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#1
I had a thought -- and this is the kind of thing I probably should just keep to myself, but I guess I'm in a "giving" mood today -- what if the players themselves are leading the tank this season?



What is this blasphemy you say? Hear me out...

(1) The main guys are all under contract already for multiple years so their futures are secure.

(2) Losing helps get rid of Luke Walton sooner.

(3) Fox and Haliburton both wanted to play for Sacramento coming out of college because of the challenge and opportunity and both are avid 2K fans so I think roster-building is a part of their makeup.

(4) When are they ever going to play a full season in empty arenas again? If ever there were a season where losses don't matter, this is the one.

(5) Lebron, DWade, and Chris Bosh formed the Big3 in 2010 officially kickstarting the era of the player-driven super team. These were uncharted waters for most of us who grew up in earlier eras but Fox and Haliburton were 12 and 10 respectively at that time. The biggest NBA stars in the world teaming up to win together was right in the middle of their formative early teenage years. The owners tried to clamp down on these shenanigans with harsher cap rules and the lure of supermax contracts for elite players but isn't it possible that the draft itself is how forward-thinking players will form super teams now?

If you're Fox and Haliburton and you survey the NBA landscape and see who's currently competing for a championship there's Lebron and AD in LA, Kyrie/KD/TheBeard in Brooklyn, PG and The Claw in other LA, and maybe we can throw Philly in there since they're first in the East right now -- how tempting would it be to play just poorly enough to lose right now and end up with that all-important third star to add to the mix next season? Not only are all of these players contenders because they play together, but all of them started their careers putting up numbers on terrible teams whose front offices did them no favors. There's a clear takeaway here -- if you want to win, you need to take matters into your own hands.

I'm not saying that is what's happening but I am saying if that's what's happening, I'm not mad about it.
 
#2
I had a thought -- and this is the kind of thing I probably should just keep to myself, but I guess I'm in a "giving" mood today -- what if the players themselves are leading the tank this season?



What is this blasphemy you say? Hear me out...

(1) The main guys are all under contract already for multiple years so their futures are secure.

(2) Losing helps get rid of Luke Walton sooner.

(3) Fox and Haliburton both wanted to play for Sacramento coming out of college because of the challenge and opportunity and both are avid 2K fans so I think roster-building is a part of their makeup.

(4) When are they ever going to play a full season in empty arenas again? If ever there were a season where losses don't matter, this is the one.

(5) Lebron, DWade, and Chris Bosh formed the Big3 in 2010 officially kickstarting the era of the player-driven super team. These were uncharted waters for most of us who grew up in earlier eras but Fox and Haliburton were 12 and 10 respectively at that time. The biggest NBA stars in the world teaming up to win together was right in the middle of their formative early teenage years. The owners tried to clamp down on these shenanigans with harsher cap rules and the lure of supermax contracts for elite players but isn't it possible that the draft itself is how forward-thinking players will form super teams now?

If you're Fox and Haliburton and you survey the NBA landscape and see who's currently competing for a championship there's Lebron and AD in LA, Kyrie/KD/TheBeard in Brooklyn, PG and The Claw in other LA, and maybe we can throw Philly in there since they're first in the East right now -- how tempting would it be to play just poorly enough to lose right now and end up with that all-important third star to add to the mix next season? Not only are all of these players contenders because they play together, but all of them started their careers putting up numbers on terrible teams whose front offices did them no favors. There's a clear takeaway here -- if you want to win, you need to take matters into your own hands.

I'm not saying that is what's happening but I am saying if that's what's happening, I'm not mad about it.
The only thing I’ll say in response is, I just don’t believe Swipa and Hali could actually bring themselves to tank purposely. They are too competitive and hate losing far too much.

I get the idea of thinking down the road, but competitors tend to live in the moment. They typically believe they can win now even when they can’t.

In short, competitiveness and the hatred of losing isn’t something that can be turned on and off like a tv or radio.
 
#3
The only thing I’ll say in response is, I just don’t believe Swipa and Hali could actually bring themselves to tank purposely. They are too competitive and hate losing far too much.

I get the idea of thinking down the road, but competitors tend to live in the moment. They typically believe they can win now even when they can’t.

In short, competitiveness and the hatred of losing isn’t something that can be turned on and off like a tv or radio.
I hear you. As a rule, elite professional athletes are hyper-competitive. That's what got them where they are and that's also why the idea hasn't really caught on yet. Generally it's been GMs forcing their teams to tank and players reluctantly going along for the ride or demanding a trade out of there if they can't deal with it. But I also feel like this generation is just different in terms of how they think about things. And if you take a step back and see that you don't have the talent to win right now and the coach is somewhere between clueless and way out of his depth and, furthermore, that losing in this situation isn't a direct reflection on you as a person... in that context losing now to win big later starts to make a lot of sense. And maybe even the allure of beating the system at its own game is itself a new way to compete? To wag the dog without the dog realizing it's being wagged so to speak, isn't that the ultimate win for the "outside the box" thinker?
 
#4
I had a thought -- and this is the kind of thing I probably should just keep to myself, but I guess I'm in a "giving" mood today -- what if the players themselves are leading the tank this season?



What is this blasphemy you say? Hear me out...

(1) The main guys are all under contract already for multiple years so their futures are secure.

(2) Losing helps get rid of Luke Walton sooner.

(3) Fox and Haliburton both wanted to play for Sacramento coming out of college because of the challenge and opportunity and both are avid 2K fans so I think roster-building is a part of their makeup.

(4) When are they ever going to play a full season in empty arenas again? If ever there were a season where losses don't matter, this is the one.

(5) Lebron, DWade, and Chris Bosh formed the Big3 in 2010 officially kickstarting the era of the player-driven super team. These were uncharted waters for most of us who grew up in earlier eras but Fox and Haliburton were 12 and 10 respectively at that time. The biggest NBA stars in the world teaming up to win together was right in the middle of their formative early teenage years. The owners tried to clamp down on these shenanigans with harsher cap rules and the lure of supermax contracts for elite players but isn't it possible that the draft itself is how forward-thinking players will form super teams now?

If you're Fox and Haliburton and you survey the NBA landscape and see who's currently competing for a championship there's Lebron and AD in LA, Kyrie/KD/TheBeard in Brooklyn, PG and The Claw in other LA, and maybe we can throw Philly in there since they're first in the East right now -- how tempting would it be to play just poorly enough to lose right now and end up with that all-important third star to add to the mix next season? Not only are all of these players contenders because they play together, but all of them started their careers putting up numbers on terrible teams whose front offices did them no favors. There's a clear takeaway here -- if you want to win, you need to take matters into your own hands.

I'm not saying that is what's happening but I am saying if that's what's happening, I'm not mad about it.
The only contender mentioned with homegrown talent is Philly. Which was brought about by Philly GM Sam Hinkie utilizing "The Process."

So what you are suggesting is that the players are running their own "Process" to bring in Super Star draft talent...............I like it:)..................................................................Bring it on Fellas!
 
#5
Well this does explain that blown layup near the end of the game by fox. No way he doesn’t miss that layup on purpose. He is co-leading the tank. :p
 
#7
The only contender mentioned with homegrown talent is Philly. Which was brought about by Philly GM Sam Hinkie utilizing "The Process."
It’s noteworthy to mention, again, that “the process” — which involved years of tanking at a ridiculous level — has produced (in the words of the late great Matt Foley errr Chris Farley):

1615962181955.jpg

I think the phrase should be changed to “Flush the process”.
 
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#9
It’s noteworthy to mention, again, that “the process” — which involved years of tanking at a ridiculous level — has produced (in the words of the late great Matt Foley errr Chris Farley):

View attachment 10478

I think the phrase should be changed to “Flush the process”.
Philly is 1st in the East with the talent they acquired while tanking. Sure they don't have a championship but they have playoff berths and will be a playoff team for quite some time with those guys.

Many Kings fans prided themselves on the fact that the Kings would never stoop so low. We sucked during those years as well, just not as bad as Philly. Fast forward many years and here we are in the exact same position, while Philly is 1st in their conference.

Give me the process please.
 
#10
Philly is 1st in the East with the talent they acquired while tanking. Sure they don't have a championship but they have playoff berths and will be a playoff team for quite some time with those guys.

Many Kings fans prided themselves on the fact that the Kings would never stoop so low. We sucked during those years as well, just not as bad as Philly. Fast forward many years and here we are in the exact same position, while Philly is 1st in their conference.

Give me the process please.
Catch-22. Fan apathy is probably at a all time high for the Kings. If they started the process would anyone of right mind TRUST that they would carry through? Just look at Kings forum sites, not just this one. The players aren't the only ones tuned out.

Vivek's stewardship over the organization has been unstable and that is being kind.
 
#13
Philly is 1st in the East with the talent they acquired while tanking. Sure they don't have a championship but they have playoff berths and will be a playoff team for quite some time with those guys.

Many Kings fans prided themselves on the fact that the Kings would never stoop so low. We sucked during those years as well, just not as bad as Philly. Fast forward many years and here we are in the exact same position, while Philly is 1st in their conference.

Give me the process please.
I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be where Philly is because I would. But I would rather have been the Blazers during the same time period and both teams are more or less the same level. Conference finals being their probably ceiling, though I could see Philly losing the NBA Finals.

Our biggest problem has been FO dysfunction. I hope that Monte is the guy that finally gives us a vision that is allowed to be seen all the way through. The Maloofs seemed intent on destroying the franchise as a get out of Sacramento plan, Vivek brought in the two idiots, and the dramatically overcompensated for that with the inexperienced Vlade. It seems he has acknowledged that he screwed up and had it wrong so I'm just crossing my fingers that its true.

As for Fox in on a tank, I'm not sure. It seems Fox is the only thing keeping these games close.
 
#14
I'm not saying I wouldn't rather be where Philly is because I would. But I would rather have been the Blazers during the same time period and both teams are more or less the same level. Conference finals being their probably ceiling, though I could see Philly losing the NBA Finals.

Our biggest problem has been FO dysfunction. I hope that Monte is the guy that finally gives us a vision that is allowed to be seen all the way through. The Maloofs seemed intent on destroying the franchise as a get out of Sacramento plan, Vivek brought in the two idiots, and the dramatically overcompensated for that with the inexperienced Vlade. It seems he has acknowledged that he screwed up and had it wrong so I'm just crossing my fingers that its true.

As for Fox in on a tank, I'm not sure. It seems Fox is the only thing keeping these games close.
Close is the operative word though!

We've seen some very interesting 4th quarter decision-making from everyone on the team and more than a few winnable games devolve into barely controlled chaos. I wrote that out partly in jest, obviously, but given what we've seen since the defense completely went to pieces and they stopped winning games in early February or so, it's one possible theory that does explain the evidence. Losing or shaving points intentionally to help cover the spread is deplorable behavior I would never endorse but losing to get better draft odds has become normalized in every major league by now. We excuse executives when they do it, why not players? It's also just a fun hypothetical to imagine the players themselves taking control of their own NBA future.
 
#15
Philly is 1st in the East with the talent they acquired while tanking. Sure they don't have a championship but they have playoff berths and will be a playoff team for quite some time with those guys.

Many Kings fans prided themselves on the fact that the Kings would never stoop so low. We sucked during those years as well, just not as bad as Philly. Fast forward many years and here we are in the exact same position, while Philly is 1st in their conference.

Give me the process please.

A starving person believes a saltine cracker is the greatest food ever. You’re just a starved fan. And a very disillusioned one.

I just knew someone was gonna go here.
How rich of you (and laughable) to tout the fact that they are “in first place” at the time of this posting.

If you’re going to tank for years with crap rosters as Philly did — it better result in A LOT more than 1 first round and 2 second round playoff exits. And just being positioned in 1st place for a short while — in the East no less. We both know this season is going to end just like the past few. They’ve never even sniffed winning 60 games yet.

And you somehow foolishly believe that end justifies the means. Give me a small break.

Utah has accomplished pretty much the same as Philly. Yet didn’t have to stoop to “the process”.

I’m a starved KINGS fan too. But in no way want to see the franchise roll out “B” level actors for numerous seasons just for the privilege of possibly being a playoff team. There better be several pots of gold at the end of that rainbow to even consider it.

Sorry, there is a right way to do things and a lot of wrong ways. What Philly did is one of the wrong ways. It lacks integrity. It’s also theft. Unless they somehow stop charging $$$ to attend the games under those circumstances.

Again I say, you are a low bar fan. I’m not. “The process” hasn’t come close to returning on it’s investment. It wasn‘t worth the depths they stooped to. Period, end of story.
 
#16
A starving person believes a saltine cracker is the greatest food ever. You’re just a starved fan. And a very disillusioned one.

I just knew someone was gonna go here.
How rich of you (and laughable) to tout the fact that they are “in first place” at the time of this posting.

If you’re going to tank for years with crap rosters as Philly did — it better result in A LOT more than 1 first round and 2 second round playoff exits. And just being positioned in 1st place for a short while — in the East no less. We both know this season is going to end just like the past few. They’ve never even sniffed winning 60 games yet.

And you somehow foolishly believe that end justifies the means. Give me a small break.

Utah has accomplished pretty much the same as Philly. Yet didn’t have to stoop to “the process”.

I’m a starved KINGS fan too. But in no way want to see the franchise roll out “B” level actors for numerous seasons just for the privilege of possibly being a playoff team. There better be several pots of gold at the end of that rainbow to even consider it.

Sorry, there is a right way to do things and a lot of wrong ways. What Philly did is one of the wrong ways. It lacks integrity. It’s also theft. Unless they somehow stop charging $$$ to attend the games under those circumstances.

Again I say, you are a low bar fan. I’m not. “The process” hasn’t come close to returning on it’s investment. It wasn‘t worth the depths they stooped to. Period, end of story.
Whether you agree with the "process" or not doesn't determine if you are a "low bar fan" whatever that means.

And no, I am not a fan of the "process" as it happened in Philly. Strategic short term moves during any given year to improve long-term outlooks from a lost year different story.
 
#17
A starving person believes a saltine cracker is the greatest food ever. You’re just a starved fan. And a very disillusioned one.

I just knew someone was gonna go here.
How rich of you (and laughable) to tout the fact that they are “in first place” at the time of this posting.

If you’re going to tank for years with crap rosters as Philly did — it better result in A LOT more than 1 first round and 2 second round playoff exits. And just being positioned in 1st place for a short while — in the East no less. We both know this season is going to end just like the past few. They’ve never even sniffed winning 60 games yet.

And you somehow foolishly believe that end justifies the means. Give me a small break.

Utah has accomplished pretty much the same as Philly. Yet didn’t have to stoop to “the process”.

I’m a starved KINGS fan too. But in no way want to see the franchise roll out “B” level actors for numerous seasons just for the privilege of possibly being a playoff team. There better be several pots of gold at the end of that rainbow to even consider it.

Sorry, there is a right way to do things and a lot of wrong ways. What Philly did is one of the wrong ways. It lacks integrity. It’s also theft. Unless they somehow stop charging $$$ to attend the games under those circumstances.

Again I say, you are a low bar fan. I’m not. “The process” hasn’t come close to returning on it’s investment. It wasn‘t worth the depths they stooped to. Period, end of story.
Thanks for reminding me of Utah.

I agree - I was totally all in for a tank this season when no season ticket holders would be screwed over. But the process is just a mf'ing insult to anyone who commits money or time to their team. And they also missed just as often if not more than they hit. Hell even at the end of the process they blew the finishing touch in the majorist of ways by trading up for the right to blow the pick. They better have 3 or more championships by the time Embiid and Simmons are gone to justify what they did and that seems unimaginable to me unless they hit a massive grand slam deal the way Boston did when they built the Big 3.
 
#18
Whether you agree with the "process" or not doesn't determine if you are a "low bar fan" whatever that means.
If you don’t know what it means, then how can you possibly comment on whether it determines anything?

You know exactly what it means. So stop with the kiddie games.

Secondly, yes, if you somehow believe Philly’s accomplishments or lack there of justifies what they did— you have a very low bar.

Now I’ve said it twice.
 
#19
Thanks for reminding me of Utah.

I agree - I was totally all in for a tank this season when no season ticket holders would be screwed over. But the process is just a mf'ing insult to anyone who commits money or time to their team. And they also missed just as often if not more than they hit. Hell even at the end of the process they blew the finishing touch in the majorist of ways by trading up for the right to blow the pick. They better have 3 or more championships by the time Embiid and Simmons are gone to justify what they did and that seems unimaginable to me unless they hit a massive grand slam deal the way Boston did when they built the Big 3.
Exactly right.

There are some seriously disillusioned, low bar fans on this site. I hope none of them play the stock market.

Unless it results in a dynasty or at least a few titles, it’s an epic fail. The fans that were robbed deserve at least that. But the game of basketball is still lesser for it regardless.
 
#20
A starving person believes a saltine cracker is the greatest food ever. You’re just a starved fan. And a very disillusioned one.

I just knew someone was gonna go here.
How rich of you (and laughable) to tout the fact that they are “in first place” at the time of this posting.

If you’re going to tank for years with crap rosters as Philly did — it better result in A LOT more than 1 first round and 2 second round playoff exits. And just being positioned in 1st place for a short while — in the East no less. We both know this season is going to end just like the past few. They’ve never even sniffed winning 60 games yet.

And you somehow foolishly believe that end justifies the means. Give me a small break.

Utah has accomplished pretty much the same as Philly. Yet didn’t have to stoop to “the process”.

I’m a starved KINGS fan too. But in no way want to see the franchise roll out “B” level actors for numerous seasons just for the privilege of possibly being a playoff team. There better be several pots of gold at the end of that rainbow to even consider it.

Sorry, there is a right way to do things and a lot of wrong ways. What Philly did is one of the wrong ways. It lacks integrity. It’s also theft. Unless they somehow stop charging $$$ to attend the games under those circumstances.

Again I say, you are a low bar fan. I’m not. “The process” hasn’t come close to returning on it’s investment. It wasn‘t worth the depths they stooped to. Period, end of story.
Wow. Can we have a conversation without getting overly emotional and personal? We can just agree to disagree without calling each other "low bar" fans.

You think of the Sixers 3 years of tanking as selling their souls while many of the rest of us don't. I don't look back at the Kings 2013-2016 seasons fondly. Maybe you do? If you cherish the extra 10 wins the Kings had during those 3 seasons, then that's great. I don't even know if I could remember 3 wins total during that time period. If someone told me they'd trade me Simmons and Embiid for less wins during 2013-2016 seasons, I'd take that in a heartbeat. You wouldn't. That's perfectly fine.

In the end you'll have your 2013-2016 pride while I would enjoy 3 straight playoff years, a first place team this year and numerous likely playoff berths in the future. If winning 28 games a year over 18 games a year is more important to you than all stars + the playoffs for years, then that's just your opinion. That doesn't make you a high bar fan and it doesn't make me a low bar fan. It means you hold a lot of pride in something that I don't feel is significant at all.
 
#21
If you don’t know what it means, then how can you possibly comment on whether it determines anything?

You know exactly what it means. So stop with the kiddie games.

Secondly, yes, if you somehow believe Philly’s accomplishments or lack there of justifies what they did— you have a very low bar.

Now I’ve said it twice.
Know what it means? I know what it implied but I would rather give someone the benefit of the doubt. But since you doubled down, obviously that benefit wasn't merited.

Since you used you twice, you would be hard pressed to find posts from me supporting the process. You will find posts favoring getting rid of vets now that the season is lost. But intentionally sabotaging multiple seasons before they even begin, no. I understand it, but no. This is getting in the territory of who is the "better" fan. Just different methods to the madness. Peace.
 
#22
Regardless of how we feel about the merits of the 76ers process and where it got them, we're sitting on 15 straight years of futility. I think the bigger picture point being made here is that we really can't look down our noses at anybody. I don't necessarily want that process -- trading everyone and everything for draft capital then sending out a team of G-Leaguers -- but I don't think a 10 win season is the worst thing in the world if you wake up 5 years later in first place. I'm pretty open to any kind of a process at all which isn't 30-ish wins and a pick in the second half of the lottery year after painful year.
 
#23
If you don’t know what it means, then how can you possibly comment on whether it determines anything?

You know exactly what it means. So stop with the kiddie games.

Secondly, yes, if you somehow believe Philly’s accomplishments or lack there of justifies what they did— you have a very low bar.

Now I’ve said it twice.
If I have a low bar does it mean I’m good at the Limbo???
 
#24
Regardless of how we feel about the merits of the 76ers process and where it got them, we're sitting on 15 straight years of futility. I think the bigger picture point being made here is that we really can't look down our noses at anybody. I don't necessarily want that process -- trading everyone and everything for draft capital then sending out a team of G-Leaguers -- but I don't think a 10 win season is the worst thing in the world if you wake up 5 years later in first place. I'm pretty open to any kind of a process at all which isn't 30-ish wins and a pick in the second half of the lottery year after painful year.
I hear you, but I'm fairly sure the Blazers have picked behind us every year since maybe 2008. The Warriors maybe once since 2009. Not sure about the Jazz. Our problem has been mostly FO related. And while nobody probably could have predicted Bagley's injuries, the chances of our highest pick in nearly 30 years having a happy ending is nearing 0.
 
#25
Regardless of how we feel about the merits of the 76ers process and where it got them, we're sitting on 15 straight years of futility. I think the bigger picture point being made here is that we really can't look down our noses at anybody. I don't necessarily want that process -- trading everyone and everything for draft capital then sending out a team of G-Leaguers -- but I don't think a 10 win season is the worst thing in the world if you wake up 5 years later in first place. I'm pretty open to any kind of a process at all which isn't 30-ish wins and a pick in the second half of the lottery year after painful year.
As @pdxKingsFan points out, the KINGS futility has nothing to do with it. You’re creating a strawman argument here.

Furthermore, the KINGS way of failing the past 15 years wasn’t at all tied to lack of integrity, morality, or the lack of trying to be competitive.

I’ll use baseball‘s steroid era as an example. Lots of players utilized shortcuts and immoral and/or illegal tactics to achieve greatness. Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were among the biggest names involved. None are in the hall of fame as of yet because of how their “shortcuts“ are widely viewed.

Hell, Barry Bonds (who I’m a fan of, strange I know) is technically the all-time HR king. But he isn’t viewed that way by the masses because of how it is perceived he achieved the feat.

I see “the process” in the exact same way. It’s a shortcut. A cheat. It’s damaging to the game. To the spirit of competition.

I mean, a kid that shaved points in a game can easily rationalize the action by saying “we still won”. But the vast majority — nongamblers btw — are greatly opposed and offended by the practice.

Because it lacks honor, integrity, moral fiber and isn’t what competition is all about.

So circling back to your comment on “looking down our noses at anybody” — yes we most certainly can. Those that do things the right way and in the spirit of competition — no matter how successful or unsuccessful — can always look down upon those that bend or break the rules and/or lack integrity, honor and are unwilling to put their best foot forward at all times. It’s called “moral high ground”.

If I was an average, unaccomplished MLB player that played by the rules during the steroid era, I most certainly would look down upon the shortcutters.

And as a lifelong fan of ALL the teams I root for — I’ll gladly accept suckatude over immoral and uncompetitive short cuts. See the Houston Astericks. And Philadelphia 76ers.

The Sixers org stole money from their fans for years while never intending to field competitive teams. If the KINGS ever did that to us, I’d never root for them again.

If they ever do go that route, the games better be FREE to attend. However when they charge — better yet ”overcharge” — for the entertainment they are selling, they better be trying to field the best product possible.

I’ll bet that 90% of the fans on this site championing “the process” aren’t season ticket holders and won’t be paying much if any money during ”the process”. They’ll just watch on TV and follow online. In other words, it’s doesn’t affect their bottom line at all.

But then those same short cutters are gonna suddenly want to flock to G1C the minute the KINGS are good again and compete for tickets against the fans that paid for that garbage all along.

That’s bushleague.

And let’s not forget about the player’s that actually have to play in these meaningless games the franchise doesn’t intend to win. At any moment they could suffer a debilitating or career ending injury — and for what??? Then there’s the competitive balance of the league greatly affected. Teams getting easy wins from teams not trying to win.

It’s all a joke. A very bad joke.

Might as well just let these sandbagging teams forfeit their entire season. There’d be far more honor and integrity in doing that.

I’ll conclude by quoting Greg Focker: “Listen to me when I say that I am FINISHED with the checking-of-the-bags CONVERSATION.”

OUT.
 
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#26
As @pdxKingsFan points out, the KINGS futility has nothing to do with it. You’re creating a strawman argument here.

Furthermore, the KINGS way of failing the past 15 years wasn’t at all tied to lack of integrity, morality, or the lack of trying to be competitive.

I’ll use baseball‘s steroid era as an example. Lots of players utilized shortcuts and immoral and/or illegal tactics to achieve greatness. Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were among the biggest names involved. None are in the hall of fame as of yet because of how their “shortcuts“ are widely viewed.

Hell, Barry Bonds (who I’m a fan of, strange I know) is technically the all-time HR king. But he isn’t viewed that way by the masses because of how it is perceived he achieved the feat.

I see “the process” in the exact same way. It’s a shortcut. A cheat. It’s damaging to the game. To the spirit of competition.

I mean, a kid that shaved points in a game can easily rationalize the action by saying “we still won”. But the vast majority — nongamblers btw — are greatly opposed and offended by the practice.

Because it lacks honor, integrity, moral fiber and isn’t what competition is all about.

So circling back to your comment on “looking down our noses at anybody” — yes we most certainly can. Those that do things the right way and in the spirit of competition — no matter how successful or unsuccessful — can always look down upon those that bend or break the rules and/or lack integrity, honor and are unwilling to put their best foot forward at all times. It’s called “moral high ground”.

If I was an average, unaccomplished MLB player that played by the rules during the steroid era, I most certainly would look down upon the shortcutters.

And as a lifelong fan of ALL the teams I root for — I’ll gladly accept suckatude over immoral and uncompetitive short cuts. See the Houston Astericks. And Philadelphia 76ers.

The Sixers org stole money from their fans for years while never intending to field competitive teams. If the KINGS ever did that to us, I’d never root for them again.

If they ever do go that route, the games better be FREE to attend. However when they charge — better yet ”overcharge” — for the entertainment they are selling, they better be trying to field the best product possible.

I’ll bet that 90% of the fans on this site championing “the process” aren’t season ticket holders and won’t be paying much if any money during ”the process”. They’ll just watch on TV and follow online. In other words, it’s doesn’t affect their bottom line at all.

But then those same short cutters are gonna suddenly want to flock to G1C the minute the KINGS are good again and compete for tickets against the fans that paid for that garbage all along.

That’s bushleague.

And let’s not forget about the player’s that actually have to play in these meaningless games the franchise doesn’t intend to win. At any moment they could suffer a debilitating or career ending injury — and for what??? Then there’s the competitive balance of the league greatly affected. Teams getting easy wins from teams not trying to win.

It’s all a joke. A very bad joke.

Might as well just let these sandbagging teams forfeit their entire season. There’d be far more honor and integrity in doing that.

I’ll conclude by quoting Greg Focker: “Listen to me when I say that I am FINISHED with the checking-of-the-bags CONVERSATION.”

OUT.
BRAVO!! Good and noble speech. I have made many of those same arguments where they apply to the organization and the paying customers, especially the paying customers. But I have come to realize I am no different other than the how extreme I am willing to go.

I would argue that the first moment that I or anyone is willing to trade vets or do anything to improve the draft odds, one has crossed to the other side. It might be a lighter shade of gray but gray it is.
 
#27
As @pdxKingsFan points out, the KINGS futility has nothing to do with it. You’re creating a strawman argument here.

Furthermore, the KINGS way of failing the past 15 years wasn’t at all tied to lack of integrity, morality, or the lack of trying to be competitive.

I’ll use baseball‘s steroid era as an example. Lots of players utilized shortcuts and immoral and/or illegal tactics to achieve greatness. Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were among the biggest names involved. None are in the hall of fame as of yet because of how their “shortcuts“ are widely viewed.

Hell, Barry Bonds (who I’m a fan of, strange I know) is technically the all-time HR king. But he isn’t viewed that way by the masses because of how it is perceived he achieved the feat.

I see “the process” in the exact same way. It’s a shortcut. A cheat. It’s damaging to the game. To the spirit of competition.

I mean, a kid that shaved points in a game can easily rationalize the action by saying “we still won”. But the vast majority — nongamblers btw — are greatly opposed and offended by the practice.

Because it lacks honor, integrity, moral fiber and isn’t what competition is all about.

So circling back to your comment on “looking down our noses at anybody” — yes we most certainly can. Those that do things the right way and in the spirit of competition — no matter how successful or unsuccessful — can always look down upon those that bend or break the rules and/or lack integrity, honor and are unwilling to put their best foot forward at all times. It’s called “moral high ground”.

If I was an average, unaccomplished MLB player that played by the rules during the steroid era, I most certainly would look down upon the shortcutters.

And as a lifelong fan of ALL the teams I root for — I’ll gladly accept suckatude over immoral and uncompetitive short cuts. See the Houston Astericks. And Philadelphia 76ers.

The Sixers org stole money from their fans for years while never intending to field competitive teams. If the KINGS ever did that to us, I’d never root for them again.

If they ever do go that route, the games better be FREE to attend. However when they charge — better yet ”overcharge” — for the entertainment they are selling, they better be trying to field the best product possible.

I’ll bet that 90% of the fans on this site championing “the process” aren’t season ticket holders and won’t be paying much if any money during ”the process”. They’ll just watch on TV and follow online. In other words, it’s doesn’t affect their bottom line at all.

But then those same short cutters are gonna suddenly want to flock to G1C the minute the KINGS are good again and compete for tickets against the fans that paid for that garbage all along.

That’s bushleague.

And let’s not forget about the player’s that actually have to play in these meaningless games the franchise doesn’t intend to win. At any moment they could suffer a debilitating or career ending injury — and for what??? Then there’s the competitive balance of the league greatly affected. Teams getting easy wins from teams not trying to win.

It’s all a joke. A very bad joke.

Might as well just let these sandbagging teams forfeit their entire season. There’d be far more honor and integrity in doing that.

I’ll conclude by quoting Greg Focker: “Listen to me when I say that I am FINISHED with the checking-of-the-bags CONVERSATION.”

OUT.
Is this satire? Can the Kings record of 351-649 in their last 1000 games really honor the spirit of competition and provide a high ground of morality to stand on?

It's ironic that that 1000 game stretch started off with a tank year led by the great Tank Commander Kenny Natt. So, I guess just one year of intentional tanking is cool. lol
 
#28
BRAVO!! Good and noble speech. I have made many of those same arguments where they apply to the organization and the paying customers, especially the paying customers. But I have come to realize I am no different other than the how extreme I am willing to go.

I would argue that the first moment that I or anyone is willing to trade vets or do anything to improve the draft odds, one has crossed to the other side. It might be a lighter shade of gray but gray it is.
We're all capable of not watching or not buying tickets. No one is forcing us to support the team in any manner so I don't know how this has developed into an argument about money. This franchise is the laughing stock of not only the NBA but in professional sports in general and we're worried about winning the morality championships over the real championships? This isn't selling your body for drugs. This is playing younger players for development and trading away pieces to possibly land future stars. It's smart basketball and we're looking at a team in the 76ers that did it and are in a much better situation than we are. It only took 1/3 of the season for most of us here to start checking out. Sixer fans get to enjoy the entire season + the playoffs. Apparently we should feel better because we can sleep at night knowing our franchise has more integrity.

Me personally, I file that under who gives a ****. Lets see some real success.
 
#29
We're all capable of not watching or not buying tickets. No one is forcing us to support the team in any manner so I don't know how this has developed into an argument about money. This franchise is the laughing stock of not only the NBA but in professional sports in general and we're worried about winning the morality championships over the real championships? This isn't selling your body for drugs. This is playing younger players for development and trading away pieces to possibly land future stars. It's smart basketball and we're looking at a team in the 76ers that did it and are in a much better situation than we are. It only took 1/3 of the season for most of us here to start checking out. Sixer fans get to enjoy the entire season + the playoffs. Apparently we should feel better because we can sleep at night knowing our franchise has more integrity.

Me personally, I file that under who gives a ****. Lets see some real success.
I am not certain why you are quoting me. I understand your position. I also see KingsFanSince85 position but came to the conclusion that I am no different than you or your position. I am all for trading the vets and playing the youth. While I could argue it's all about developing the youth and while that is true in part, I'm also hoping for better draft position. Tell me the difference other than the duration I am willing to go.

Don't even get me started on integrity. This ownership has none. What did they promise/sell the fans before the season started? What have they actually provided? Classic bait and switch.
 
#30
As @pdxKingsFan points out, the KINGS futility has nothing to do with it. You’re creating a strawman argument here.

Furthermore, the KINGS way of failing the past 15 years wasn’t at all tied to lack of integrity, morality, or the lack of trying to be competitive.

I’ll use baseball‘s steroid era as an example. Lots of players utilized shortcuts and immoral and/or illegal tactics to achieve greatness. Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were among the biggest names involved. None are in the hall of fame as of yet because of how their “shortcuts“ are widely viewed.

Hell, Barry Bonds (who I’m a fan of, strange I know) is technically the all-time HR king. But he isn’t viewed that way by the masses because of how it is perceived he achieved the feat.

I see “the process” in the exact same way. It’s a shortcut. A cheat. It’s damaging to the game. To the spirit of competition.

I mean, a kid that shaved points in a game can easily rationalize the action by saying “we still won”. But the vast majority — nongamblers btw — are greatly opposed and offended by the practice.

Because it lacks honor, integrity, moral fiber and isn’t what competition is all about.

So circling back to your comment on “looking down our noses at anybody” — yes we most certainly can. Those that do things the right way and in the spirit of competition — no matter how successful or unsuccessful — can always look down upon those that bend or break the rules and/or lack integrity, honor and are unwilling to put their best foot forward at all times. It’s called “moral high ground”.

If I was an average, unaccomplished MLB player that played by the rules during the steroid era, I most certainly would look down upon the shortcutters.

And as a lifelong fan of ALL the teams I root for — I’ll gladly accept suckatude over immoral and uncompetitive short cuts. See the Houston Astericks. And Philadelphia 76ers.

The Sixers org stole money from their fans for years while never intending to field competitive teams. If the KINGS ever did that to us, I’d never root for them again.

If they ever do go that route, the games better be FREE to attend. However when they charge — better yet ”overcharge” — for the entertainment they are selling, they better be trying to field the best product possible.

I’ll bet that 90% of the fans on this site championing “the process” aren’t season ticket holders and won’t be paying much if any money during ”the process”. They’ll just watch on TV and follow online. In other words, it’s doesn’t affect their bottom line at all.

But then those same short cutters are gonna suddenly want to flock to G1C the minute the KINGS are good again and compete for tickets against the fans that paid for that garbage all along.

That’s bushleague.

And let’s not forget about the player’s that actually have to play in these meaningless games the franchise doesn’t intend to win. At any moment they could suffer a debilitating or career ending injury — and for what??? Then there’s the competitive balance of the league greatly affected. Teams getting easy wins from teams not trying to win.

It’s all a joke. A very bad joke.

Might as well just let these sandbagging teams forfeit their entire season. There’d be far more honor and integrity in doing that.

I’ll conclude by quoting Greg Focker: “Listen to me when I say that I am FINISHED with the checking-of-the-bags CONVERSATION.”

OUT.
Wow, I have a completely different take on the steroid era than you do but I'll get to that later.

Is the strawman I'm creating here (in your estimation) in relation to your argument that what the 76ers did is bad for professional sports? Because I really don't see how our team's inept management has anything at all to do with that. Or rather we can both have different takes on that without one of them being a straw man. (Hey, who started this thread anyway? :cool:) @ESP47 made what I think is a good point that the 76ers, despite famously failing worse than anyone has ever failed before on purpose, are now in a better place than we are competitively because they failed for a reason. Just about every team in the league has been through at least 1 tear down and rebuild in the time we've been treading water. Do we have a better roster now than we did 5 years ago? 10 years ago? 15 years ago? I couldn't tell you. It's all part of the same general haze of broken promises.

So let's get into the Sixers for a minute. You claim that they robbed or cheated their fans but they were up front from the beginning about what their plan was. Basically they said "here's what we're going to do and it's going to take 3-5 years" so if you didn't want to watch a 10 win team that was your choice. Nobody was forced to pay to watch a terrible product. Those fans that did show up cheered the process (perhaps mockingly) and reveled in losing well (perhaps mockingly) the same way that many Kings fans do now. I think the key for most of us is that it we want some assurance that the team has a plan and they are progressing in a direction that might lead to being competitive. The shell game of trying to sell us all that we have a playoff caliber team now every. single. year. before (surprise!) pulling the rug out mid season yet again is infinitely worse from my point of view. I actually think what the Sixers did was very respectful for their fans because they told them they were going to suck. Everyone else pretends that they're trying whether they actually are or not.

As a fan I don't necessarily want the team to go all out for a championship every year. Yankees fans have been raised to expect that of their team and they've won exactly as many championships in the last 20 years (zero) as my Oakland A's. What I expect is that team is going to recognize when they have a window of opportunity and make smart moves to maximize it and then when those players get older, injured, too expensive whatever the case may be, management will spend the necessary resources to put together a new team and try again. The kind of sustained success the Spurs had in the Popovich era and the Patriots had in the Bellichek/Brady era is extremely rare. Most teams exist on a wave pattern and the best you can hope for is that they prolong the period of time when the wave is at it's zenith and minimize the period of time when it's at it's nadir.

So since we're already on the topic of baseball.... steroids. A dark period in the history of the game. Maybe some fans look back on that period as a time of rampant dishonesty and immorality and there was some of that to be sure. Especially in the early 2000s when the pressure to save face with media by enacting stricter testing and enforcement led some players to take extreme measures to keep their gravy train running. Having grown up in the peak of the steroid years, it's difficult for me to reconcile the fact that baseball as an organization has tried very hard to erase my formative memories from their record books. It's a poorly kept secret though that MLB has worked so hard to put the burden of responsibility on the players primarily because they won't admit that the problem started and ended with the commissioner's office giving them tacit permission to inject whatever they wanted so long as they did it behind closed doors and kept fans in the seats.

Let's talk about Barry Bonds -- baseball writers enemy no. 1. What did he do which was so much worse than everyone else? In my opinion, nothing. He took the same substances that a huge percentage of the league was taking. It could be 30%, could be 50%, could be even higher. The difference is he was already an elite player so getting bigger and stronger on top of his superhuman ability to see pitches and put the sweet spot of the bat on them led to 70 home runs instead of only 40-50. The issue of integrity for me when it comes to professional sports is that I expect players to give it their all within the confines of the rules. Get whatever competitive edge you can so long as it's not cheating. People who don't play sports have a bad habit of changing the rules all the time though and then holding players to standards which are never codified.

The Astros sign-stealing scandal is perhaps an even better example because I think most fans don't even realize what happened. The Astros made the same decision the 76ers made -- we're tired of being a non-entity in this sport so we're going to spare no expense and do whatever it takes to win -- and they cratered and lost like few teams have ever lost before but at the same time they invested in scouting and analytics experts, they beefed up their international presence, they drafted well and they traded well. All of this was within the rules of the game. When it eventually came out that they took their win-at-all-costs approach so far that they hid cameras in the outfield to relay signs in real time to the dugout, MLB fans were shocked and outraged but if you listen to what the players are saying, baseball knew about this for years and did nothing. Literally nothing. Is it against the rules if the league office knows about it and turns a blind eye? The only reason the Astros got punished at all is because 1 player got fed up and reported the whole thing to The Athletic and once again it was the media pressure which forced the commissioner's office to respond. Many of the players are more pissed off at Mike Fiers for breaking the athlete's code and ratting out his teammates than the Astros who cheated their way to a championship and were never punished for it.

Is there integrity in respecting the spirit of fair competition? Absolutely. From the point where performance enhancing substances were officially banned, those player who continued to take them gained a competitive advantage. But there's a pretty distinct difference in my mind between a player who engaged in potentially harmful behavior in the spirit of competition (taking steroids -- which lest we forget was pretty much the norm across all levels of sports in the 80s and 90s) and a player who willingly and intentionally broke the rules hoping to get an edge on their competitors and not get caught. Getting back to the 76ers, they didn't break any rules. The broke the accepted norms of professional sports but they did that to put together a winning team for their fans. And mores the point, they were very up front about exactly what they were doing. In response the league changed some rules, the GM was fired, the team got their public censure but do you think those fans are upset with the way they ended up with a winning team to root for? I don't. As a fan of a different team hell yeah I'm pissed off about it but only because it worked. If it hadn't worked we'd all still be laughing at them.