A general discussion on Isaiah Thomas

#1
After watching the game last night, I was very eager to see how IT would be graded. Was hoping Brick would do the honors, but it was one of his comnpadres. IT got a pretty good grade esp. for the 3rd and 4th quarter runs where he was instrumental.

Many others had positive comments about IT. And why not? He led the team in scoring. Shot almost 50% from the field. And was really the only Kings player who could create on his own. Moreover, the terrible night for Vasquez made IT look that much better.

I have different opinion. IT represents everything that is WRONG with the Kings. And last night was a great example.

1. The only time the Kings offense looked good was in that first quarter. It looked like actual good basketball. Ball moving. High percentage shots. The Hawks defense stiffened, and then we were back to the regular Kings offense. Which is a mess.

2. It amuses me when the Kings announcers say "unselfish pass." When they utter that phrase, what they actually mean is "the kind of pass that should occur in normal good basketball." But because selfish play is so endemic to the Kings, it's like they have to point out a normal pass as "unselfish." It's embarrassing.

3. Now specifically to IT--he has two modes: 1) float around and do nothing but ask for the ball, disappear, and then jack up an outside shot at the earliest opportunity. 2) take over the ball, pound it into the ground, and without fail take the shot. Pure one-on-one ball. It's like every possession is the Laker's last possession with Kobe handling the rock and the game on the line. Kobe is going to take the shot. So is IT.

4. When IT takes over, what is the offense that the Kings are running? There is no offense. Imagine you were playing with IT, what would you do? Get out of the way and maneuver for a rebound? Do you think anyone on the floor with IT thinks that IT makes them better? That's IT's fundamental flaw. He makes no one else better. And frankly due to his lack of utilization of his teammates, makes them worse.

5. BUT, because the rest of the Kings are so mediocre, you are tempted to think that IT jacking is the best option. Is that a longterm plan for development and rebuilding?

6. You would think for as quick as IT is, and how easily he can break down a defender he would just fall into assists all over the place. He doesn't. Compare him to Teague. Remember how Teague was both getting his own and setting up his teammates, and making great interior passes? And has great awareness also finding teammates on the 3 point line as he drove in? Do you see that with IT? Not at all. Teague only scored, what, 18 points, but he absolutely dominated the game. I think it is very superficial take to say that IT even did half as well as Teague. Teague makes his teammates better.

7. Haven't you all been through this before? You recently had an elite scorer, who may be the best guy in the NBA when it comes to getting to the rim. Reke. But was he a player that made other players better? What happened when he tried to adapt to the flow of an offense and involving others? Didn't work out so well. But now suddenly IT is the answer? Or an answer? An answer to what?

8. You can't be a winning club without being a winning team. IT does not contribute to the team concept. He's the kind of player that is extremely useful in certain doses. But as he is, he can only take you so far in terms of winning and in terms of the development of the team. He's that good poker hand that leaves you shaking your head as you watch your chips exit your pile. "I thought he was a winning hand." But he wasn't. So close.

9. Think of it another way. What good team would want IT? How would they use him? "But Mav, if he was on a good team, he wouldn't be so selfish and jack so much. He would be effective at setting his teammates up." Really? You think so?

10. With all this hate, I need to include a little love. He plays with energy and passion. To his credit. He brings excitement. He is indeed a real talent when it comes to scoring. He is what he is, and I can't blame him for that. It's just a question of how the Kings are going to use him, and if and how he will develop.
 
#2
These ten points could easily be summarized in two: 1) IT is a pretty good score-first point guard, 2) IT's score-first mentality leads to ball-stopping.

As a second-unit offensive sparkplug, I have very few complaints about IT. I think there are major, MAJOR problems if you put him in the starting unit as you end up with Cousins not getting his touches in the post.

I do have big problems with IT's inconsistent effort defensively. His defensive effort is much higher when he is going up against Curry, Paul, Rose, or Irving, and then disappears against second or third-tier competition. Anyone remember how Mario effing Chalmers had a career night against IT? Yeah. But put him in against top-level talent or in a game with a big deficit, and suddenly the effort is all there.

 
#4
Of all the guys who played last night, you write a negative post on IT? That's just weird.
Yes, after last night is the PERFECT time to bring up IT's shortcomings. Because you saw him at his best. And I'm saying that IT, even at his best, is not a formula for winning basketball. He's not someone you can build around, and a ball stopper like him (non-starter would be more accurate than stopper, you actually have to receive a pass to be a stopper) is not going to create a culture of good basketball.

Funny thing is, I don't think most Kings fans can actually see this. I understand. An analogy would be the battered wife. When someone half-nice comes along, you think he's a lot better than he actually is.

Simple question for those of you who play ball: would YOU like to play with IT? I've played with guys like IT. They are horrible to play with.
 
#5
If the first unit plays better and more consistently we wouldn't be playing IT as much. Problem solved. How to get the first unit to play better - take out Thornton and play Mbah a Moute. Unfortunately Thornton has a play-me-or-trade-me salary and Luc has a bad knee.
 
#6
You can't bash him for bringing us back into the game, but at the same time he needs to improve in regards to eliminating that tunnel vision that plagues him most of the time. Same goes with Thornton. But, at the same time that makes them who they are. Isaiah and Thornton are quintessential gunslingers on par with Jamal Crawford where once they get going, you're just not stopping them.
 
#7
I was thinking about the cowbell podcast where they were talking about how Crawford told his coach that he doesn't play defense. He is what he is. He brings offense and that's it. IT expends so much energy on offense, no wonder he has to take a break playing defense. Jimmer was the same way in college. Defense was the time to rest the legs.
 
#8
I was thinking about the cowbell podcast where they were talking about how Crawford told his coach that he doesn't play defense. He is what he is. He brings offense and that's it. IT expends so much energy on offense, no wonder he has to take a break playing defense. Jimmer was the same way in college. Defense was the time to rest the legs.
Not sure how this circled back to Jimmer, but thank you for bringing up Crawford. As great a scorer as Crawford is, and he's amazing, he's been a journeyman player. He doesn't bring enough to the game to where a team feels he is irreplaceable.

The Kings are so devoid of talent that a straight scorer like IT has to play a ton of minutes, despite his deficiencies. Even still, he's coming off the bench. IT is what he is and that is fine. We just need more. We need Vasquez to live up to his play from last year.
 
#9
If the first unit plays better and more consistently we wouldn't be playing IT as much. Problem solved. How to get the first unit to play better - take out Thornton and play Mbah a Moute. Unfortunately Thornton has a play-me-or-trade-me salary and Luc has a bad knee.
Does anyone know what Thornton did before he came to the Kings, to actually earn the rights to this kind of salary? I didn't know anything about him before. I'm really curious
 
#11
ah yes, criticisms of other guard from a Jimmer fan are invalid....I'm actually a fairly open-minded Jimmer fan. And I'm already on record explaining how Jimmer is redundant to IT's role. IT has shown himself to be a better spark plug, but I think Jimmer could be better at involving others (theoretically). But we all know Jimmer is dead in Sacramento...so who cares. The above points about IT are assuming a world where Jimmer does not even exist.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#12
Does anyone know what Thornton did before he came to the Kings, to actually earn the rights to this kind of salary? I didn't know anything about him before. I'm really curious
Thornton had a run of about fifteen games during his rookie season in New Orleans, where he got really hot while Chris Paul was injured. And then, in his sophomore season, he got traded here, and had a run of about fifteen games where he got really hot while Tyreke Evans was injured. That was, basically, the sum total of why he got that contract.
 
#14
Thornton had a run of about fifteen games during his rookie season in New Orleans, where he got really hot while Chris Paul was injured. And then, in his sophomore season, he got traded here, and had a run of about fifteen games where he got really hot while Tyreke Evans was injured. That was, basically, the sum total of why he got that contract.
Spot on.

He has flashed the offensive brilliance a few times a year over the last two years, but the inconsistency and lack of defense have really hurt.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#15
Maverick - Perhaps the title of the thread should have been Discussion of Isaiah Thomas by a Mavericks/Jimmer fan?

You make some salient points, but your POV will forever be different than most of ours. It can lead to interesting discussions but it can also lead to ruffled feathers and a defensive attitude about us and ours kicking in, just as anyone who went to a Mavs board and started picking apart one of your players would undoubtedly run into.

I don't think IT is a future HOF point, but I also don't think he's as bad as you're painting him. The truth is somewhere in between. Right now, we're grateful for all he brings with the full realization he's not the perfect solution.
 
#16
NBA ranks:

-8th in PER at 27.8
-8th in FTA at 32
-7th in FT made at 28
-8th in FT% at 88%
-18th in PPG at 20.8
-19th in AST% at 32.2
-14th in WS/48 at .264
-14th in WS at 0.7
14th in ORtg at 127.8

.658 TS%
.568 eFG%

If these were Steph Curry's numbers, would they be acceptable as a #2 option to Cousins? Irving? Rose? According to most of you because he's "little Isaiah Thomas", and he's "selfish" he has no chance of working with DeMarcus Cousins game.

I don't expect these numbers to last at all as sample size and all that. But heck, we have an obvious problem of not having a consistent scoring threat around DeMarcus. So why wouldn't we at least TRY and play him with the guy who put up the above stats?
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#17
NBA ranks:

-8th in PER at 27.8
-8th in FTA at 32
-7th in FT made at 28
-8th in FT% at 88%
-18th in PPG at 20.8
-19th in AST% at 32.2
-14th in WS/48 at .264
-14th in WS at 0.7
14th in ORtg at 127.8

.658 TS%
.568 eFG%

If these were Steph Curry's numbers, would they be acceptable as a #2 option to Cousins? Irving? Rose? According to most of you because he's "little Isaiah Thomas", and he's "selfish" he has no chance of working with DeMarcus Cousins game.

I don't expect these numbers to last at all as sample size and all that. But heck, we have an obvious problem of not having a consistent scoring threat around DeMarcus. So why wouldn't we at least TRY and play him with the guy who put up the above stats?
I get your point but I think in the long run, Ben is going to be the man that helps Cuz. IT is great as a 6th man and I'd hate to spoil that when there are other solutions to getting Cuz some maneuvering room.
 
S

storisaurus

Guest
#18
In order to play like IT and win a lot of games, you better be Kobe Bryant. Kobe shoots a lot, this we know. However, he was also dominant defensively and drew double teams constantly in the post.

IT is a GREAT 6th man and there is no shame in that.
 
#20
NBA ranks:

-8th in PER at 27.8
-8th in FTA at 32
-7th in FT made at 28
-8th in FT% at 88%
-18th in PPG at 20.8
-19th in AST% at 32.2
-14th in WS/48 at .264
-14th in WS at 0.7
14th in ORtg at 127.8

.658 TS%
.568 eFG%

If these were Steph Curry's numbers, would they be acceptable as a #2 option to Cousins? Irving? Rose? According to most of you because he's "little Isaiah Thomas", and he's "selfish" he has no chance of working with DeMarcus Cousins game.

I don't expect these numbers to last at all as sample size and all that. But heck, we have an obvious problem of not having a consistent scoring threat around DeMarcus. So why wouldn't we at least TRY and play him with the guy who put up the above stats?
"why wouldn't we...?" i'd say 4 games is simply too small of a sample size, both for the stats you provide and for greivis vasquez's poor play. it makes much more sense to ride out vasquez's early difficulties because, in theory, a starting combo of vasquez/mclemore/cousins has a worthwhile future in the nba, whereas isaiah thomas is likely best-suited to a sixth man role, where he doesn't have to regularly defer to the teammates he's substituted into the game with. we know exactly what isaiah thomas brings: energy and scoring. we don't yet know whether or not vasquez can perform his way into the kings' longterm plans. but clearly he's the most capable king at delivering the ball to DMC in the post, and clearly he's the best option to hit ben mclemore for perimeter shots, given that mac will eventually transition into the starting SG position. the long term prospects of this team are infinitely more important than any short term gains you could get out of throwing thomas back into the starting lineup...
 
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#21
No team wants to let Cousins get the ball on the block. There needs to be more complexity to the offense than that. If the Kings had Chris Paul, how much better would they be (MT/Salmons/Patterson/Cousins)? I'm not sure what the answer is.
 
#22
I think the OP is pretty correct. IT's play is best suited to 4-6 minute stretches to give us a spark. Unfortunately since we are getting so little from anyone not name Cuz or M16, he is playing 30+ minutes a game like this and it eventually kills the offense once he cools off. You could argue we would be in a place to win had he not done that, and you would be correct, but at the same time we can't coach games based on IT turning enfuego and keeping that going for an entire quarter.
 
C

Cold

Guest
#23
NBA ranks:

-8th in PER at 27.8
-8th in FTA at 32
-7th in FT made at 28
-8th in FT% at 88%
-18th in PPG at 20.8
-19th in AST% at 32.2
-14th in WS/48 at .264
-14th in WS at 0.7
14th in ORtg at 127.8

.658 TS%
.568 eFG%

If these were Steph Curry's numbers, would they be acceptable as a #2 option to Cousins? Irving? Rose? According to most of you because he's "little Isaiah Thomas", and he's "selfish" he has no chance of working with DeMarcus Cousins game.

I don't expect these numbers to last at all as sample size and all that. But heck, we have an obvious problem of not having a consistent scoring threat around DeMarcus. So why wouldn't we at least TRY and play him with the guy who put up the above stats?
Those are 1st option numbers. They are not sustainable for IT. But even if he does... 2 problems.
Steph Curry is a wash on defense (defensive RAPM), while guarding starters.
Make IT guard opposing starters and he's a huge liability on that end of the court.
 
#24
Yes, after last night is the PERFECT time to bring up IT's shortcomings. Because you saw him at his best. And I'm saying that IT, even at his best, is not a formula for winning basketball. He's not someone you can build around, and a ball stopper like him (non-starter would be more accurate than stopper, you actually have to receive a pass to be a stopper) is not going to create a culture of good basketball.

Funny thing is, I don't think most Kings fans can actually see this. I understand. An analogy would be the battered wife. When someone half-nice comes along, you think he's a lot better than he actually is.

Simple question for those of you who play ball: would YOU like to play with IT? I've played with guys like IT. They are horrible to play with.
I cringe every time he has a big scoring game. It just encourages his style of ball, which, let's face it, loses a lot of games.

His refusal to make obvious passes on the break to mclemore causes me to yell at the tv every time. I just don't care how many points he scores.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#26
Essentially nothing. He turned 3 good weeks into a big franchise crippling contract.
I just looked up MT's salary info. I didn't realize he was making that much. Gifts from the Maloofs just keep on giving...

P.S. Hadn't used that site for salary info before. Does anybody know anything about it?
 
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#27
His refusal to make obvious passes on the break to mclemore causes me to yell at the tv every time. I just don't care how many points he scores.
This is me as well. The only player that IT willingly passes the ball to is Thompson. I have no idea what is going on there. IT consistently looks at a wide open Mclemore, then turns and gives the ball to Thompson. I wish he understood that the more of a threat Mclemore is to score, the easier the game gets for everyone, including IT. It opens up the whole court. But it doesn't work if the other team knows that IT is never going to pass the ball to him.
 
#28
So far all the games that IT got hot, we always lost that game.
Seems like when IT is hot, he just can't spread the heat to his teammates.

While in game 1, Vasquez came in aggressive and DMC rolled in as well.
Coincidence or not, I think IT needs to learn to spread the heat when he's on fire.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#29
I cringe every time he has a big scoring game. It just encourages his style of ball, which, let's face it, loses a lot of games.

His refusal to make obvious passes on the break to mclemore causes me to yell at the tv every time. I just don't care how many points he scores.
We have something in common. ;)
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#30
So far all the games that IT got hot, we always lost that game.
Seems like when IT is hot, he just can't spread the heat to his teammates.

While in game 1, Vasquez came in aggressive and DMC rolled in as well.
Coincidence or not, I think IT needs to learn to spread the heat when he's on fire.
Is it possible to change a mind set? If he could make the change to occasionally look for a pass to a teammate he would be a great PG for us. I don't think he understands that despite his stat filling input, he is not helping as much as a bunch of us would like. His play is fine unless we have another scorer on the floor and right now we have Ben.