Ron Artest Top Player?

[dude12]

I don't want to derail this thread, but.....

Wade 10-15?

C'mon - he is top 3 in my book...ahead of Duncan, Howard and Garnett.

Hate to derail your post but given the opportunity to choose any of the above 4, I'm certain that most if not all GM's will take the big guy. Wade's shelf life could be shortened with the style of play he employs.

 

[ESP47]

The Kings were getting blown out by 15-20 points before Artest came back from his suspension. I think they are something like 9-11 since then. Where they were 2-6 without him. He's a game changer, plain and simple. Martin is a great scorer but he isn't worth anything near what Artest is.

 

[Entity]

The Kings were getting blown out by 15-20 points before Artest came back from his suspension. I think they are something like 9-11 since then. Where they were 2-6 without him. He's a game changer, plain and simple. Martin is a great scorer but he isn't worth anything near what Artest is.

Artest and Martin together (9 games) they are 5-4 and you have to figure in a transition phase in that with Ron coming back (1st game Minn loss). They beat teams that were figured at the time top 10 in the NBA. San Antonio, Detroit, Houston, and Utah.

 

[hammystyle]

I don't see him as a top 25 player at all, maybe not even in the West. I think he's dominant defensively, but very disruptive to our own offense and a pain for his teammates and coaches. If he was a player that could be counted on to play 75 games and played a better team game offensively I think his talent would rank him much higher. He can be pretty amazing sometimes. Unfortunately he is not that guy.

I made a quick, quick list of guys just in the West who I think are surely better, and then some who are arguably better or very close. I asterisked the guys who I think were real close to the inarguable list, but like I said, its arguable.

Better:
Dirk
J Howard
Yao
McGrady
C Paul
T Parker
Duncan
Iverson
Anthony
Boozer
D Williams
B Davis
E Brand
Kobe
Nash
Marion

Arguably:
Manu*
Gasol*
D West
T Chandler*
Camby*
A Jefferson
B Roy
L Aldridge
Kirilenko
C Kaman
Bynum
Stoudemire
Kevin Martin

 

[Oscar]

I put Artest somewhere near 25. By sheer talent he should be a lot higher, but you can't discount the baggage he brings to any team he plays for. and that lowers it a lot.

 

[Superman]

You can highly doubt it but you'd be wrong. ANY time a major player is involved in events that are splashed all over the evening news, both locally and nationally, it has a tremendous impact on the team as they're continually having microphones shoved in their faces and asked questions about another player's personal life instead of being able to concentrate on the task at hand.

The fact it was Ron Artest, who already has more baggage than Samsonite, just made it worse. He can be the nicest guy in the world but he's still one little misstep away from derailing his career and causing the Kings more problems in the process. And the last thing the Kings need is more problems.

Very few people actually dislike Ron Artest. It's simply that he's fatally flawed and sooner or later everyone around him suffers because of it.

Agreed. I might not call him "fatally flawed", as I think his reputation precedes him and causes him to be viewed in a bad light when maybe he shouldn't be all the time, but he is definitely flawed.

And whenever your best player is missing games because of off the court problems that he created of his own accord, you have to dock him points because of that.

 

[Kingster]

As far as talent, 15-25. As far as market value, 75 -150.

 

[Glenn]

As far as talent, 15-25. As far as market value, 75 -150.

That's a good way of looking at it although I wouldn't go as low as you do.

In any case if this is a common perception round the league, it may have a great bearing on what Artest does at the end of the year. Will he pull a Bonzi?

 

[Tarindel]

I try to stay somewhat objective about members of my favorite franchise, despite how hard that can be to do, sometimes. Since I play fantasy basketball, I took a peek where he was ranked on Yahoo. 40th at the start of the season, 93rd now.

If you change the sort by field to "season (average)" instead of "season (total)", it will do the ranking by average instead of total, which has the effect of filtering out missed games.

By that metric, Artest ranks 38th in the league currently.

As a side note, Yahoo seems to think very highly of low turnover players and penalizes high turnover players pretty severely. It's also worth noting that Yahoo doesn't really rank a players defense unless it results in a blocked shot. If Artest changes a players shot, causing him to miss, it doesn't affect his Yahoo ranking. Thus, for overall player measure, it's not necessarily a great indicator.

 

[Superman]

If you change the sort by field to "season (average)" instead of "season (total)", it will do the ranking by average instead of total, which has the effect of filtering out missed games.

By that metric, Artest ranks 38th in the league currently.

As a side note, Yahoo seems to think very highly of low turnover players and penalizes high turnover players pretty severely. It's also worth noting that Yahoo doesn't really rank a players defense unless it results in a blocked shot. If Artest changes a players shot, causing him to miss, it doesn't affect his Yahoo ranking. Thus, for overall player measure, it's not necessarily a great indicator.

On defense, Ron is top ten, maybe top five, in the League. Offensively, he's probably somewhere in the mid- to low-30's. So, to average those out, he's probably, talent-wise, in the high teens overall.

To me, however, it's his baggage that drops his ranking out of the top 25.

 

[PurpleHaze]

On defense, Ron is top ten, maybe top five, in the League. Offensively, he's probably somewhere in the mid- to low-30's. So, to average those out, he's probably, talent-wise, in the high teens overall.

To me, however, it's his baggage that drops his ranking out of the top 25.

I disagree that Ron is only top ten or maybe top five defensively. I can barely think of anyone in the league I would rate higher on D. Not Bowen (I rate Duncan better on that team), not Bryant (he's very good defensively, but not better than Artest), Garnett (would probably rate 2nd on my list to Artest), Camby (very good, but also a bit inconsistent for my taste), Kirilenko (an inconsistent, but remarkable defender), Prince (probably best on a very good defensive team), Wallace (still very good, but seems more disinterested as a Bull).

So there. Artest is #1 defensive lock-down stopper in the NBA - IMO. As far as "all that horrible baggage." What about the baggage of Kobe Bryant? A screwed up rape case in Colorado where he reportedly paid off his accuser to the tune of several million dollars not to pursue a criminal case with the local D.A. His on and off trade demands, etc. All this baggage stuff is more in the eye of the beholder, so if it's not immediately affecting my teams performance, then it's not affecting me in my overall analysis of particular NBA talent involved.

 

[Superman]

I disagree that Ron is only top ten or maybe top five defensively. I can barely think of anyone in the league I would rate higher on D. Not Bowen (I rate Duncan better on that team), not Bryant (he's very good defensively, but not better than Artest), Garnett (would probably rate 2nd on my list to Artest), Camby (very good, but also a bit inconsistent for my taste), Kirilenko (an inconsistent, but remarkable defender), Prince (probably best on a very good defensive team), Wallace (still very good, but seems more disinterested as a Bull).

So there. Artest is #1 defensive lock-down stopper in the NBA - IMO.

Fine, call Artest the #1 defensive player in the NBA. That still doesn't get him into the top 15 overall, much less the top ten where he put himself.

As far as "all that horrible baggage." What about the baggage of Kobe Bryant? A screwed up rape case in Colorado where he reportedly paid off his accuser to the tune of several million dollars not to pursue a criminal case with the local D.A. His on and off trade demands, etc. All this baggage stuff is more in the eye of the beholder, so if it's not immediately affecting my teams performance, then it's not affecting me in my overall analysis of particular NBA talent involved.

First off, I didn't say "all that horrible baggage." If you're going to quote me, at least do it accurately. It makes it hard to take the rest of your comment seriously when you start out exaggerating.

Secondly, Kobe Bryant's Lakers are 19-11 following his trade demand, with the teammate he criticized the most playing a key role in the team's improved play. The season that the sexual assault case was going on, the Lakers went all the way to the NBA Finals. We, on the other hand, were a sub-.500 team in the midst of Ron Artest's legal troubles last season. The Indiana Pacers went from contender to second-class the year of the brawl. I think it's clear that Artest's off-court problems had an effect on his team's performances, especially when you consider the fact that he missed significant stretches of games due to his off-court issues. It doesn't have anything to do with "the eye of the beholder". It's fact.

And more to the point, we just can't know when Ron is going to fly off the handle and become a huge problem. He's shown he has the makings of a dual personality in the past with his retirement threats and such with the Pacers. This is where his unpredictability comes into play, if you ask me. I am definitely holding on to the past more than most are, but because of the severity of his past missteps, it's hard not to. I am not convinced that he won't flip that switch and turn into a huge problem in the future.

Thirdly, this is part of the problem, if you ask me. We are again comparing Ron Artest with Kobe Bryant, when there's little comparison to be made. Both are the best player on their respective teams, but our problem is that Ron isn't good enough to be Numero Uno on a championship contender. Kobe hasn't proven that he is either, but if I had to put all my eggs in one basket, there's no contest that I'm celebrating Easter with Kobe and not Ron. And that doesn't even take into consideration their off-court and emotional issues.