Willie Cauley-Stein
- Thread starter King Baller
- Start date
I mean, am I right?
Talking about ceiling.
And for the first time we seem to have a coach that is showing an ability to develop youth.
Talk me down.
I'm seeing Papa as a minimum, 15/10 guy. And Skal, as a minimum 15-20 pt scorer, once these guys really learn the league and have a stable team around them.
Just don't trade the vets!
And that's what I see as a floor for those two. I see either one or both with the potential to really figure it out and become borerline all stars.
Talking about ceiling.
And for the first time we seem to have a coach that is showing an ability to develop youth.
Talk me down.
I'm seeing Papa as a minimum, 15/10 guy. And Skal, as a minimum 15-20 pt scorer, once these guys really learn the league and have a stable team around them.
Just don't trade the vets!
And that's what I see as a floor for those two. I see either one or both with the potential to really figure it out and become borerline all stars.
I just continue to see a WCS who shies away from contact. And I'm really starting to wonder if his apparent interest in offense instead of defense is because he doesn't believe his role in the NBA going forward is as a fine defender (including rebounding), which does require a willingness to be bumped and bruised. If you don't having any interest in banging with the big guys, then it makes sense to focus on your offensive game so you can stay in the league doing some other valuable thing. I love the passing that he does, but Jimmer was a pretty good passer also, and it didn't do him much good in the end.
Part of the issue I have with Willie is that he's not the player I thought he'd be. In some ways that's bad and in some ways that's good.
What I envisioned was an ideal front court partner for DeMarcus Cousins. The long 7 footer with unbelievable footspeed and lateral quickness who would shore up the pick and roll weakness that Boogie creates, add weakside rim protection, defend stretch fours and offensively get his points in transition, off dump offs and on 15-18 foot open jumpers when Boogie was double teamed.
Part of it was being a rookie, but Cauley-Stein hasn't been good against stretch fours. He's also not been the P&R destroyer I'd hoped for. Part of this is the habit (which he's improved but still struggles with) of extending the ball handler too far out and then thinking he's quick enough to get back to the roll or pop man. In college he was. In the NBA too often he isn't.
I knew his rebounding would be an issue. I talked myself into believing it wasn't as bad as the analytics showed at Kentucky because (a) he was playing alongside other bigs that gobbled up boards and (b) he was often switched onto a perimter player, pulling him from the hoop. Both are true, but it's also true that he's not a naturally aggressive or instinctual rebounder.
On the other hand, he's shown a fluidity and potential on offense that I didn't know he had. That crossover into a spin move against Jokic had me just shaking my head. His form on his jumper is looking better and hopefully gets consistent but it's just his aggressiveness at times on offense since the Cousins trade that surprises me.
I never thought WCS had star potential. I thought he could be an elite level defender like DeAndre Jordan but he's got a long way to go for that to be a possibility. His rebounding is still anemic and he often appears to shy away from contact. On the other hand, he's had some games where you wonder if he might be as good (or possibly better?) on the offensive end than the defensive end.
Who knows at this point? Lots of young guys are a bit of mystery box but rarely a guy who played three years of NCAA ball at a major university and who is in his second year of the NBA, but Willie's role in the NBA still hasn't been carved out. If he puts it all together he could be incredibly valuable. If he continues to be inconsistent he could find himself as a career reserve or worse.
Hell, this season he was out of the rotation and starting to look like a bust after a season in which I felt it was Karl that was holding him back. Right now he seems to be arrow up, and for the time being that's enough.
What I envisioned was an ideal front court partner for DeMarcus Cousins. The long 7 footer with unbelievable footspeed and lateral quickness who would shore up the pick and roll weakness that Boogie creates, add weakside rim protection, defend stretch fours and offensively get his points in transition, off dump offs and on 15-18 foot open jumpers when Boogie was double teamed.
Part of it was being a rookie, but Cauley-Stein hasn't been good against stretch fours. He's also not been the P&R destroyer I'd hoped for. Part of this is the habit (which he's improved but still struggles with) of extending the ball handler too far out and then thinking he's quick enough to get back to the roll or pop man. In college he was. In the NBA too often he isn't.
I knew his rebounding would be an issue. I talked myself into believing it wasn't as bad as the analytics showed at Kentucky because (a) he was playing alongside other bigs that gobbled up boards and (b) he was often switched onto a perimter player, pulling him from the hoop. Both are true, but it's also true that he's not a naturally aggressive or instinctual rebounder.
On the other hand, he's shown a fluidity and potential on offense that I didn't know he had. That crossover into a spin move against Jokic had me just shaking my head. His form on his jumper is looking better and hopefully gets consistent but it's just his aggressiveness at times on offense since the Cousins trade that surprises me.
I never thought WCS had star potential. I thought he could be an elite level defender like DeAndre Jordan but he's got a long way to go for that to be a possibility. His rebounding is still anemic and he often appears to shy away from contact. On the other hand, he's had some games where you wonder if he might be as good (or possibly better?) on the offensive end than the defensive end.
Who knows at this point? Lots of young guys are a bit of mystery box but rarely a guy who played three years of NCAA ball at a major university and who is in his second year of the NBA, but Willie's role in the NBA still hasn't been carved out. If he puts it all together he could be incredibly valuable. If he continues to be inconsistent he could find himself as a career reserve or worse.
Hell, this season he was out of the rotation and starting to look like a bust after a season in which I felt it was Karl that was holding him back. Right now he seems to be arrow up, and for the time being that's enough.
If the Kings intend to keep Trill for the long term, if he isn't going to be the rebounder we all hope for, then he needs to contribute in other aspects of the game whether it's knocking down perimeter jump shots or weakside shotblocking, improve pick and roll defense. He can still have use on this team and it's too early to label him anything at this point. He is nearing the end of his second season and we see glimpses of what he can do and what he should do. How Joerger and staff continue to work on him in the offseason and going into training camp in the fall will be telling.
I agree with absolutely everything you said. I was a huge WCS during the draft because in time, I saw him as just about a perfect complement to Boogie. I never expected him to be a stretch 4 but I always felt he could develop a jumper our to 18 feet and he was going to do what Boogie couldn't (guard stretch 4s, provide weak side shot blocking and generally anchor that defense). His rebounding was ALWAYS questionable but if you have Boogie averaging 12 a game and you are getting 6-8 from your SF, its something that can be covered. That is why I wasn't particularly fussed that Kings could be overlooking more talented players at that pick because I felt that for the first time in half a decade, there was a chance to get that player next to Boogie. It was also positive that he could come in and contribute straight away.
Fast forward 18 months or so and all those weaknesses and question marks that were there are still very much there except that this time around, you don't have a bruising Cousins banging down low and sucking all the boards and covering up the weaknesses that Willie has. Nor do you have a Gay pulling down 6-8 rebounds a game. So the question if you are the Kings needs to be, can you move forward with Willie as your starting C given his inability to average 10 rebounds per game? Can you do it given that he is not even the type of shot blocker that you thought he would be next to Cousins? Can you be a winning team if your big guys don't rebound consistently well? Skal is good on the offensive glass and a work in progress on the defensive glass. Some of that is due to his inability to box out bigger opponents due to lack of strength. Some of it is positioning.
Willie is not a good rebounder, especially on the defensive end. Luckily, Papagiannis looks to be a good rebounder in limited sample size. Can he be the big body rebounder who protects the paint, alters shots and mixes in the type of offense people hoped Willie would be happy with providing.
Either way, I think that Kings have next season to determine if they can move forward with Willie or if it is time to cash in that chip for a piece that can be part of the team going forward. When I see 4-5 rebounds in 30-35 minutes of playing time my blood boils. That is not the production that you can depend on from your big man. Every now and then he will have a game with 10-12 rebounds and you ask the question why can't he do it more consistently.
Fast forward 18 months or so and all those weaknesses and question marks that were there are still very much there except that this time around, you don't have a bruising Cousins banging down low and sucking all the boards and covering up the weaknesses that Willie has. Nor do you have a Gay pulling down 6-8 rebounds a game. So the question if you are the Kings needs to be, can you move forward with Willie as your starting C given his inability to average 10 rebounds per game? Can you do it given that he is not even the type of shot blocker that you thought he would be next to Cousins? Can you be a winning team if your big guys don't rebound consistently well? Skal is good on the offensive glass and a work in progress on the defensive glass. Some of that is due to his inability to box out bigger opponents due to lack of strength. Some of it is positioning.
Willie is not a good rebounder, especially on the defensive end. Luckily, Papagiannis looks to be a good rebounder in limited sample size. Can he be the big body rebounder who protects the paint, alters shots and mixes in the type of offense people hoped Willie would be happy with providing.
Either way, I think that Kings have next season to determine if they can move forward with Willie or if it is time to cash in that chip for a piece that can be part of the team going forward. When I see 4-5 rebounds in 30-35 minutes of playing time my blood boils. That is not the production that you can depend on from your big man. Every now and then he will have a game with 10-12 rebounds and you ask the question why can't he do it more consistently.
It's been a very nice surprise to see Skal being so active on the boards. And it's a fortunate development that all of the top SFs on this draft are strong rebounders. Jackson and Tatum but especially Isaac and Bridges who seem most likely to be available when the Kings pick.
But none of that changes the fact that Willie needs to rebound better. If he can't it limits how long he can be on the floor. There have been some encouraging glimpses at times but he has to make rebounding a focus and improve in that area to be a key part of the Kings (or any other team for that matter) going forward.
But none of that changes the fact that Willie needs to rebound better. If he can't it limits how long he can be on the floor. There have been some encouraging glimpses at times but he has to make rebounding a focus and improve in that area to be a key part of the Kings (or any other team for that matter) going forward.
