The one and only Isaiah Thomas thread (merged)

twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#1
#1
Tetsujin said:
I guess Demarcus doesn't suck. View attachment 6078
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And he's number 2 on that list if it's per36.

Funny thing is that I. Thomas is right behind him at #3 in points per 36 min. Not to mention he's doing it at a great efficiency (59% TS%). Unfortunately, his defensive shortcomings still trouble him and limit his ability to impact the game at a high level.

Despite being 3rd in points per minute, his RPM is only at 0.9 this year (which is 14th among PGs) and he has a -3.0 On/Off. We even saw this last year when was 23rd in RAPM among PGs and 16th in RPM among PGs.

This data really supports many fans here at KF that were wanting to see Thomas take on a super sixth man role with us. Give him more minutes against 2nd units, and you'll see that offensive efficiency go up all while limiting his defensive shortcomings by assigning him to guard other team's backups. Unfortunately, I don't think Thomas' ego would ever let him do that for the better of the team.

EDIT: Sorry, I know this about Cousins. Feel free to move this in fear of it derailing the thread.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#5
#5
twslam07 said:
This data really supports many fans here at KF that were wanting to see Thomas take on a super sixth man role with us. Give him more minutes against 2nd units, and you'll see that offensive efficiency go up all while limiting his defensive shortcomings by assigning him to guard other team's backups. Unfortunately, I don't think Thomas' ego would ever let him do that for the better of the team.
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Yeah, I was really bummed when he refused to take that role here and move on to PHX. He could arguably be one of the very best offensive players off the bench in the NBA.

peacelate said:
IT just scored 52 points on 26 shots against the Heat. Whether or not the duo would have worked, the Kings were stupid to simply let this guy walk for nothing. Should have matched the offer and if it didn't work out, you trade him like Phoenix did and get something in return.
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206Fan said:
I miss Isaiah Thomas. **** Pete D. Dumbass let IT go for absolutely 0. ZERRRO.

He's now a top 10 PG in the NBA. I don't care about his height. The guy is exactly what Boogie needs.
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I've not seen many players under 6 feet that can score like this cat can. He's amazing and a lot of fun to watch. Tonight's game reminded me of some of the hot streaks he used to get on with the Kings. A game against the LeBron led Heat immediately comes to mind.
 
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ESP47

All-Star
#6
#6
Looks like Isaiah was right to have that ego.

For a while there I was one of just a couple guys on here that backed Isaiah and I got a lot of flack for it but eventually I turned on him as well and agreed that he needed to either go to the bench or get traded. Boy were we wrong on both counts there.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#7
#7
ESP47 said:
Boy were we wrong on both counts there.
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I don't think so. To twslam07's point, he's still very much a liability on the defensive side of the ball and his overall efficiency would be better against the opponents 2nd unit. We always knew he could score. That was never an issue.
 
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ESP47

All-Star
#8
#8
KingsFanSince85 said:
I don't think so. To twslam07's point, he's still very much a liability on the defensive side of the ball and his overall efficiency would be better against the opponents 2nd unit. We always knew he could score. That was never an issue.
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The Celtics immediately got better upon his arrival. He's 5th in scoring with good efficiency. His only real shortcoming is defense.

You don't take the 5th leading scorer in the league and put him on the bench. You surround him with guys who can defend (which the Celtics have done) and make the playoffs every year (which the Celtics have done).

We were flat out wrong about Isaiah Thomas whether anyone wants to admit it or not.
 
N

New Era

Starter
#9
#9
Makes me sick anytime I see him play nowadays. As previously mentioned, he'd be a perfect fit with DMC. He can shoot, create, pass, and handle the ball.
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#10
#10
New Era said:
Makes me sick anytime I see him play nowadays. As previously mentioned, he'd be a perfect fit with DMC. He can shoot, create, pass, and handle the ball.
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As good as IT is as a player, but he is not a perfect fit next to DMC. Right now teams are putting DMC in as many pick&rolls situations as possible on D. An IT + DMC tandem would cause an absolute field day for opposing guards, because both have their weaknesses on the defensive end, when put into a well executed pick&roll. On top of that IT still has the tendency to go full hero ball mode - not a problem with the Celtics, where everyone makes a living as a spot up shooter, but not the best thing to do when paired with DMC.
I love watching IT, but with DMC I would still prefer a PG, who is a bit more feisty on D and provides more physicality and size. Elfrid Payton or Marcus Smart with a jumpshot would be a great fit. Or if we want to pick someone out of the Top5-10 category (where I would put IT) I would think John Wall might give you the best overall package of playmaking, defense and fit with DMC, although his jumpshot might cause problems from time to time. Other guys I would prefer over IT not necessarily in the Top 5-10 category would be Conley, Bledsoe, Dennis Schröder (ok I'm biased...;)) and George Hill.
 
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biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#11
#11
KingsFanGER said:
As good as IT is as a player, but he is not a perfect fit next to DMC. Right now teams are putting DMC in as many pick&rolls situations as possible on D. An IT + DMC tandem would cause an absolute field day for opposing guards, because both have their weaknesses on the defensive end, when put into a well executed pick&roll. On top of that IT still has the tendency to go full hero ball mode - not a problem with the Celtics, where everyone makes a living as a spot up shooter, but not the best thing to do when paired with DMC.
I love watching IT, but with DMC I would still prefer a PG, who is a bit more feisty on D and provides more physicality and size. Elfrid Payton or Marcus Smart with a jumpshot would be a great fit. Or if we want to pick someone out of the Top5-10 category (where I would put IT) I would think John Wall might give you the best overall package of playmaking, defense and fit with DMC, although his jumpshot might cause problems from time to time. Other guys I would prefer over IT not necessarily in the Top 5-10 category would be Conley, Bledsoe, Dennis Schröder (ok I'm biased...;)) and George Hill.
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Agree with you. I would have loved to get Hill last year. But Im still not giving up the hope to get Bledsoe :p
 
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peacelate

Bench
#12
#12
KingsFanGER said:
As good as IT is as a player, but he is not a perfect fit next to DMC. Right now teams are putting DMC in as many pick&rolls situations as possible on D. An IT + DMC tandem would cause an absolute field day for opposing guards, because both have their weaknesses on the defensive end, when put into a well executed pick&roll. On top of that IT still has the tendency to go full hero ball mode - not a problem with the Celtics, where everyone makes a living as a spot up shooter, but not the best thing to do when paired with DMC.
I love watching IT, but with DMC I would still prefer a PG, who is a bit more feisty on D and provides more physicality and size. Elfrid Payton or Marcus Smart with a jumpshot would be a great fit. Or if we want to pick someone out of the Top5-10 category (where I would put IT) I would think John Wall might give you the best overall package of playmaking, defense and fit with DMC, although his jumpshot might cause problems from time to time. Other guys I would prefer over IT not necessarily in the Top 5-10 category would be Conley, Bledsoe, Dennis Schröder (ok I'm biased...;)) and George Hill.
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Saying IT was a bad fit deflects the attention away from the real problem that has plagued this organization for a decade. The Kings do not have talent and do not attract high-level free agents. Whether or not IT would have been a bad fit is debatable, but not re-signing talent when you have the chance is a blunder that cannot be forgiven. When you have toiled in mediocrity for a decade and produced 1 AS player, you obtain talent and then worry about fit later.
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#13
#13
It was the right move, but it was the wrong move.
Ultimately, it was still the right move.
 
KingsFanSince85

KingsFanSince85

All-Star
#14
#14
ESP47 said:
The Celtics immediately got better upon his arrival.
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And the Suns didn't. Can't just point to the good example.

ESP47 said:
You don't take the 5th leading scorer in the league and put him on the bench.
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You do if it makes your team better. Perhaps the Celtics are better with him as a starter based upon the makeup of their team. But that wouldn't necessarily the case with all teams. At the time he was with the Kings, he looked like a better fit off the bench.

There are numerous examples over the years of players as talented offensively as Isaiah Thomas that accepted roles off the bench to the betterment of their respective team. Claiming that you don't do that isn't necessarily correct. Every situation is different.
 
KingsFanGER

KingsFanGER

Starter
#15
#15
peacelate said:
Saying IT was a bad fit deflects the attention away from the real problem that has plagued this organization for a decade. The Kings do not have talent and do not attract high-level free agents. Whether or not IT would have been a bad fit is debatable, but not re-signing talent when you have the chance is a blunder that cannot be forgiven. When you have toiled in mediocrity for a decade and produced 1 AS player, you obtain talent and then worry about fit later.
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I agree, even though I'm convinced that fit trumps talent until a certain point. But I didn't say IT was a bad fit, but only, that he wasn't the perfect fit next to DMC. ;)
Yes in hindsight it was a mistake to let IT walk for nothing. He was already scoring 20 ppg and when you take into account, that it was no suprise, that there would be another big cap raise in the future, signing him to a reasonable contract at that time and to what is now a cheap deal would have been a no brainer. PDA made a mistake and most of the KingsFans.com fanbase, including myself, were wrong.
But most of the complaints about IT were justified in the past and are still justified now.
Statistics are mostly a reflection of the role a player has in a system and the amount of trust a coach puts in a certain player. So just because IT is producing with the Celtics and under coach Stevens, doesn't mean he would be producing at the same level in SAC. The Celtics have assembled a roster, which is able to cover for IT's shortcomings on D. They have decent rim protection and extraordinary wing defense. Combine that with Stevens ability to get IT to hustle on D even though his size is still a somewhat limiting factor and you have a situation, that is a perfect fit for a player like him.
In SAC the overall situation would be entirely different. Here IT would still be a player on an overall defensively challenged roster. On offense we would always find a way to sort things out between IT and DMC, especially when you take the growth of DMC over the past few seasons into account and notice he isn't the same player he was, when IT was still with the Kings. But the defensive side of the ball would be very problematic.

In the end letting IT walk is still not the biggest mistake this franchise made over the years. Our complete inability to adjust to todays NBA and to finally assemble a roster of plus defenders around DMC is what hurts us most. Lawson and DC are not on IT's level offensively, but they are good enough with a center like DMC to at least make the playoffs as long as the rest of the roster is able to carry their weight defensively, on the boards and from 3.
But not only did we let the best offensive guard we had walk for nothing, we also didn't manage to sign anything close to a upper echolon wing defender outside of Garret Temple, we assembled a roster, which is challenged athletically and not able to keep up in terms of speed, positional versatility or in terms of rebounding ability of wings and guards and of course we still aren't a good 3point shooting team, still playing DMC alongside a second big with zero range for some minutes and still incorporating a number 2 option, that is best from mid range and in ISO situations.

A team with IT+DMC and a well fitting supporting cast would maybe be strong enough to get to the second round, although I have my doubts about that, because of the defensive issues I mentioned.
But a team with DMC and a well fitting supporting cast should still be enough to make the playoffs.
So for me the inability to sign the supporting cast weighs heavier, than the mistake to let IT walk and is a more obvious sign of the missmanagement of this franchise.
 
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ESP47

All-Star
#16
#16
KingsFanSince85 said:
And the Suns didn't. Can't just point to the good example.



You do if it makes your team better. Perhaps the Celtics are better with him as a starter based upon the makeup of their team. But that wouldn't necessarily the case with all teams. At the time he was with the Kings, he looked like a better fit off the bench.

There are numerous examples over the years of players as talented offensively as Isaiah Thomas that accepted roles off the bench to the betterment of their respective team. Claiming that you don't do that isn't necessarily correct. Every situation is different.
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The Suns also made him come off the bench. Celtics started him and gave him free reign to score and you see what has happened.

A smart GM builds the team around their best players. They don't sacrifice the talent of their best players to accommodate a bunch of hacks like we've had for years. I just can't think of many top 5 scorers in the NBA that have taken a seat on the bench and it would be even more ridiculous to happen on a team that hasn't made the playoffs in years. I can see a player making that sacrifice on the Warriors or Cavs but not on the basement dwelling Kings.
 
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ppine

Starter
#18
#18
Isaiah Thomas scored 42 points and had 8 assists this week.
He is now in the conversion for MVP of the league.
Not bad for the last player taken in the draft who stands 5'7".
UW Huskies
 
twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
#21
#21
ppine said:
Isaiah Thomas scored 42 points and had 8 assists this week.
He is now in the conversion for MVP of the league.
Not bad for the last player taken in the draft who stands 5'7".
UW Huskies
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What???

The guy was measured at 5'8.75" without shoes & 5'10.25" with shoes. Where are you getting 5'7" from?? o_O
 
Big Cuz 15

Big Cuz 15

All-Star
#22
#22
steelevt said:
yeah but everybody knows that alex oriakhi + trade exception >>> MVP candidate that can score 40+ pt and 8 assists. oh and by everybody, i mean one idiot that was hired by the kings that some/few knew wasnt a good hire. oh well
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35 steps ahead of the competition. don't forget he hires smarter ppl than him and he has a computer that will spit out data that will give him a distinct advantage in this new 3.0 nba.
 
kingjatt

kingjatt

Starter
#25
#25
Not sure if he would get the usage around here but a great talent we let walk for nothing. On top of that we shouldnt have let Tyreke walk either, granted he has been injured but when he plays he produces. what was his 11 million saved spent on anyways? Landry got part of it?

Watching that game on the same night as the sixers loss hurt alot. Everytime the Pistons made a run IT hit them with a dagger. He was the entire offense in the fourth it was basically a high pick for IT and he decided what was going to happen.

We have already been set back a decade plus hopefully the more recent moves don't make it another decade+.
 
ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#26
#26
For IT to excel like he has, he needed a team to just hand him the keys to the team, which Boston did and he is a Beast.

If he was on the Kings, with DMC here, he would have done well, but he wouldn't be Beast Mode, like he is now.

And don't forget Phoenix had him and traded him away, but at least they got a 1st round pick for him. Phoenix was not going to hand him the keys to their team either.

It still hurts to lose him for nothing, PDA was a freaking moron.
 
Big Cuz 15

Big Cuz 15

All-Star
#28
#28
kingjatt said:
Not sure if he would get the usage around here but a great talent we let walk for nothing. On top of that we shouldnt have let Tyreke walk either, granted he has been injured but when he plays he produces. what was his 11 million saved spent on anyways? Landry got part of it?

Watching that game on the same night as the sixers loss hurt alot. Everytime the Pistons made a run IT hit them with a dagger. He was the entire offense in the fourth it was basically a high pick for IT and he decided what was going to happen.

We have already been set back a decade plus hopefully the more recent moves don't make it another decade+.
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i was wondering if they were gonna cash in on the it chip. Nope! 2nd rd pick and trade exception. They were freaking idiots for letting reke leave for nothing. Hopefully someone backhanded some sense into the v.
 
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