecting their high draft pick, which would've happened anyway. Like this team, no coaching job in the world could've made them into something better. But this was the Kobe Farewell Tour with an outdated, unfitting offense run to him. He and the vets were the main pieces, not the complimentary pieces, and they were misfit vets with that team to boot. So what you have is essentially a wasted year that did virtually nothing for anyone except pad Kobe's all time stats. That's what is happening here.

Now, it's still early and perhaps this is all one big master plan, but I'm convinced Joerger would've played Barnes all the way if we hadn't literally booted him off the team, so I'm skeptical this is going to change.

You don't really think Joerger is out there trying to make slow-bo happy, do you? If he is, it might be time for Vlade to step in and have a say, even though I don't want it coming to that. Realistically, I doubt that would happen anyway because they respect each other and I don't see Vlade stepping on Joerger's toes when it comes to playing time and rotations.

 

[dude12]

I can't wait to read the same drivel for the next 60 games lol.

 

[The Effort Police]

You don't really think Joerger is out there trying to make slow-bo happy, do you? If he is, it might be time for Vlade to step in and have a say, even though I don't want it coming to that. Realistically, I doubt that would happen anyway because they respect each other and I don't see Vlade stepping on Joerger's toes when it comes to playing time and rotations.

I do not. I think the intentions are different; Kobe's final year I feel was a way for Scott to get Kobe to pad his all time stats and send him off. Joerger I feel has his favorite players and system and preferences about the way to play basketball, and that culiminates in a lot of usage of Zbo and other vets a la Barnes last year. Both I feel can be detrimental to a rebuild. The intentions are difference, but the results are the same in that it could end up with a wasted year.

 

[The Effort Police]

I can't wait to read the same drivel for the next 60 games lol.

And do you have a rebuttal for anything? At all? No?

 

[Telemachus]

I do not. I think the intentions are different; Kobe's final year I feel was a way for Scott to get Kobe to pad his all time stats and send him off. Joerger I feel has his favorite players and system and preferences about the way to play basketball, and that culiminates in a lot of usage of Zbo and other vets a la Barnes last year. Both I feel can be detrimental to a rebuild. The intentions are difference, but the results are the same in that it could end up with a wasted year.

You make it sound like Z-Bo is playing a lot of minutes, when in reality he is averaging just over 23 minutes a game. And I don't think he would be playing that much if Skal was playing better when on the floor. I also expect his playing time will drop when Giles starts playing (or if Skal plays better).

When it comes to big men, Koufas and Z-Bo have been the only consistent players with WCS just behind them (but still playing the most). I want Skal to step his game and play more, but the truth is that much of the time he has earned his place on the bench. The frustrating part is that Z-Bo really hurts us on defense unless there is someone who likes to play in the post for him to guard.

 

[kingsboi]

You make it sound like Z-Bo is playing a lot of minutes, when in reality he is averaging just over 23 minutes a game. And I don't think he would be playing that much if Skal was playing better when on the floor. I also expect his playing time will drop when Giles starts playing (or if Skal plays better).

When it comes to big men, Koufas and Z-Bo have been the only consistent players with WCS just behind them (but still playing the most). I want Skal to step his game and play more, but the truth is that much of the time he has earned his place on the bench. The frustrating part is that Z-Bo really hurts us on defense unless there is someone who likes to play in the post for him to guard.

We don't even know if Giles will play at all this season. I know the timetable for his return has been slated for January but things can change by that time. Also, if he is cleared to play, he, like Skal are a project at the moment and his leash may not be very long so he may be sitting next to Papa in a suit or playing a bit in the G-league to get his conditioning and game up to par, which wouldn't be the worst move for this season to be honest.

 

[Telemachus]

We don't even know if Giles will play at all this season. I know the timetable for his return has been slated for January but things can change by that time. Also, if he is cleared to play, he, like Skal are a project at the moment and his leash may not be very long so he may be sitting next to Papa in a suit or playing a bit in the G-league to get his conditioning and game up to par, which wouldn't be the worst move for this season to be honest.

The only reason he wouldn't play would be an injury (which is why they are holding off till January). And even if he only played sparingly, his minutes would have to come from somewhere.

What encourages me is that everyone who has seen him in practice has been impressed. Vince Carter was wowed by a dunk that he did. Z-Bo called him a future perennial all-star. Doug Christie has said more than once that he thinks Giles will be the best player to come out of this draft. This tends to make me think he is playing in practice the way he did when people considered him the#1 player in HS. I just hope they are right.

 

[kingsboi]

I do not. I think the intentions are different; Kobe's final year I feel was a way for Scott to get Kobe to pad his all time stats and send him off. Joerger I feel has his favorite players and system and preferences about the way to play basketball, and that culiminates in a lot of usage of Zbo and other vets a la Barnes last year. Both I feel can be detrimental to a rebuild. The intentions are difference, but the results are the same in that it could end up with a wasted year.

You bring up Scott. Scott was a part of the terrible team in Cleveland and LA and prior to his hire in Cleveland, he had a team in New Orleans that won 56 games and 49 the year after. overall, his winning percentage when he coached in New Orleans was a .484% winning percentage and then in Cleveland it was .278 and in LA .232 so point being is his track record for being part of a rebuilding team isn't the same way Joerger worked his way up to coaching youth in the former league known as the D-League and developing players to fit his style of play and run his schemes. This is Joerger's first year where he is coaching a rebuilding team and he hasn't done so in his previous NBA coaching career so this is new to him too I'd imagine. Whether he can adapt and make this work moving forward is another story because we just don't know that as of now. He will be here at the very least for another two seasons IMO and if his coaching & schemes are not heading in an upward trajectory for the team, than it may be time to part ways. In the mean time though, he needs time to do his work and nothing will happen overnight, over one season or maybe even two seasons.

 

[kingsboi]

The only reason he wouldn't play would be an injury (which is why they are holding off till January). And even if he only played sparingly, his minutes would have to come from somewhere.

What encourages me is that everyone who has seen him in practice has been impressed. Vince Carter was wowed by a dunk that he did. Z-Bo called him a future perennial all-star. Doug Christie has said more than once that he thinks Giles will be the best player to come out of this draft. This tends to make me think he is playing in practice the way he did when people considered him the#1 player in HS. I just hope they are right.

Take those positive comments on Giles with a grain of salt until we can see him play in an NBA game with grown men. This isn't me trying to bash Giles, hell, I love Giles, he was my favorite draft pick from this class and I was elated when the Kings took a flier on him. I'm simply trying to point out that let's see him play ourselves before we label him anything, that's all.

 

[Telemachus]

Take those positive comments on Giles with a grain of salt until we can see him play in an NBA game with grown men. This isn't me trying to bash Giles, hell, I love Giles, he was my favorite draft pick from this class and I was elated when the Kings took a flier on him. I'm simply trying to point out that let's see him play ourselves before we label him anything, that's all.

I agree with you. I just like the fact that we are hearing positive feed back from people who have nothing to gain by giving it. If it was all coming from the coaches I would be happy but realize they aren't likely to say anything negative. If it was coming from Napear, I would assume it was hype to keep the fans interested and hopeful.

However, I've been around too long to rush to judgement or assume the best result.

 

[The Effort Police]

You make it sound like Z-Bo is playing a lot of minutes, when in reality he is averaging just over 23 minutes a game. And I don't think he would be playing that much if Skal was playing better when on the floor. I also expect his playing time will drop when Giles starts playing (or if Skal plays better).

When it comes to big men, Koufas and Z-Bo have been the only consistent players with WCS just behind them (but still playing the most). I want Skal to step his game and play more, but the truth is that much of the time he has earned his place on the bench. The frustrating part is that Z-Bo really hurts us on defense unless there is someone who likes to play in the post for him to guard.

This is true. He's not sucking up 36 minutes, but there's no denying that the offense is run around him when he is on the floor to terrible effect, especially in those games he gets thirty minutes. There's not really any change to the offensive style either when the bench comes in, so while the defense gets better, the offense is still ground to a halt.

You bring up Scott. Scott was a part of the terrible team in Cleveland and LA and prior to his hire in Cleveland, he had a team in New Orleans that won 56 games and 49 the year after. overall, his winning percentage when he coached in New Orleans was a .484% winning percentage and then in Cleveland it was .278 and in LA .232 so point being is his track record for being part of a rebuilding team isn't the same way Joerger worked his way up to coaching youth in the former league known as the D-League and developing players to fit his style of play and run his schemes. This is Joerger's first year where he is coaching a rebuilding team and he hasn't done so in his previous NBA coaching career so this is new to him too I'd imagine. Whether he can adapt and make this work moving forward is another story because we just don't know that as of now. He will be here at the very least for another two seasons IMO and if his coaching & schemes are not heading in an upward trajectory for the team, than it may be time to part ways. In the mean time though, he needs time to do his work and nothing will happen overnight, over one season or maybe even two seasons.

Fair enough. There are a couple reasons I don't want to fire Joerger. First being that we can't continue this coaching carousel, and second that if we actually happen to get there eventually he should be a fine playoff coach. If he's still doing this past the all star break I'm going to get antsy, but again the Catch 22 is the coaching carousel. Like most, I was thrilled when we got him when we were under the impression we had a DMC-filled future. Rebuilding always seemed to be a possibility and indeed came to fruition, but I always felt the idea was for him to coach a Cousins team. Had I known this was the direction we were going, I would've wanted Larranaga or Udoka instead. The best coaches for rebuilding seem to come from longtime assistants getting their first crack at the head (Brown, Atkinson). We have to see this through now though, but even in the first post-Cousins games I had my lingering concerns because I heard from Memphis fans about his penchant for playing 40 year old men.

You mentioned him developing players to fit his schemes; eventually he's going to have to change them if he wants to run with this group because these personnel don't actually fit them. It's the Karl conundrum. And whether he can adapt or not is my main question. We had a tanktastic roster down the stretch of last season, and while other teams were getting in on that, he never really went all the way in. We saw a lot of changes, but he was never really able to let go of the vets fully even down the meaningless stretch of last season. If he can adapt, he might be notoriously slow to do it.