Arena Lawsuit

[Warhawk]

As one of the members of #FANS and a founder of CrownDowntown, maybe I should reiterate what Mike just said: None of us has personally received a DIME for our work over the years. I have spent maybe a few hundred over the years, Mike over $10k, and I don't know about the Captain and kennadog - I guess somewhere between me and Mike, especially kennadog. Anything we have received has gone straight into t-shirts, signs, promotions, etc., etc. Don't think that for a second anyone on the good side has taken a penny from any contributions no matter where they are from. Even when we had group meetings we paid for the pizza out of our own pockets.

If Mike brings up the publicly-stated political goals of the current largest STOP donor (from a newspaper article in the major local paper no less!), how is that "character assassination"??? Is it also "character assassination" to mention that Chris Hansen wanted to buy the Kings and move the team to Seattle? If not, why not?

 

[Mike0476]

I don't like politics either. But bringing up political behavior is as clean as it gets. None of what I read about Rufer was personal.

Remember that Rufer wants his political ideals front and center. That's why he's spending the money. He's not ashamed of his politics, so why should we be afraid to say it?

THIS. ALL OF THIS.

 

[whozit]

I don't like politics either. But bringing up political behavior is as clean as it gets. None of what I read about Rufer was personal.

Remember that Rufer wants his political ideals front and center. That's why he's spending the money. He's not ashamed of his politics, so why should we be afraid to say it?

I was born in Sacramento County but I now live in Kentucky and consider it my home. Just saying that to be clear, I'm irrelevant and my opinions are just that mine. There is nothing clean about politics. According the article, he is about his politics not himself. The tweets made it about him because of his politics. That is personal. Ignoring him keeps his ideas from being front and center. He spent his money on a issue that the target audience has a built in bias. That bias most likely makes the audience less receptive.

I was disappointed in the response. It is no different than when I was disappointed with the news conference in the cemetery by that other group. Don't disagree with the agenda just the means.

 

[FaStRmAn]

You are right. Subsidies are standard. The arena is high profile and Rufer wants credit for opposing it. He cares not about the people or the city.

Put him on the list of those not welcome at the Arena along with all the petition signers. Facial recognition at the entrances to keep out those that are so MYOPIC that they are unable to see the benefits of having an economic catalyst in the middle of a moribund downtown area. I'm old enough to remember Natomas before the first arena. It was just fields. Now it is a tax revenue stream for the city. And even though the there will be a noticable reduction of taxes from that area when the Kings move to the new arena, it will be more than made up for in economic growth and taxes from the downtown area.

 

[Livinthedream]

I was born in Sacramento County but I now live in Kentucky and consider it my home. Just saying that to be clear, I'm irrelevant and my opinions are just that mine. There is nothing clean about politics. According the article, he is about his politics not himself. The tweets made it about him because of his politics. That is personal. Ignoring him keeps his ideas from being front and center. He spent his money on a issue that the target audience has a built in bias. That bias most likely makes the audience less receptive.

I was disappointed in the response. It is no different than when I was disappointed with the news conference in the cemetery by that other group. Don't disagree with the agenda just the means.

You're entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't try to change your mind. Just be aware that Rufer's money is funding STOP's behavior. Can't separate the two because he as one supporter alone has kept STOP afloat. Being true to your political beliefs does not make someone "cleaner" than the next. I have no problems with Rufer and his political beliefs. But it's fair game once he threw his money in the ring.

 

[whozit]

As one of the members of #FANS and a founder of STOP, maybe I should reiterate what Mike just said: None of us has personally received a DIME for our work over the years. I have spent maybe a few hundred over the years, Mike over $10k, and I don't know about the Captain and kennadog - I guess somewhere between me and Mike, especially kennadog. Anything we have received has gone straight into t-shirts, signs, promotions, etc., etc. Don't think that for a second anyone on the good side has taken a penny from any contributions no matter where they are from. Even when we had group meetings we paid for the pizza out of our own pockets.

If Mike brings up the publicly-stated political goals of the current largest STOP donor (from a newspaper article in the major local paper no less!), how is that "character assassination"??? Is it also "character assassination" to mention that Chris Hansen wanted to buy the Kings and move the team to Seattle? If not, why not?

Your a founder of STOP? Don't worry, I think I know better.

The comment about the money and it's sources came from this tweet:

Crown Downtown ‏@CrownDowntown 23h
Anti-Sacramento group major funding came from those who do NOT live in city. 1. Chris Hansen, $100k 2. Chris Rufer, $93k 3. Non-union, $45k

It infers he is an outsider. Hansen is an outsider. I wouldn't consider someone living in Sacramento County as an outsider, just someone local who happens to be wrong. Lumping him with Hansen IS "character assassination."

 

[Mike0476]

Your a founder of STOP? Don't worry, I think I know better.

The comment about the money and it's sources came from this tweet:



It infers he is an outsider. Hansen is an outsider. I wouldn't consider someone living in Sacramento County as an outsider, just someone local who happens to be wrong. Lumping him with Hansen IS "character assassination."

STOP has always said only the voters of the city of Sacramento matter. None of the above live within the city's limits.

All three major funding sources are also trying to kill/delay the arena deal. That's not character assassination.

From the same Bee article on Rufer's little coming out party:

The head of the political action committee launched by Mayor Kevin Johnson and funded by the Kings describes Rufer as “another outsider” trying to torpedo an arena project that he says will create thousands of jobs and cement the Kings’ long-term future in Sacramento.
“Rufer’s funding of STOP is supporting STOP’s effort to steal 4,000 jobs, steal a once-in-a-generation opportunity to transform downtown and makes him an accomplice in Seattle’s attempt to steal the Kings,” said Joshua Wood, executive director of The4000, the pro-arena PAC trying to keep the subsidy question off the ballot.

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2014/02/09/6140539/why-agribusinessman-is-bankrolling.html

Like I said this is a political battle.

 

[whozit]

You're entitled to your opinion and I wouldn't try to change your mind. Just be aware that Rufer's money is funding STOP's behavior. Can't separate the two because he as one supporter alone has kept STOP afloat. Being true to your political beliefs does not make someone "cleaner" than the next. I have no problems with Rufer and his political beliefs. But it's fair game once he threw his money in the ring.

Fair enough, however where did "being true to your political beliefs does not make some "cleaner" than the next" come from? For me, my disappointment stems from a hope that Crown Downtown was "cleaner" (and for the record, I still do by a large margin) than STOP.

I do hold Crown Downtown to a higher standard, a much higher standard. Because I think they have deserved and earned that standard. Politics taint.

 

[Mike0476]

The arena situation is political. When a weak political activist group does something to gain headlines, a strong political figure typically comes in and hijacks the cause for their own personal gain. This is what Hansen and this guy Rufer has done.

STOP is nothing more than puppets to their puppet masters in Hansen and Rufer.

Livinthedream gets it. This is a political battle. It's ugly. It's dirty. No other way around it.

 

[Warhawk]

Your a founder of STOP? Don't worry, I think I know better.

The comment about the money and it's sources came from this tweet:



It infers he is an outsider. Hansen is an outsider. I wouldn't consider someone living in Sacramento County as an outsider, just someone local who happens to be wrong. Lumping him with Hansen IS "character assassination."

Yeah, brain dump while typing. Thinking one thing and typed the wrong group - thinking ahead to my next paragraph. And yes, you do know better.

And the tweet just says "outside the city" - you inferred the "outsider" part. I and others have been absolutely hammered in Bee comments and social media about not living within city limits - so why do I show up at City Council meetings, etc., etc. I think the same should be able to be said about their major financial backers if that is one of their main points of contention. Why can't they get what they need from city residents? Their funding is basically entirely from outside the city they claim is so important to protect from outside influence.

 

[Mike0476]

Fair enough, however where did "being true to your political beliefs does not make some "cleaner" than the next" come from? For me, my disappointment stems from a hope that Crown Downtown was "cleaner" (and for the record, I still do by a large margin) than STOP.

I do hold Crown Downtown to a higher standard, a much higher standard. Because I think they have deserved and earned that standard. Politics taint.

If Rufer never mentioned that he was marketing his ideas then we would not

Yeah, brain dump while typing. Thinking one thing and typed the wrong group - thinking ahead to my next paragraph. And yes, you do know better.

And the tweet just says "outside the city" - you inferred the "outsider" part. I and others have been absolutely hammered in Bee comments and social media about not living within city limits - so why do I show up at City Council meetings, etc., etc. I think the same should be able to be said about their major financial backers if that is one of their main points of contention. Why can't they get what they need from city residents? Their funding is basically entirely from outside the city they claim is so important to protect from outside influence.

ALL. OF. THIS.

 

[Mike0476]

For the record I do not care that Rufer is a Libertarian.

It's the fact that he is funding the opposition solely based on his political agenda.

He was arrogant in his comments such as how the arena will be built but on his terms. Who does he think he is? Where was he in 2012? Where was he before Chris Hansen in 2013? He saw an opportunity to get his name out there after Hansen was discovered.

Rufer is using STOP just like Hansen did.

 

[whozit]

For the record I do not care that Rufer is a Libertarian.

It's the fact that he is funding the opposition solely based on his political agenda.

He was arrogant in his comments such as how the arena will be built but on his terms. Who does he think he is? Where was he in 2012? Where was he before Chris Hansen in 2013? He saw an opportunity to get his name out there after Hansen was discovered.

Rufer is using STOP just like Hansen did.

Then why reward him by putting his name out there? He got a response which only encourages him to do it again. Silence can be golden.

 

[Warhawk]

From my point of view, I don't care if he is a Rep, Dem, Lib, or Martian. He is the one who has come out and stated "This is what I am and this is what I believe" and, most importantly, "My beliefs are the reason I am dumping my funds into this effort."

He made the statements, and he stated his beliefs, and he is the one saying that the ONLY reason he is funding this is to espouse his political views. In order to shed some light on where the opposition funding is coming from, it is impossible not to address the reason he is contributing. As long as that is done in a factual and even manner, there is no "character assassination" involved.

 

[whozit]

Yeah, brain dump while typing. Thinking one thing and typed the wrong group - thinking ahead to my next paragraph. And yes, you do know better.

And the tweet just says "outside the city" - you inferred the "outsider" part. I and others have been absolutely hammered in Bee comments and social media about not living within city limits - so why do I show up at City Council meetings, etc., etc. I think the same should be able to be said about their major financial backers if that is one of their main points of contention. Why can't they get what they need from city residents? Their funding is basically entirely from outside the city they claim is so important to protect from outside influence.

Yes, I inferred the "outsider" part. I think it was Graswich who put the tweet I had quoted earlier in the thread that said 'by outsiders.' The tweets had come so quickly together that I put them together. I didn't realize that you lived outside the city limits, good for you for being heavily involved. The health of the city of Sacramento affects the health of Sacramento County. The city of Sacramento is the capital of the world's eight or ninth (depending on source) largest economy. The health of California affects the health of the nation I live in. It would symbolically have been sad if said capital couldn't have kept it's only team. Something about bigger than basketball.

 

[whozit]

From my point of view, I don't care if he is a Rep, Dem, Lib, or Martian. He is the one who has come out and stated "This is what I am and this is what I believe" and, most importantly, "My beliefs are the reason I am dumping my funds into this effort."

He made the statements, and he stated his beliefs, and he is the one saying that the ONLY reason he is funding this is to espouse his political views. In order to shed some light on where the opposition funding is coming from, it is impossible not to address the reason he is contributing. As long as that is done in a factual and even manner, there is no "character assassination" involved.

Maybe "character assassination" was a little strong but then again maybe not. It just didn't feel right. However, how I would characterize or feel about it is irrelevant, each to their own. STOP has come across as bumbling idiots, I just don't understand rewarding someone with publicity whose only goal was said publicity. It can almost give them credibility which they don't deserve.

 

[Mike0476]

Maybe "character assassination" was a little strong but then again maybe not. It just didn't feel right. However, how I would characterize or feel about it is irrelevant, each to their own. STOP has come across as bumbling idiots, I just don't understand rewarding someone with publicity whose only goal was said publicity. It can almost give them credibility which they don't deserve.

I would have to say character assassination would be more like saying he has accepted subsidies.

That would mean lying, misinformation or spinning a story. We won't do that.

 

[Warhawk]

Yes, I inferred the "outsider" part. I think it was Graswich who put the tweet I had quoted earlier in the thread that said 'by outsiders.' The tweets had come so quickly together that I put them together. I didn't realize that you lived outside the city limits, good for you for being heavily involved. The health of the city of Sacramento affects the health of Sacramento County. The city of Sacramento is the capital of the world's eight or ninth (depending on source) largest economy. The health of California affects the health of the nation I live in. It would symbolically have been sad if said capital couldn't have kept it's only team. Something about bigger than basketball.

Yeah, I live in south Sacramento County and work in West Sacramento, so I drive through Sac every day. But I don't normally spend money there much at all unless I am going to an event of some sort. If I get lunch at work, it is in Yolo County. Shopping, movies, groceries, etc? Galt, Elk Grove, Lodi (mostly movies - nicer theater than Elk Grove), etc., depending on what it is and where I am going that day.

If Sac wants my money, it is either for events (arena [mostly], musicals, museums, etc.) or the rare shopping not available in Elk Grove (Cub Scout store for my son's den, furniture, etc.). I think my point of view (as a non-resident that normally only spends money in the City at the arena or similar events) is one that is overlooked by the STOP folks. They don't realize the money they make from "outsiders" that come in, spend money, don't use services, and go home! We are the ones they should be COURTING to visit, as we don't take up police, fire, or social services at all and just spend money for them to use to run things!

 

[Gary]

The guy is an idiot any way you cut it, and that's how I will picture him. He's the enemy and he deserves no mercy..

 

[Mike0476]

Then why reward him by putting his name out there? He got a response which only encourages him to do it again. Silence can be golden.

When his name became known for the first time we said next to nothing.

It was the Bee who did a feature on him. Why? Because money talks (he donated more money).

 

[Mike0476]

Then why reward him by putting his name out there? He got a response which only encourages him to do it again. Silence can be golden.

Silence can be golden?

Last summer someone once told us the following:

1. I don't know who Tab Berg is

2. I'm not following what STOP is doing

3. We should just ignore STOP

Glad we didn't listen and did what we did.

 

[whozit]

Silence can be golden?

Last summer someone once told us the following:

1. I don't know who Tab Berg is

2. I'm not following what STOP is doing

3. We should just ignore STOP

Glad we didn't listen and did what we did.

Silence in terms of ignoring. He spent money to get his voice heard, your making it money well spent or at least not foolishly wasted (both are debatable). However, if I'm from his party I may not be too happy with him getting the libertarian party associated with STOP.

STOP needs to be stopped. I just didn't agree with the antics of the other night and I don't know why you have a problem with that. I have followed Crown Downtown because I think the cause is correct. And I still do.

 

[John Galt]

I don't think calling out CrownDowntown is helpful right now - can't we (pro arena) circle the wagons a little right now please? Big picture... big picture.

 

[whozit]

I don't think calling out CrownDowntown is helpful right now - can't we (pro arena) circle the wagons a little right now please? Big picture... big picture.

They have done a wonderful job. IMHO they took a misstep. I am not calling them out on twitter or any other electronic media. I made a comment in a sub-section of web-site that is probably mostly viewed by pro-arena people. In the other forum we gripe how players always complain about fouls called against them and that they act as if they never commit one. Is it not OK to say that we may have committed one? It does not change the fact that the goal is correct.

 

[Gary]

You're kind of complaining about something that doesn't even matter though. Something that's got nothing to do with the greater scheme of things. To me, you're complaining reminds me a lot of what I used to read on sacbee.

 

[whozit]

You're right, in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter. It was a throw-away comment on my view/opinion of a line of tweets. That is what message boards are about. When you have differing opinions on things that happen you exchange views and possibly come to an understanding where the other person is coming from.

 

[Gary]

Bah.... We're all on the same side and both you and Mike got their point across. Let's be positive! It's going to be built 10000%

 

[whozit]

I am pretty confidant that it will be built. One day may even come out to visit my sister and see it. Just have to be careful of missteps. Right now they have the image (STOP must be jealous) of being the defenders, don't want to change that to being the aggressors. Fine and difficult line to walk.

 

[Gary]

One thing I always wanted to know is why do people always complain (STOP) about specific projects like this and then turn around and don't say a peep when there was a 500,000 court building built when the one we had was just fine? It's not like the court is going to leave town if they don't have a new courthouse.

The fights these people pick are the exact fights a troll would pick if he wanted to get a rise out of someone. It's the first rule of trolling, don't troll something that nobody cares about, and that nobody will read. That's why I am going out of my way to make these people miserable in their daily lives whenever I can.

 

[whozit]

It could also be the source of funding. Was the court building federal funds? Is there an entity in the project that can be vilified? Is there an angle that can get a sympathetic ear? Or an angle that can get traction?

Trolls as you would call them, also think they are right. Even when they aren't. And to their eyes, you are the troll.