Bogdanovic - guard or SF?

sterö

sterö

Bench
#31
#31
The Effort Police said:
Oh gee, maybe it has something to do with having a million SGs and a grand total of one rookie SF.

In all honesty, I doubt he starts though. I'm not even sure he's going to be in the rotation to start the season and I'm not convinced he's going to be the difference maker people are calling him here.
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I disagree with regards to Bogdanovic not being in the rotation at the beginning of the season. I agree with Baja, and honestly I do not see what Buddy does better than Bogdan at this point. Most important, Bogdan is a much much better ball handler, which we really really need.

It's not like Bogdan is a no name European player. He was the best player on the best European team last season. While this is not a guarantee for success in the NBA (see Juan Carlos Navarro), it will definitely be enough to make the rotation on one of the most unexperienced (and probably at this point weakest) rosters of the NBA.

But as I said, I expect him to start at SG quite early in the season and to slide over to the 3 in small ball situations. Once he gets stronger, he could play SF more consistently. He definitely has the length to play the position.
 
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Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#33
#33
Positionless basketball makes positions irrelevant. But we need to be able to characterize these players in some general way, so we (me included) use positions to talk about them. It comes down to what skills he has on offense (outside shooting, making plays off the dribble for others, offensive rebounding, breaking down the defense) and what ability he has on defense (can he cover quicker smaller guards, bigger slower guards, even bigger small forwards, his ability to rebound and get 50-50 balls?). I believe that on Joerger's decision-tree, the first question he asks of himself for any player in a lineup on any given night is: Will this player hold up on defending the player I'm matching him up against? If he thinks the player is going to get killed against a potential matchup (Skal against Cousins for example), then it's obviously unlikely he matches him up against X player on the other team. But that question is just the start. He's got to consider help defense attributes, and of course he has to consider how this player helps or hurts the overall team efficiency on offense. One reason why you see coaches "experimenting" so much with lineups, especially in the preseason, is that oftentimes it isn't readily apparent how a player is going to fit into the lineup until you see that player in several roles and against several different kind of lineups from the opposition. There is no computer formula for them to know where and how the player will fit; it's trial and error. I expect the same thing to occur with Joerger. And when he's experimenting with Bogs, Hield, Richardson, Temple, Jackson, Hill, Fox, and Mason, the number of different combinations are probably going to make your head spin.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#34
#34
Offensive skills such as shooting, ball handling, & passing have little to do with what position you play in the league. This is the point @VF21 and @Čarolija were struggling to grasp in my posts. It really all boils down to defense. What position are you best at defending? What position can you get by defending? Which positions can you defend without being abused? That's what dictates a player's position.

Bogdanovic can shoot, handle, and pass. Great! If he could guard PFs effectively, why can't he play PF while still utilizing the skills I just mentioned on offense? Ben Simmons can probably guard PFs & Cs on defense but his excellent passing skills are not going to go to waste because of it. They are going to put the ball in his hands and let him create.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#35
#35
twslam07 said:
Offensive skills such as shooting, ball handling, & passing have little to do with what position you play in the league. This is the point @VF21 and @Čarolija were struggling to grasp in my posts. It really all boils down to defense. What position are you best at defending? What position can you get by defending? Which positions can you defend without being abused? That's what dictates a player's position.

Bogdanovic can shoot, handle, and pass. Great! If he could guard PFs effectively, why can't he play PF while still utilizing the skills I just mentioned on offense? Ben Simmons can probably guard PFs & Cs on defense but his excellent passing skills are not going to go to waste because of it. They are going to put the ball in his hands and let him create.
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I must be confused. I could swear you just proved my point.

From what I've read from those who have watched Bogs regularly, they feel he would struggle guarding the SF position.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#36
#36
sterö said:
I disagree with regards to Bogdanovic not being in the rotation at the beginning of the season. I agree with Baja, and honestly I do not see what Buddy does better than Bogdan at this point. Most important, Bogdan is a much much better ball handler, which we really really need.

It's not like Bogdan is a no name European player. He was the best player on the best European team last season. While this is not a guarantee for success in the NBA (see Juan Carlos Navarro), it will definitely be enough to make the rotation on one of the most unexperienced (and probably at this point weakest) rosters of the NBA.
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Right now, Buddy is the better shooter. Bogdan is a good 3pt shooter, but he was inconsistent this year.
  • 22 games in BSL: 32.5%
  • 22 games in Euroleague: 43%
  • Total: 37.6%
For the 2017/18 season, I think we'll need a ball handler at the SG slot next to Hill. I think Buddy and Bogdan will duel it out for the starting spot. But moving forward DeAaron Fox and beyond, Fox fits much more next to an off-ball SG. Fox is ball dominant, and doesn't work well off-ball himself. I think that's why a lot of people have the Fox-Buddy pairing for the future. Buddy's playstyle fits a bit more than Bogdan's.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#37
#37
VF21 said:
I must be confused. I could swear you just proved my point.

From what I've read from those who have watched Bogs regularly, they feel he would struggle guarding the SF position.
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Who's making the argument that Bogdanovic can play SF? I'm arguing @Čarolija 's notion that ball handling & initiating the offense is a reason he is a SG vs. a SF. It's not.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#38
#38
VF21 said:
I must be confused. I could swear you just proved my point.

From what I've read from those who have watched Bogs regularly, they feel he would struggle guarding the SF position.
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I think it depends on who he's guarding. There aren't too many SF's in reality that will swallow you whole with their size. I brought it up before, in the olympics he was matched up with Durant at times on both ends and he looked OK to me. Bogdan has a good frame and it was common place for him to be switched onto bigs with his team in Turkey.

I hope they give it a fair shot to see if he can survive at SF maybe even full time for a stretch. If he can the Vlade's job just got a lot easier.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#39
#39
SacTownKid said:
I think it depends on who he's guarding. There aren't too many SF's in reality that will swallow you whole with their size. I brought it up before, in the olympics he was matched up with Durant at times on both ends and he looked OK to me. Bogdan has a good frame and it was common place for him to be switched onto bigs with his team in Turkey.

I hope they give it a fair shot to see if he can survive at SF maybe even full time for a stretch. If he can the Vlade's job just got a lot easier.
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After watching tape on him I'm wondering if his athleticism isn't best served at SF in NBA, in addition to his wingspan.

But, I also still consider Buddy a quality starting SG prospect for the next decade as well. So I don't see Bogdan unseating him there
 
A

andjel

Bench
#40
#40
twslam07 said:
Who's making the argument that Bogdanovic can play SF? I'm arguing @Čarolija 's notion that ball handling & initiating the offense is a reason he is a SG vs. a SF. It's not.
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Lol at attempts to be right no matter what.
Guy stated he was watching Bog since his early days, that he was playing guard all that time, and that he will be sg that can handle the ball and initiate offense......

You decide to ignore the important part relevant to the topic (Bog played in Europe almost exclusively guard), make up statement that "he is SG because he can handle the ball and initiate offense" that nobody stated, moved away from discussion from the specific player to the abstract waters... and all that effort so you can say you are right?

Lol
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#41
#41
twslam07 said:
Incorrect. He/She stated that Bogdanovic is a SG and added that he can handle and initiate the offense. Why in the world would someone mention he can handle and initiate the offense when making the case he is a SG vs. a SF? It has no business being in a SG vs. SF convo. LeBron says hello. Ben Simmons says hello. Draymond says hello.
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You could also read that statement as simply describing additional skills of BB that do not fit the traditional mold of SG. That statement could be read as a description rather than as a means of distinguishing SF vs. SG.

Or you could pick apart a statement of someone that appears to agree with your underlying point (BB is a SG, not SF). It's TDOS, after all, so have at it.
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#42
#42
andjel said:
Lol at attempts to be right no matter what.
Guy stated he was watching Bog since his early days, that he was playing guard all that time, and that he will be sg that can handle the ball and initiate offense......

You decide to ignore the important part relevant to the topic (Bog played in Europe almost exclusively guard), make up statement that "he is SG because he can handle the ball and initiate offense" that nobody stated, moved away from discussion from the specific player to the abstract waters... and all that effort so you can say you are right?

Lol
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Am I wrong in this instance? I don't think I am. Do you agree that handling the ball and initiating the offense means you're a SG? I don't.

What is important to you may not be important to others. Seems odd that you think you can decide what is important or not. He/She made a case for why Bogdanovic isn't a SF. His/Her case concluded with Bogdanovic being able to handle and initiate the offense. I didn't agree with the stance so I posted.

You can argue that maybe he/she just mentioned it in passing. If so fine. Seems odd that you would throw that comment into the mix when making a case for why Bogdanovic is not a SF. It's like saying "it's not a cat it's a dog and he's playful & eats a lot." The last part doesn't belong in proving if it's a cat or dog so I took it as part of his/her argument for why Bogdanovic is a SG vs. SF.
 
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twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#43
#43
LPKingsFan said:
You could also read that statement as simply describing additional skills of BB that do not fit the traditional mold of SG. That statement could be read as a description rather than as a means of distinguishing SF vs. SG.

Or you could pick apart a statement of someone that appears to agree with your underlying point (BB is a SG, not SF). It's TDOS, after all, so have at it.
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And that very well might have been his/her intent. But like I mentioned above (cat/dog analogy), I didn't take it that way. Being able to handle & initiate the offense shouldn't be part of the conversation when talking about what position Bogdanovic can play and that's what this thread is about.
 
Gary

Gary

All-Star
#44
#44
Carter starts at SF
Buddy starts at SF

Bogdan plays backup for both SG and SF, with most of his time backing up Carter since Carter will be capped at about 20mins. Jackson doesn't have the experience that Bogdan has so Jackson will be the odd man out most likely.
 
RichieInRocklin

RichieInRocklin

G-League
#46
#46
Between Bogdan, Carter & Richardson, everyone is forgetting about Justin Jackson. By midyear, IMHO I forecast Justin will be starting or at least playing 20-25 minutes a game. He needs to develop some strength and that's about all. He'll definately be in the mix at SF.
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#47
#47
RichieInRocklin said:
Between Bogdan, Carter & Richardson, everyone is forgetting about Justin Jackson. By midyear, IMHO I forecast Justin will be starting or at least playing 20-25 minutes a game. He needs to develop some strength and that's about all. He'll definately be in the mix at SF.
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When we signed VC Justin reached out immediately saying he's ready to learn. Always a good sign. He seems like a sharp guy and I imagine he will surprise a few folks.
 
K

King in England

G-League
#48
#48
Until we make a roster change, I expect this will be a recurring theme on this site. We don't have an ideal answer for the SF position and that's bound to lead to differences of opinion.

I rate Bogdan highly and consider him our best swingman on the roster currently. Therefore he's starting on my depth chart, whether that be at SG (preferred) or SF.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#49
#49
I feel Chavano Rainier is best used off the bench so I hope Bogdanovic is starter material. BTW I agree with the idea of you play whatever position you can guard.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#50
#50
The issue isn't how good of a ball handler, passer or scorer Bogdonovic is. If offense was the requirement for winning, you would just throw your best 5 scorers on the court. But that doesn't work.

Positionless basketball doesn't mean that you can put anyone on the court at any position. It means that you want versatile players and you don't limit a player based on his measurements. If you have a 6'10 guy who can handle the ball, you let him handle it.

The issue arises on defense. Can your SF guard LBJ, Paul George, Leonard, Durant? That, I'm not sure Bogdonovic can do.
 
P

pshn80

Starter
#51
#51
On our roster now we have only ones player who fits SF mold and IMHO it is Jackson.

Richardson, Bogdanovic, and Temple are SGs by experience and are not tall enough to be a long term answer at SF. Carter has had the experience and success at SF but is a short minute man at this point in his career. Despite this one or all of these players will be used at SF this year and maybe even the stater.

In answer to the OP's original question Bogdanovic is a SG.
 
OptimusRhyme

OptimusRhyme

Jive Turkey
#52
#52
I meen.. If Kyle Korver can spend time at SF on winning teams (ATL).. then I'm pretty sure Bogdon can succeed there in spurts aswell.

With that being said, I feel like Bogdon will be the starting shooting guard in time. Buddy is our Crawford.
 
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Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#53
#53
Livinthedream said:
The issue arises on defense. Can your SF guard LBJ, Paul George, Leonard, Durant? That, I'm not sure Bogdonovic can do.
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This is what is always brought up, but you don't play against these guys every night. Not to mention that all of them put in plenty of minutes at PF last year. I know that Bogdanovic can play SG on offense (I think he will be our starter), but will he be better off guarding quicker SGs or bigger SFs?
 
DesertFox

DesertFox

Starter
#54
#54
Telemachus said:
This is what is always brought up, but you don't play against these guys every night. Not to mention that all of them put in plenty of minutes at PF last year. I know that Bogdanovic can play SG on offense (I think he will be our starter), but will he be better off guarding quicker SGs or bigger SFs?
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Exactly. No SF can guard those guys. I am more concerned with Bog getting beat off the dribble than getting posted up by some hypothetical modern day Adrian dantley.
Bog looks like a shooting guard, and matches the description embeded in our heads for the last 20 years. But in todays game he can and should play a lot at the 3. Its just another wing position.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#55
#55
DesertFox said:
Exactly. No SF can guard those guys. I am more concerned with Bog getting beat off the dribble than getting posted up by some hypothetical modern day Adrian dantley.
Bog looks like a shooting guard, and matches the description embeded in our heads for the last 20 years. But in todays game he can and should play a lot at the 3. Its just another wing position.
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I'm concerned with him beating people off the dribble at SG too, from what little I've seen. Skilled player and I'm looking forward to him helping out the team, but I guess we will see come October how it shakes out and where he is best suited
 
gunks

gunks

Hall of Famer
#56
#56
Might as well play Bogs at the 3, since he's not going to be able to guard 2s either.

We're going to go small, drop a lot of points on teams, and still get lit up and lose most games by double digits. People will blame Joerger and talk about how the team plays just like it did under Karl.

But really it's a roster issue, as always. We have two proven defenders on the team, Temple and KK, and a bunch of kids and too many SGs.

Next year is going to be the first full season of rebuild number. .....9? I'm less worried about playing guys outta position and more worried about guys getting minutes. We're not winning much more than 30 games (if that) next year either way.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#57
#57
Telemachus said:
This is what is always brought up, but you don't play against these guys every night. Not to mention that all of them put in plenty of minutes at PF last year. I know that Bogdanovic can play SG on offense (I think he will be our starter), but will he be better off guarding quicker SGs or bigger SFs?
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I stopped there with the obvious. But the majority of the SF's in the league are tall and long or extremely strong and powerful. Gallinari, Antetokounmpo are tall. Jae Crowder is thick and powerful for example. Sure, you can play Bogdanovic there sporadically, just like PG13 and Rudy Gay can play the PF for brief periods. But you don't want to permanently stick a guy out of position. He'll get exploited.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#58
#58
RichieInRocklin said:
Between Bogdan, Carter & Richardson, everyone is forgetting about Justin Jackson. By midyear, IMHO I forecast Justin will be starting or at least playing 20-25 minutes a game. He needs to develop some strength and that's about all. He'll definately be in the mix at SF.
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I honestly believe that if not by mid-season then towards the end of the season, Malachi will be the one riding pine the most. Malachi has a year over Jackson so he may play more than him out of the gate but Jackson just does much more than Malachi can do IMO and Joerger will reward him when the time is right. The Kings hopefully by the trade deadline will look to move one or two of the gluts of guards this team has.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#59
#59
gunks said:
Might as well play Bogs at the 3, since he's not going to be able to guard 2s either.

We're going to go small, drop a lot of points on teams, and still get lit up and lose most games by double digits. People will blame Joerger and talk about how the team plays just like it did under Karl.

But really it's a roster issue, as always. We have two proven defenders on the team, Temple and KK, and a bunch of kids and too many SGs.

Next year is going to be the first full season of rebuild number. .....9? I'm less worried about playing guys outta position and more worried about guys getting minutes. We're not winning much more than 30 games (if that) next year either way.
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Players getting minutes out of their best position can be more counter productive to their development when its all said and done. Bogdan will spend some spot minutes at SF but he is not going to be a starter there or play more minutes there.

It's not a popular opinion around here but there is a fair chance that Bogdan will start at SG and Buddy comes off the bench.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#60
#60
I'm sure that when many teams go to their reserve SF's or to the3 guard lineups we will see our own version or versions of that small ball lineup. Instead of focusing on the starting SFs in the league, I'd focus on the other 18-24 minutes.
 
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