Do Rockets need Rudy?

2

206Fan

All-Star
#1
#1
Rudy Gay's stock just climbed. Houston is in big trouble. Howard will be out, and Harden is the only above average player they have on their team. That series was brutal.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rockets or Pacers tried going after Gay. It's obvious that both teams desperately lack a good 2nd option. The first round has been underwhelming.
 
jalfa

jalfa

Starter
#2
#2
206Fan said:
Rudy Gay's stock just climbed. Houston is in big trouble. Howard will be out, and Harden is the only above average player they have on their team. That series was brutal.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rockets or Pacers tried going after Gay. It's obvious that both teams desperately lack a good 2nd option. The first round has been underwhelming.
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we could use one of those, too, tbh.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#3
#3
206Fan said:
Rudy Gay's stock just climbed. Houston is in big trouble. Howard will be out, and Harden is the only above average player they have on their team. That series was brutal.

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rockets or Pacers tried going after Gay. It's obvious that both teams desperately lack a good 2nd option. The first round has been underwhelming.
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What the hell do the Rockets have that we want, that they would actually give up to get Rudy Gay?
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#7
#7
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
And why are the Rockets giving up Ariza and Beverly to get Rudy Gay?
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Gay>>>Ariza. To be honest, I don't even know what I'd want from them. Ariza has declined and he's no better than Omri. If we did do a deal, it would probably include TJones or D-Mo. Both are RFAs, and the Rockets will probably match any offers.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#9
#9
I've said this before, and remain wholly unconvinced that Morey--who, to the extreme, wants his offense to be shots at the rim and 3s only--would spend good assets to acquire Rudy Gay.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#11
#11
LPKingsFan said:
I've said this before, and remain wholly unconvinced that Morey--who, to the extreme, wants his offense to be shots at the rim and 3s only--would spend good assets to acquire Rudy Gay.
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Yeah, I feel similarly. Unfortunately it's the same thing with the Hawks who I proposed a three way deal that gets them Gay, the Rockets Teague and the Kings Ariza & Sefalosha.

The Pelicans didn't want him at the deadline so I doubt it, but what about a S&T for Anderson since NO thinks they'll lose him anyway? Sure, it's giving away Rudy when the Kings have the capriom to sign Anderson outright but then the Kings get an extra $13 million in free agency for whatever that's worth these days.

I don't think Rudy/Boogie works at all and I think Rudy/Boogie/Rondo is even worse so I believe the team should trade Gay this offseason. But I'm struggling to think of the right deal.

Maybe for a lesser player and a draft pick?
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#12
#12
funkykingston said:
Yeah, I feel similarly. Unfortunately it's the same thing with the Hawks who I proposed a three way deal that gets them Gay, the Rockets Teague and the Kings Ariza & Sefalosha.

The Pelicans didn't want him at the deadline so I doubt it, but what about a S&T for Anderson since NO thinks they'll lose him anyway? Sure, it's giving away Rudy when the Kings have the capriom to sign Anderson outright but then the Kings get an extra $13 million in free agency for whatever that's worth these days.

I don't think Rudy/Boogie works at all and I think Rudy/Boogie/Rondo is even worse so I believe the team should trade Gay this offseason. But I'm struggling to think of the right deal.

Maybe for a lesser player and a draft pick?
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There have been rumblings about the Bulls being interested. They have some good shooting role players, and the presence of our pick makes some sort of bargain possible.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#13
#13
LPKingsFan said:
There have been rumblings about the Bulls being interested. They have some good shooting role players, and the presence of our pick makes some sort of bargain possible.
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If you like Mirotic as a stretch 4 then a trade for him and the Bulls #14 pick would fill a hole, give a chance at drafting another role player and save the Kings $5.5 million.

The Bulls aren't trading Butler for Gay. Not even Gay, McLemore & the Kings pick (unless the Kings win in the lottery and get a #2-#4 pick) They aren't trading Rose and I wouldn't want to gamble on him anyway. And I think they are really high on Portis. After that you're looking at Gibson (who seems to be in decline), Dunleavy (nope), McDermott (not a bad role player but not worth trading for) and so on.

At this point I'd deal Rudy straight up for a lottery pick and (if the Kings are adamant about keeping Rond0) use the cash savings to sign Rondo AND Ryan Anderson, see if Atlanta wants McLemore for Sefalosha and then draft a couple role players (one of them a SG) and roll into the season with

Rondo/Collison/Curry (?)
Sefalosha/Belinelli/rookie?
Casspi/Butler/rookie?
Cauley-Stein/Anderson/Acy (?)
Cousins/Koufos/rookie?

At least one of those rookie spots would be a cheap free agent signing (probably center - maybe Moreland?) but then you've got a team that let's Rondo run the show and surrounds he and Cousins with shooters. With the draft picks you'd look at Hield, Brown, Luwawu, Poeltl (maybe then Koufos is trade bait?), Beasley, Chriss, Zubac etc.

I don't know. But I know that Vlade has to make some fundamental changes to this roster. Karl was awful this year but just changing coaches isn't going to make this team a contender.
 
hrdboild

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#15
#15
I can see the Pelicans being interested in Rudy Gay if they don't get a SF in the draft (or maybe even if they do). They've been anxious to compete and they need a proven scorer on the wing, especially if they're losing Ryan Anderson. $13.3 million next year is a relative bargain compared to what any of the top free agents are going to cost.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#16
#16
need? I mean you put two ball dominant players on the same team and you got a recipe for a lottery bound season...so sure, maybe they can send us Motiejunas or something?
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#17
#17
funkykingston said:
Yeah, I feel similarly. Unfortunately it's the same thing with the Hawks who I proposed a three way deal that gets them Gay, the Rockets Teague and the Kings Ariza & Sefalosha.

The Pelicans didn't want him at the deadline so I doubt it, but what about a S&T for Anderson since NO thinks they'll lose him anyway? Sure, it's giving away Rudy when the Kings have the capriom to sign Anderson outright but then the Kings get an extra $13 million in free agency for whatever that's worth these days.

I don't think Rudy/Boogie works at all and I think Rudy/Boogie/Rondo is even worse so I believe the team should trade Gay this offseason. But I'm struggling to think of the right deal.

Maybe for a lesser player and a draft pick?
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This summer it might only go as high as, say, Matt Dellavedova worth. When you count dumpster fire bonus, Bazemore gets more, Batum or Conley get so much more it's not even funny. There's new financial reality, in which cap is going up more than 50% in a span of two seasons (this and next), so if you were willing to pay someone $10 million last summer, $15 million is the absolute minimum from now on.
People forgot too quickly, how good Rudy looked like, when he was actually put in his best place on offense, not some generic "you are one of 3 perimeter players, who attack the basket". He was willing to be more involved defensively as a result.
P.S. I know, it's frustrating, that players don't give 100% on D, just because they are paid huge salaries, but that's reality, and they need additional motivation in terms of correct role. We are not getting Paul George any time soon though.
 
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c-webb1s#1

c-webb1s#1

Starter
#18
#18
I'm no expert, but I think a combination of Rudy + the pick could net us something very solid in return. With that said however, I don't think Rudy on his own is worth as much as people around here would like to think. He played poorly this year and he isn't getting any younger. Now how much of that was GK system neutralizing what he does best....eh....that's to be determined. I still think he has it in him for 2-3 more years of high level play before he starts to fall off. That may be all the time we need him to play at that level too. Wait for the rise of WCS and DMC dominance and hope Ben comes along lol.

Oh yeah, and any value we get back from Rudy is going to have to make us better in the sense of "need a number 2 scorer who can do what Rudy does but much better". I just don't see many players around the league that are available that match that description. It would be best to keep Rudy if you can't get back someone like that. We all saw how hard DMC struggled some nights to keep the team when Rudy was out. He cannot be the only scorer.

Ben should be the one to go if anyone. If he mails it in this year again his value will plummet even more. I may be foolish but I think I wanna give marco one more year to prove himself. I wanna see if it was GK that was making him play like trash or was it the Spurs system making him seem better than he is.
 
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K

KingMilz

Guest
#19
#19
hrdboild said:
I can see the Pelicans being interested in Rudy Gay if they don't get a SF in the draft (or maybe even if they do). They've been anxious to compete and they need a proven scorer on the wing, especially if they're losing Ryan Anderson. $13.3 million next year is a relative bargain compared to what any of the top free agents are going to cost.
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Rudy for Jrue
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#20
#20
hrdboild said:
I can see the Pelicans being interested in Rudy Gay if they don't get a SF in the draft (or maybe even if they do). They've been anxious to compete and they need a proven scorer on the wing, especially if they're losing Ryan Anderson. $13.3 million next year is a relative bargain compared to what any of the top free agents are going to cost.
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Gilles said:
This summer it might only go as high as, say, Matt Dellavedova worth. When you count dumpster fire bonus, Bazemore gets more, Batum or Conley get so much more it's not even funny. There's new financial reality, in which cap is going up more than 50% in a span of two seasons (this and next), so if you were willing to pay someone $10 million last summer, $15 million is the absolute minimum from now on.
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Sure, but if Rondo is allowed to walk then trading Gay would give them $38 million or so. That's likely enough to sign a guy like Bazemore as well as Ryan Anderson and re-sign Curry.

Collison
Bazemore
Casspi
WCS
Cousins

with Anderson, Curry, Koufos and the first round pick off the bench isn't bad.
 
G

Gilles

Starter
#21
#21
Cuz needs a second creator next to him, and Collison proved multiple times in his career, that you don't want him as your second fiddle, so that's not a very potent team. Plus you really downgrade at SF, and no longer have any backup there.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#22
#22
Gilles said:
Cuz needs a second creator next to him, and Collison proved multiple times in his career, that you don't want him as your second fiddle, so that's not a very potent team. Plus you really downgrade at SF, and no longer have any backup there.
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I am at the point where I wonder if Rudy Gay is a net negative for the Kings. He is a ball stopper, his game is predicated on using an ISO to work his way to the basket or to rise up for a 10-15 footer. He struggled in George Karl's offense because Karl hates midrange jumpers and wanted only threes or attacks in the paint. Take a look at the difference in Gay's shot charts between last year and this year:

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/

As we all know, there's a reason most analytics guys don't like Rudy. When left to his own devices he takes what are considered to be poor shots. Moreover he doesn't space the floor for Cousins and his defense is very inconsistent because his effort is very inconsistent. Rudy also is not a guy who rises to challenges. When he's made the first option his efficiency plummets. When he's faced with a top notch defender, he struggles to score (which is understandable) but he also doesn't find other ways to help his team.

Despite my Collison/Bazemore example above I've become resigned to the idea that the Kings will very likely re-sign Rondo. And Vlade will give it one more go (with HIS coach) assembling a team around Cousins. If that's the case then two of your starters are Rondo and Cousins and there is a desperate need for the remaining players on the court to create space. E

So let's say Rondo signs a deal starting at $15.5 million -the Kings may overpay but they shouldn't, the market for Rajon won't be big and if somebody offers him $19 million a year then I hope Vlade lets him walk. Anyway, assuming Butler opts out, the Kings waive Dukan, renounce Moreland and taking into account the dead money from Wayne Ellington and the cap hold for the 8th pick in the draft the Kings would have:

Cousins
Rondo
Gay
Koufos
Belinelli
Collison
McLemore
Cauley-Stein
Casspi
Anderson*
Draft pick

And a little under $10 million in cap room.

Even though he doesn't create space, I don't move Cauley-Stein. He works well next to Cousins and he can also be the center in more of a running lineup. And I think the potential is there for him to develop a consistent midrange or even outside jumper. I also don't move Casspi. He's signed on the cheap, has become a great spot up shooter from 3 and brings a lot of energy. And though they can always cut him, the Kings are most likely stuck with Anderson's salary for next season which is why he's marked with an asterisk.

In my mind that means the team has

Rondo
Cousins
Cauley-Stein
Casspi

and Gay, Koufos, Belinelli, Collison, McLemore and the lottery pick are all players you either keep or use as trade assets to build around them/open up cap room to sign players.

If that's the scenario what do you do?
 
biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#23
#23
funkykingston said:
I am at the point where I wonder if Rudy Gay is a net negative for the Kings. He is a ball stopper, his game is predicated on using an ISO to work his way to the basket or to rise up for a 10-15 footer. He struggled in George Karl's offense because Karl hates midrange jumpers and wanted only threes or attacks in the paint. Take a look at the difference in Gay's shot charts between last year and this year:

http://vorped.com/1-nba/2014-2015/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2015-2016/player/1072/rudy-gay/shotchart/

As we all know, there's a reason most analytics guys don't like Rudy. When left to his own devices he takes what are considered to be poor shots. Moreover he doesn't space the floor for Cousins and his defense is very inconsistent because his effort is very inconsistent. Rudy also is not a guy who rises to challenges. When he's made the first option his efficiency plummets. When he's faced with a top notch defender, he struggles to score (which is understandable) but he also doesn't find other ways to help his team.

Despite my Collison/Bazemore example above I've become resigned to the idea that the Kings will very likely re-sign Rondo. And Vlade will give it one more go (with HIS coach) assembling a team around Cousins. If that's the case then two of your starters are Rondo and Cousins and there is a desperate need for the remaining players on the court to create space. E

So let's say Rondo signs a deal starting at $15.5 million -the Kings may overpay but they shouldn't, the market for Rajon won't be big and if somebody offers him $19 million a year then I hope Vlade lets him walk. Anyway, assuming Butler opts out, the Kings waive Dukan, renounce Moreland and taking into account the dead money from Wayne Ellington and the cap hold for the 8th pick in the draft the Kings would have:

Cousins
Rondo
Gay
Koufos
Belinelli
Collison
McLemore
Cauley-Stein
Casspi
Anderson*
Draft pick

And a little under $10 million in cap room.

Even though he doesn't create space, I don't move Cauley-Stein. He works well next to Cousins and he can also be the center in more of a running lineup. And I think the potential is there for him to develop a consistent midrange or even outside jumper. I also don't move Casspi. He's signed on the cheap, has become a great spot up shooter from 3 and brings a lot of energy. And though they can always cut him, the Kings are most likely stuck with Anderson's salary for next season which is why he's marked with an asterisk.

In my mind that means the team has

Rondo
Cousins
Cauley-Stein
Casspi

and Gay, Koufos, Belinelli, Collison, McLemore and the lottery pick are all players you either keep or use as trade assets to build around them/open up cap room to sign players.

If that's the scenario what do you do?
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Well, in that scenario I would call the Pelicans and see if they now want to do a sign and trade with Ryan Anderson for Rudy Gay so that they don't lose Anderson for nothing and can fill their void at SF.
Because we lose our starting SF I plan to start Casspi at SF as he provides good shooting.
With Rondo and Casspi in the starting five the SG needs to be a lockdown defender that can guard 1-3, so I call the Cavs and swap Mclemore for Shumpert.
Because I run out of cap space I then try to unload Belinelli and resign Curry as backup SG (3 mil), Acy as the 5th big (2 mil) and Butler to the vet min. Then fill out the rest of the roster with the draft pick, vets and Guidaitis

Rondo (32 min) Collison (28 min)
Shumpert (26 min) Curry (18 min)
Casspi (28 min) Butler (12 min)
Wcs (24 min) R. Anderson (24 min)
Cousins (32 min) Koufos (16 min)

The starting five has probably just enough shooting and scoring and if we ever run into trouble we can always swap Shump with Curry or Wcs for Anderson. Perimeter defense should be much improved. SF is probably a bit thin but Shumpert can play SF for a few mins as well and who knows who we draft.
The big rotation with Wcs, Anderson, Cousins and Koufos is about as we can get.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#25
#25
biltalent said:
Well, in that scenario I would call the Pelicans and see if they now want to do a sign and trade with Ryan Anderson for Rudy Gay so that they don't lose Anderson for nothing and can fill their void at SF.
Because we lose our starting SF I plan to start Casspi at SF as he provides good shooting.
With Rondo and Casspi in the starting five the SG needs to be a lockdown defender that can guard 1-3, so I call the Cavs and swap Mclemore for Shumpert.
Because I run out of cap space I then try to unload Belinelli and resign Curry as backup SG (3 mil), Acy as the 5th big (2 mil) and Butler to the vet min. Then fill out the rest of the roster with the draft pick, vets and Guidaitis

Rondo (32 min) Collison (28 min)
Shumpert (26 min) Curry (18 min)
Casspi (28 min) Butler (12 min)
Wcs (24 min) R. Anderson (24 min)
Cousins (32 min) Koufos (16 min)

The starting five has probably just enough shooting and scoring and if we ever run into trouble we can always swap Shump with Curry or Wcs for Anderson. Perimeter defense should be much improved. SF is probably a bit thin but Shumpert can play SF for a few mins as well and who knows who we draft.
The big rotation with Wcs, Anderson, Cousins and Koufos is about as we can get.
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Very much along the lines of what I'd do, though my first thought was calling the Hawks to see if they would trade Sefalosha for McLemore. Like Ben, Thabo is in the last year of his deal. He's also 30 and coming off injury but he knows his role as a 3&D wing. If Hield, Dunn or Brown drop to #8 (assuming the Kings don't move up) then I grab them. Otherwise I'd either look to move the pick or possibly package Collison with the Kings pick to move up a couple slots and get one of those guys.

In essence I wouldn't worry about a second scorer and count on Cousins and Rondo to open up lots of outside looks.

Is that a recipe for success? I don't know. But it's the best path forward I can see if the Kings are re-signing Rondo and building around he and Cousins.

On the other hand, this is a terrible draft year for the Kings to look at possibly blowing the whole thing up. I think Ingram will be a nice roleplayer or possibly high level starter but I don't see him as a building block. And Simmons might be worth building around but (1) he'd absolutely have to develop his jumper (2) I worry about his competitive drive (same thing with Ingram) and (3) he's a very odd piece to build around. You essentially have to surround him with shooters and let him play PG.

So the Kings are between a rock and a hard place. If Vlade and Catanella can hire the right coach and make the right roster moves to field a competitive team next year I'll be impressed and happy.
 
biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#27
#27
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
Why would Cleveland give us Shumpert for McLemore?
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Well they only played Shumpert 24 min a game of the bench during the regular seasons and only 15 min during this years playoffs. So its not like he is a center part of their team. The reason is probalby his bad shooting this year, as he shot 3s at .295% this season. Combine that with the fact that is locked up for 10+ mil a year and they don't need perimeter defense as bad as we and I can see why they would move him. Moreover, there were rumours at the trade deadline that the Cavs are open to dealing Shumpert and are interested in Mclemore (http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/4297/trade-chatter-is-kevin-love-untouchable). But of course as these are only rumours they may decline that deal.

LPKingsFan said:
Yeah, I don't see that as realistic. They were supposedly interested in Koufos, though, so maybe a McLemore/Koufos package gets it done. Hard to say what moves the Cavs will make at this point, though, until things play out the next few weeks.
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Well if throwing in Koufos gets this deal done, why not?
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#28
#28
biltalent said:
Well if throwing in Koufos gets this deal done, why not?
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I agree. Playing along with your scenario, if you have Cousins, Anderson, and WCS as your main big rotation, I think there will be fewer minutes for the 4th big than the 16 you allotted to Kofous above. So, I certainly think you can afford to downgrade there, and try to sign a guy like Aldrich instead.

Again, I'm just not sure what the Cavs will want to do this summer until I see how the playoffs play out.
 
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