Coaching Candidates for next season (merged)
- Thread starter funkykingston
- Start date
I think Mike Woodson is getting underrated here. Since becoming a head coach for the Hawks back in 2004-2005 season, his team got better every year going from 13 wins, 26, 30, 37, 47 and 53 before getting canned. Then in his short stint in New York, he coached the team to a 18-6 record in 24 games and the following season followed it up with a 54-28. However, the following year his team regressed drastically and fell to 37-45. In his stint with New York, he has a .580 winning percentage and while in Atlanta .419.
Darren Wolfson@DWolfsonKSTP
about 5 minutes ago
Told approximately $11M/year is the price being negotiated for the Thibs/Layden combo. Taylor not messing around. #twolves
Thibs appears to be off the market soon. Man minny is going to be a force moving forward.
Yes he deserves a shot. But somehow it's difficult to me to envision Luke Walton, who basically looks the same now as he looked in a Lakers jersey 
, standing on the sidelines for the Kings.
, standing on the sidelines for the Kings.
Darren Wolfson@DWolfsonKSTP
about 5 minutes ago
Told approximately $11M/year is the price being negotiated for the Thibs/Layden combo. Taylor not messing around. #twolves
Thibs appears to be off the market soon. Man minny is going to be a force moving forward.
eh... i'm inclined to be pretty generous with luke walton. yes, the warriors he coached through half the season are historically great, but he still led them to a 39-4 record, which kept them on pace to break the '95-'96 bulls' regular season win total. that's no small or easy task for a young lead assistant to accomplish, especially when one considers the stakes. time will tell just how "good" of a coach walton will become in the nba, but a lesser coach likely would have faltered under the pressure when put in his position. i remain impressed that the warriors didn't skip a beat or lose a step under his guidance. that's an achievement all its own, if you ask me...
To be fair, you didn't say that no teams are winning playing inside out. You said teams are all moving towards "fast paced, perimeter oriented small ball with multiple ballhandlers and shooters" which is a very different statement and clearly not the case.
It is true that there are few examples of teams heavily using the inside-out style currently. Is that because it's ineffective in today's game, because there is a great dearth of post players? The reality is that there are a VERY small number of bigs that actually have a refined post game. Jefferson certainly. Cousins does. Randolph to an extent but he's not as fundamentally sound as he is physically imposing. Duncan was the best of them but he's moved away from being a primary option as his career wanes. Of the next generation only Jahlil Okafor (and possibly Embiid if he every gets healthy and keeps developing) is highly effective with his back to the basket. KAT has some skill down low but he's more of a hybrid big man. Kind of like Cousins but Boogie is better in the blocks and KAT has a more advanced face up game than DMC did at the same age.
Anthony Davis has really no semblance of a post game. Outside of that you're really just looking at bigs that came from overseas, many of whom have the skillset but struggle a bit against the size and speed of NBA defenders. Neither does DeAndre Jordan. Drummond is still incredibly rudimentary. Dwight Howard never developed a post game that (and injuries) is why his game has fallen off dramatically even though he's only 30.
Basketball is always going to be a game of moves and counter moves on both the micro (a player and his defender) and the macro (team vs team) and historically all of these things have been seen before. College and international teams have zoned for years. In the U.S. that's (I'm guessing) part of what led to fewer players developing a post game and big guys having more of a face up game. Internationally guys are still learning the post game but they are also becoming more well rounded players because they have to - being able to face up and shoot, being able to pass, especially out of double teams etc.
The loosening of NBA rules has let teams flood the ball side and leave two guys essentially zoning three players on the weakside. We'll never again see a guy like Charles Barkley or Mark Jackson slowly back his defender down into the post from 15 ft out. So yes, post players now must catch the ball in position and make quicker moves, no doubt. And a strong post player will often get fronted with the weakside man cheating way off to double if the ball is thrown in over the top. So there has to be a counter for that and there is. It's good, old fashioned ball movement and outside shooting. It's why I think to win with Cousins you have to surround him with shooters. It's no different than Hakeem with the Rockets except that teams have to be quicker to read and react because the removal of the illegal defense rules means you can't count on automatic spacing.
One last point. What makes the Warriors so great isn't just their shooting, passing and unselfishness on offense. It's their defense. Specifically it's their ability to go small but still defend bigger teams. Their guards (Curry, Thompson, Livingston, Barbosa, Rush) are all big for their position and can switch. Andre Iguodala can guard 1-3 and some small ball 4's. Harrison Barnes is very strong in his lower body and can guard PFs that try to post him up. Bogut is a very good defensive center but they also have the option to let the 2nd best defender in the NBA (according to the last two DPOY votes) switch onto centers and not be overmatched the vast majority of the time. The fact that Draymond Green at under 6'6" can stop NBA bigs from posting him up is a both an amazing capability he has and at the same time an indictment of the post up ability of this era's big men. Is there anyone who thinks Shaq in his prime wouldn't score every time down if the two guys tasked with stopping him were Green and Barnes?
And that's exactly why I think the Kings CAN win with Cousins. With the right supporting cast (and I don't believe Rudy Gay is that at all) he gives a weapon that creates a mistmatch that other teams can't answer for. Boogie needs to be more efficient, he needs to make good decisions on when to attack and when to move the ball and he needs teammates around him that can punish teams for flooding the ball side by hitting outside shots, but I don't think in any way you can't win in the NBA playing inside out.
It is true that there are few examples of teams heavily using the inside-out style currently. Is that because it's ineffective in today's game, because there is a great dearth of post players? The reality is that there are a VERY small number of bigs that actually have a refined post game. Jefferson certainly. Cousins does. Randolph to an extent but he's not as fundamentally sound as he is physically imposing. Duncan was the best of them but he's moved away from being a primary option as his career wanes. Of the next generation only Jahlil Okafor (and possibly Embiid if he every gets healthy and keeps developing) is highly effective with his back to the basket. KAT has some skill down low but he's more of a hybrid big man. Kind of like Cousins but Boogie is better in the blocks and KAT has a more advanced face up game than DMC did at the same age.
Anthony Davis has really no semblance of a post game. Outside of that you're really just looking at bigs that came from overseas, many of whom have the skillset but struggle a bit against the size and speed of NBA defenders. Neither does DeAndre Jordan. Drummond is still incredibly rudimentary. Dwight Howard never developed a post game that (and injuries) is why his game has fallen off dramatically even though he's only 30.
Basketball is always going to be a game of moves and counter moves on both the micro (a player and his defender) and the macro (team vs team) and historically all of these things have been seen before. College and international teams have zoned for years. In the U.S. that's (I'm guessing) part of what led to fewer players developing a post game and big guys having more of a face up game. Internationally guys are still learning the post game but they are also becoming more well rounded players because they have to - being able to face up and shoot, being able to pass, especially out of double teams etc.
The loosening of NBA rules has let teams flood the ball side and leave two guys essentially zoning three players on the weakside. We'll never again see a guy like Charles Barkley or Mark Jackson slowly back his defender down into the post from 15 ft out. So yes, post players now must catch the ball in position and make quicker moves, no doubt. And a strong post player will often get fronted with the weakside man cheating way off to double if the ball is thrown in over the top. So there has to be a counter for that and there is. It's good, old fashioned ball movement and outside shooting. It's why I think to win with Cousins you have to surround him with shooters. It's no different than Hakeem with the Rockets except that teams have to be quicker to read and react because the removal of the illegal defense rules means you can't count on automatic spacing.
One last point. What makes the Warriors so great isn't just their shooting, passing and unselfishness on offense. It's their defense. Specifically it's their ability to go small but still defend bigger teams. Their guards (Curry, Thompson, Livingston, Barbosa, Rush) are all big for their position and can switch. Andre Iguodala can guard 1-3 and some small ball 4's. Harrison Barnes is very strong in his lower body and can guard PFs that try to post him up. Bogut is a very good defensive center but they also have the option to let the 2nd best defender in the NBA (according to the last two DPOY votes) switch onto centers and not be overmatched the vast majority of the time. The fact that Draymond Green at under 6'6" can stop NBA bigs from posting him up is a both an amazing capability he has and at the same time an indictment of the post up ability of this era's big men. Is there anyone who thinks Shaq in his prime wouldn't score every time down if the two guys tasked with stopping him were Green and Barnes?
And that's exactly why I think the Kings CAN win with Cousins. With the right supporting cast (and I don't believe Rudy Gay is that at all) he gives a weapon that creates a mistmatch that other teams can't answer for. Boogie needs to be more efficient, he needs to make good decisions on when to attack and when to move the ball and he needs teammates around him that can punish teams for flooding the ball side by hitting outside shots, but I don't think in any way you can't win in the NBA playing inside out.
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I agree with almost everything you said, but you have to acknowledge that a big reason why the Warriors are winning is because of their shooting. 1o/16 teams in the playoffs this year are shooting at league average.
The teams that aren't are: Memphis, Boston, Miami, Detroit, Houston, and OKC. Memphis/Houston has no business being in the playoffs this year...
Ok, those teams aren't in the top of the league at 3pt shooting, so what else do they have in common? Each one of those teams have top 10 guards at either position..except for Memphis. (side note: very interesting piece about Memphis' Grit N Grind http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15234297/how-grit-n-grind-defines-grizzlies-better-worse)
Boston: IT/Bradley. Miami: Wade. Detroit: Jackson. Houston: Harden OKC: Westbrook
The Kings can't survive in the NBA without perimeter play, which is why I agree with you. The Kings need to add perimeter players. Cousins needs to punish opposing teams for doubling on him. Too often, we see Cousins force the issue down low while keeping his head down, or the rest our players in stand-still motion watching Cousins.
I think the hardest task for Vlade will be finding an elite guard. A few guys who come in mind are: Bradley Beal and Evan Fournier. Clarkson could be a dark-horse candidate who explodes in a few years.
I think Blatt would be a very good candidate for this team. He's a defensive minded coach who does integrate parts of the Princeton offense...and actually played at Princeton. There could be a few foreign ties to Vlade as well. The only big question is, will Blatt allow Cousins to undermine him like Lebron did? If Vlade gives Blatt full approval to do whatever he wants with his roster, I think Blatt will succeed.
He's a top 3 candidate for me.
The teams that aren't are: Memphis, Boston, Miami, Detroit, Houston, and OKC. Memphis/Houston has no business being in the playoffs this year...
Ok, those teams aren't in the top of the league at 3pt shooting, so what else do they have in common? Each one of those teams have top 10 guards at either position..except for Memphis. (side note: very interesting piece about Memphis' Grit N Grind http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15234297/how-grit-n-grind-defines-grizzlies-better-worse)
Boston: IT/Bradley. Miami: Wade. Detroit: Jackson. Houston: Harden OKC: Westbrook
The Kings can't survive in the NBA without perimeter play, which is why I agree with you. The Kings need to add perimeter players. Cousins needs to punish opposing teams for doubling on him. Too often, we see Cousins force the issue down low while keeping his head down, or the rest our players in stand-still motion watching Cousins.
I think the hardest task for Vlade will be finding an elite guard. A few guys who come in mind are: Bradley Beal and Evan Fournier. Clarkson could be a dark-horse candidate who explodes in a few years.
I think Blatt would be a very good candidate for this team. He's a defensive minded coach who does integrate parts of the Princeton offense...and actually played at Princeton. There could be a few foreign ties to Vlade as well. The only big question is, will Blatt allow Cousins to undermine him like Lebron did? If Vlade gives Blatt full approval to do whatever he wants with his roster, I think Blatt will succeed.
He's a top 3 candidate for me.
To be fair I didn't say all teams are moving towards "fast paced, perimeter oriented small ball...". I said the league is trending towards it. Meaning eventually more and more teams will play that way.
Maybe I should back out of my claim and better say, that the league is trending towards fast paced, perimeter oriented basketball not small ball, because you are right, some teams are not necessarily small, while they still play in a way, that is certainly not inside out.
I disagree to a certain point with the statement about the absence of post players. There are some players with solid post games, but they aren't used very much: Monroe, JV for example.
But more interesting would be the question, why there aren't lots of post players. Is it because the basketball education has changed, because the post game is less effective? Chicken or egg?
I pretty much agree on all the rest. But the removing of the illegal defense rules is absolute key and the biggest reason, why I fear an inside out approach with Cousins is very difficult to pull off. What you describe as" teams have to be quicker to read and react" turns every post up into a risky play. Double teams come that quick, that it's very hard for a big man to react properly as soon as he has commited to his move. It's why the Warriors are so successful when doubling Cousins as soon as he makes his move. And even catching the ball in the post can be very difficult.
Running a pick&roll from the top with a solid ballhandler? Not that difficult, because it's much harder to double team and the defense needs to fight to catch up. A mediocre undersized guard like Seth can be pretty deadly running the pick&roll. A great player like his brother can be nearly impossible to defend.
Beside my doubts, we are certainly in the same boat. I want this team to be successful with Cousins. Best way I can think of is getting 3-4 good defenders around 6'4 to 6'8 on this team, who can hit shots, dribble the ball and are able to defend the perimeter.
Easier said than done.
Meaning eventually more and more teams will play that way. Maybe I should back out of my claim and better say, that the league is trending towards fast paced, perimeter oriented basketball not small ball, because you are right, some teams are not necessarily small, while they still play in a way, that is certainly not inside out.
I disagree to a certain point with the statement about the absence of post players. There are some players with solid post games, but they aren't used very much: Monroe, JV for example.
But more interesting would be the question, why there aren't lots of post players. Is it because the basketball education has changed, because the post game is less effective? Chicken or egg?
I pretty much agree on all the rest. But the removing of the illegal defense rules is absolute key and the biggest reason, why I fear an inside out approach with Cousins is very difficult to pull off. What you describe as" teams have to be quicker to read and react" turns every post up into a risky play. Double teams come that quick, that it's very hard for a big man to react properly as soon as he has commited to his move. It's why the Warriors are so successful when doubling Cousins as soon as he makes his move. And even catching the ball in the post can be very difficult.
Running a pick&roll from the top with a solid ballhandler? Not that difficult, because it's much harder to double team and the defense needs to fight to catch up. A mediocre undersized guard like Seth can be pretty deadly running the pick&roll. A great player like his brother can be nearly impossible to defend.
Beside my doubts, we are certainly in the same boat. I want this team to be successful with Cousins. Best way I can think of is getting 3-4 good defenders around 6'4 to 6'8 on this team, who can hit shots, dribble the ball and are able to defend the perimeter.
Easier said than done.
To be fair I didn't say all teams are moving towards "fast paced, perimeter oriented small ball...". I said the league is trending towards it. Meaning eventually more and more teams will play that way.
Maybe I should back out of my claim and better say, that the league is trending towards fast paced, perimeter oriented basketball not small ball, because you are right, some teams are not necessarily small, while they still play in a way, that is certainly not inside out.
Meaning eventually more and more teams will play that way.Maybe I should back out of my claim and better say, that the league is trending towards fast paced, perimeter oriented basketball not small ball, because you are right, some teams are not necessarily small, while they still play in a way, that is certainly not inside out.
I didn't watch many Bucks games this year but unless something has changed dramatically I've never thought of Monroe having a post game. And that goes all the way back to Georgetown where he was often initiating the offense from the top of the key. He was a good passer, good rebounder and had good range on his jump shot but no post game to speak of. I assume JV means Jonas Valanciunis? He came in with the reputation of being a good post player (again, international players are still being coached to post up) but he struggled early on. Mostly because he really just had the hook shot, teams knew it, creating turnovers going after the ball. He also lacked the strength to get and maintain position in the blocks. He does have great hands and nice touch and has continued to improve on that end to the point where he creates open threes when posting up. He's still not a dominant post player. Valanciunis' big issue is that he's weak defensively - not Enes Canter bad - but definitely still a liability. But I digress.
But more interesting would be the question, why there aren't lots of post players. Is it because the basketball education has changed, because the post game is less effective? Chicken or egg?
Stuff like the rise of AAU ball, And1 mixtapes, YouTube, Sportcenter highlights etc hasn't helped either. And that's not just in terms of post play. Lots of guys play at high level (even the NBA) without using a proper defensive stance, knowing how to box out effectively etc. Not to drift too far into "you kids get off my lawn" territory but there isn't the same focus on the fundamentals and post play requires a LOT of fundamentals. And a LOT of time to develop moves and learn to use them effectively.
I don't see a Cousins post up as any more risky than a James Harden drive to the hoop if the team is giving him proper spacing to catch the ball. Yeah, Draymond Green said they had success doubling Cousins once he started making his move, but the other part of that quote was that if they doubled him early he had the passing ability to "carve them up". So in my mind it's just a matter of Cousins learning to be able to learn to pass after he starts his move. It's something Shaq got better at as his career went along. And a team can definitely load up on the ball side and make it difficult for a post entry pass. The solution there is to swing the ball weakside faster than the two defenders over there can rotate and hit threes until they are forced to change their spacing.
And yet the Warriors ran the pick and roll less often than any NBA team. Part of that is that with the proliferation of the ICE approach that Tom Thibodeau ushered in teams are effectively zoning the ball handler and giving up the pop to the big man. Draymond Green is a good shooter for a PF but if Curry can create his own shot wouldn't you much rather have that? Moves and countermoves.
It's worth noting however that even though the Warriors were dead last in the percentage of possessions ended with a P&R and the ball handler taking the shot (and second to last in the total number of those plays to the Knicks who played at a significantly slower pace) the Warriors were still the most efficient and turning them into points. That team is a juggernaut.
And that's really the bottom line. Unless Cousins is dealt this offseason, the team needs to learn how they can win games with him as their centerpiece. It can be fun to argue about how feasible that is but really all of us want to see the Kings figure it out so they can win games.
Also sounds like Grunfeld is meeting with Scott Brooks right now in California and pushing to close a deal to make him the Wizards coach. Of the "big name" coaches I did think Brooks was the one that the Kings would have a shot at because of the local ties but I guess not.
Still, if Thibs goes to Minnesota, Brooks to Washington and if JVG to Houston while LAL and New York keep their current coaches then at least the Kings will likely have their pick of the coaches that are willing to interview with Vlade.
McHale, Walton and Udoka are three guys that really intrigue me.
Still, if Thibs goes to Minnesota, Brooks to Washington and if JVG to Houston while LAL and New York keep their current coaches then at least the Kings will likely have their pick of the coaches that are willing to interview with Vlade.
McHale, Walton and Udoka are three guys that really intrigue me.
these are the names that intrigue me, as well. JVG would be first on my list after thibodeau, but i think he'd much rather remain in broadcasting than come to sacramento, and thibs was always a going to be a longshot. so mchale is the name with experience that i'm most attracted to because of his potential fit with boogie, and udoka/walton are the up-and-comers who are as close to a "sure thing" as you're likely to find with a first-time head coach. both were roleplayers/effort guys during their playing days, both have a very high basketball IQ, both have been mentored by great nba minds, both have been paying their dues as assistants (as opposed to making the jump straight into head coaching a la jason kidd and derek fisher), and both are highly regarded around the league. i suppose i could roll with a guy like nate mcmillan, and i could also roll the dice on a name like david blatt, but right now, mchale/udoka/walton are my top-three...
