Giving up on WCS? (split from game thread)

Amiga said:
I'm really close to giving up on willie.
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I'm really curious to see what he gets on the open market. He's got such an interesting game. He's improved in the areas he wasn't drafted for (shooting and scoring) and hasn't improved in the ones he was (rebounding and defense). He's ridiculously athletic, but also kind of lazy and has a pretty low bball iq. I'm honestly not sure what his long term potential is.
 
I think he's ideally suited to be the first big off the bench and spot starter. He continues to show improvement though so you can't let him walk.
 
allrightythen said:
The draft and/or free agency could put a lot of pressure on him to bring it more consistently. I do think his defensive value is not something that will ever been seen on a stat sheet though. He does things defensively that few bigs his size can.
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In tonight's game there was one instance I remember where he switched on to Butler who tried to brake him down for a bit but Willie played very good D and made Butler give up the ball and switch the play.
 
Dude was looking great for a stretch. He just needs to figure out how to be consistent.

If we luck out and get a top tier big this draft, and if Giles is legit, then WCS has a place on the bench. He's not a bad player, and still getting better, but he has a ways to go if we're thinking starter on a playoff team.

Intangibles are great, but tangibles are better.
 
about his rebounding though, I remember reading this article in sacbee in which he references his injury when playing above the rim ( I think he broke his thumb) and says something to this effect: "once you go through something like that you cannot help but me more careful.. sometimes I know I'm supposed to go get that ball, but I'm like, nah, i'm not gonna mess with that". (the quotation marks are approximate, but I think it was pretty much something like that..
 
he’s having a good season..Willie is going to be a key player in this league. His length and ability to show on pick n rolls will be invaluable. I know he doesn’t consistently play excellent defense but I think his priorities change from game to game because there is opportunity to show all aspects of his game or whatever he’s working on at that time.

He just needs to discover his exact role. Right now he seems to have high scoring ambitions and I guess now is the best time to explore it while nobody else is firmly taking that mantle. We’ve seen Willie be a game changer before. That Philly game was a prime example.

Willie at worst is the player i thought we were getting when we drafted him but I still see a lot of room and ability for improvement.
 
I wouldn’t give up on him yet because he has a unique skill set and gets a surprising number of assists (he can play in a ball movement offense), but if he happened to be the make-weight in a sign-and-trade for one of the premier RFAs this summer I wouldn’t cry about it.
 
He needs to stop trying to be a playmaker, especially in the open court. It's like watching a less talented pre-2015 Cuz run the break. Also was not a fan of how he was throwing passes in between guys and then looking at them after as if it were their fault for not being in the right spot or catching the ball.
 
Kingz19 said:
he’s having a good season..Willie is going to be a key player in this league. His length and ability to show on pick n rolls will be invaluable. I know he doesn’t consistently play excellent defense but I think his priorities change from game to game because there is opportunity to show all aspects of his game or whatever he’s working on at that time.

He just needs to discover his exact role. Right now he seems to have high scoring ambitions and I guess now is the best time to explore it while nobody else is firmly taking that mantle. We’ve seen Willie be a game changer before. That Philly game was a prime example.

Willie at worst is the player i thought we were getting when we drafted him but I still see a lot of room and ability for improvement.
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That's it in a nutshell. I don't think either he or Joerger have figured that out quite yet, possibly because there are still some questions to answer.
 
allrightythen said:
The draft and/or free agency could put a lot of pressure on him to bring it more consistently. I do think his defensive value is not something that will ever been seen on a stat sheet though. He does things defensively that few bigs his size can.
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He really does a lot that other big men can't do that doesn't get shown on the stat sheet but then he also doesn't do the simple things that other big men are expected to do like protect the rim.

I really liked the defense tonight with Koufos and Sampson in the game. If the TWolves attempted a shot in the paint they either had a hand in their face or got fouled hard (well hard for today's NBA standards). That never happens when WCS is in the game. Koufos doesn't even block a lot of shots these days but he still protects the rim better than Willie.

I'm just trying to figure out what is more valuable. Is it more valuable to be able to switch and guard smaller players without getting burnt or is it more valuable to provide good resistance in the paint? I feel like rim protection is more valuable because it's needed more often than switching onto smaller players. Like if you told me I had to pick the best starting 5 for the Kings to win the most games possible this year, I'd pick Koufos because of his consistency and defense around the rim.

I'm all for keeping Willie whether he's a starter or not but I'd never give him a big contract.
 
Like most of you have already said, Willie is an extremely complicated player. It's year 3, and he's improved, but I still don't know what he's exactly good at.

I think we all do wish he would focus more on his overall game than just offense. I think we will go into this draft without any consideration of Willie. It's a good thing we'll have 1 more year of him here before we decide whether or not we want to give him $10m+ per year.
 
ESP47 said:
He really does a lot that other big men can't do that doesn't get shown on the stat sheet but then he also doesn't do the simple things that other big men are expected to do like protect the rim.

I really liked the defense tonight with Koufos and Sampson in the game. If the TWolves attempted a shot in the paint they either had a hand in their face or got fouled hard (well hard for today's NBA standards). That never happens when WCS is in the game. Koufos doesn't even block a lot of shots these days but he still protects the rim better than Willie.

I'm just trying to figure out what is more valuable. Is it more valuable to be able to switch and guard smaller players without getting burnt or is it more valuable to provide good resistance in the paint? I feel like rim protection is more valuable because it's needed more often than switching onto smaller players. Like if you told me I had to pick the best starting 5 for the Kings to win the most games possible this year, I'd pick Koufos because of his consistency and defense around the rim.

I'm all for keeping Willie whether he's a starter or not but I'd never give him a big contract.
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I think something that gets lost is how many times Willie cuts guys off before they get into the paint forcing them into a perimeter shot. It is easy to get caught up in blocked shots, but how often does it actually stop a basket? For instance, there was a sequence tonight where Towns blocked a shot only to have it go to another King. He then blocked their shot as well, but again it went to a King who then scored. In the stat sheet that looks really good. 2 blocks and 33% shooting, but ultimately it was one possession by the Kings that ended up with a basket.
 
Telemachus said:
I think something that gets lost is how many times Willie cuts guys off before they get into the paint forcing them into a perimeter shot. It is easy to get caught up in blocked shots, but how often does it actually stop a basket? For instance, there was a sequence tonight where Towns blocked a shot only to have it go to another King. He then blocked their shot as well, but again it went to a King who then scored. In the stat sheet that looks really good. 2 blocks and 33% shooting, but ultimately it was one possession by the Kings that ended up with a basket.
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I'm not getting caught up on blocked shots though. Koufos doesn't block many shots but he makes himself big at the rim and forces misses or at least forces the offensive player to have to make an impressive play to get the basket. Many times WCS does cut guys off and helps the defense but other times he cuts guys off and they make a pass and now they have an easy basket in the paint because our center is 16ft away on a guard. He looked like a scrub against Towns in both games this year because he keeps on biting on the same move over and over. Koufos just stays big and forces Towns to make a play over him. WCS bites and allows Towns to just make one extra move for an easy basket.

My question is will WCS be a beast on a team surrounded by high IQ defenders or would he still just be a "well he's solid but we aren't really going anywhere special because of him" type of player?
 
The only three players as of now who are part of the core moving forward are Fox, Giles & Bogs. I'd trade Willie for the right price and he will ask for big money in free agency and I hope the Kings don't throw it his way. Let another team try to turn him into what they feel he is supposed to become.
 
VF21 said:
That's it in a nutshell. I don't think either he or Joerger have figured that out quite yet, possibly because there are still some questions to answer.
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I believe wholeheartedly that Joerger and Divac have determined what WCS's role should be going forward, but I don't believe that WCS is ok with that role. This may be a situation in which a young guy just can't believe what he's hearing from his coach or management about his role, and will only believe it when he hears it from another coach of another team. Kind of like a young adult who doesn't believe what his parent says until he hears it from a different source, or a spouse not hearing it from a spouse until he/she hears it from another "independent" source.

As others have said, he's inconsistent. When it comes to the offensive side of his game I don't believe his inconsistency is because of effort; I just see a guy who just isn't as talented in terms of his balance, agility, and touch to be first or second option on a good team. And let's think of where he would fit on a very good team. Where would he fit on the Warriors? He'd only be "garbage guy." Same thing for the Rockets, Celtics, Cavs, Raptors, Spurs, Timberwolves and Thunder. If he were traded to one of those teams, they'd immediately define for him what his role was in no uncertain terms, and because he's on a good team, he would probably go out there and do exactly what they told him to do, and he'd probably be pretty darned good doing it.

Unlike his offense, I believe his defense and rebounding is inconsistent because of inconsistent effort. We've even heard comments from him to that effect. As he gets closer and closer to the end of his contract, I would expect for his defensive effort, including rebounding, to become more and more consistent. But what makes it so difficult for me to figure out WCS is this question: What would his defensive/rebounding effort be after he getting a contract renewal from the Kings? I don't know the answer to that. Is he going to mature into a player that gives that consistent effort, or is he going to revert to his mean of inconsistent effort because now he's got the contract?
 
Depending on the front office's read on WCS's contract expectations - I'm ok with moving on from him.

Based on his self-love, I think WCS will want top tier big man money... and he is not a top tier big man. He's a very nice utility big. He's not a starter on a perennial playoff team imo.

If he wants the right money for that role then I'm good.

If we wants "DeMarcus heir apparent" money... bye
 
I presume we make him a qualifying offer and if someone goes big time after him they can have him. Maybe you do a S&T for a pick or young player. I think if we had two bigs who play the new NBA style and have scoring skills he will accept the role as banger/garbageman though. Will be interesting to see what happens when Giles plays next year and who we draft.
 
Kingster said:
I believe wholeheartedly that Joerger and Divac have determined what WCS's role should be going forward, but I don't believe that WCS is ok with that role. This may be a situation in which a young guy just can't believe what he's hearing from his coach or management about his role, and will only believe it when he hears it from another coach of another team. Kind of like a young adult who doesn't believe what his parent says until he hears it from a different source, or a spouse not hearing it from a spouse until he/she hears it from another "independent" source.

As others have said, he's inconsistent. When it comes to the offensive side of his game I don't believe his inconsistency is because of effort; I just see a guy who just isn't as talented in terms of his balance, agility, and touch to be first or second option on a good team. And let's think of where he would fit on a very good team. Where would he fit on the Warriors? He'd only be "garbage guy." Same thing for the Rockets, Celtics, Cavs, Raptors, Spurs, Timberwolves and Thunder. If he were traded to one of those teams, they'd immediately define for him what his role was in no uncertain terms, and because he's on a good team, he would probably go out there and do exactly what they told him to do, and he'd probably be pretty darned good doing it.

Unlike his offense, I believe his defense and rebounding is inconsistent because of inconsistent effort. We've even heard comments from him to that effect. As he gets closer and closer to the end of his contract, I would expect for his defensive effort, including rebounding, to become more and more consistent. But what makes it so difficult for me to figure out WCS is this question: What would his defensive/rebounding effort be after he getting a contract renewal from the Kings? I don't know the answer to that. Is he going to mature into a player that gives that consistent effort, or is he going to revert to his mean of inconsistent effort because now he's got the contract?
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I have to disagree about him not doing what Joerger wants. Willie averages close to 30 minutes per game, I believe he is at the top of the list for the Kings, just a tick more than Bogdanovic, although Bogs might have passed him after yersterday's game. We are just talking tenths.

Joerger has shown no hesitation at all about sitting players that don't play the way he wants (see Skal). He sat Willie for quite a while in a game the other day when he didn't like the way Willie was executing (a little too much ISO). So, I think Willie is playing or at least attempting to play the way Joerger wants him to. I think Joerger is trying to see what he has with Willie and how much Willie can grow.

From the time he hurt his back until he hurt his knee, he put together a pretty good 22 game stretch.

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Folsomkingsfan said:
I'm really curious to see what he gets on the open market. He's got such an interesting game. He's improved in the areas he wasn't drafted for (shooting and scoring) and hasn't improved in the ones he was (rebounding and defense). He's ridiculously athletic, but also kind of lazy and has a pretty low bball iq. I'm honestly not sure what his long term potential is.
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I agree with everything in your post except for your assertion that Willie is "kind of lazy" and has a "low bball iq." You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but in my opinion, that's unfair and without merit.
 
John Galt said:
Depending on the front office's read on WCS's contract expectations - I'm ok with moving on from him.

Based on his self-love, I think WCS will want top tier big man money... and he is not a top tier big man. He's a very nice utility big. He's not a starter on a perennial playoff team imo.

If he wants the right money for that role then I'm good.

If we wants "DeMarcus heir apparent" money... bye
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I agree with you - except for the self-love comment.
I've been arguing that we need to calm down about Willie and give him the full three years to prove that he belongs (here). In whatever role he best fits. Then go from there.
I am intrigued by his potential, but he's yet to pull it all together. And after a game like this and showing that he's nothing more than KAT's waterboy, it does create some doubt.
 
JCTNKINGFAN said:
I have to disagree about him not doing what Joerger wants. Willie averages close to 30 minutes per game, I believe he is at the top of the list for the Kings, just a tick more than Bogdanovic, although Bogs might have passed him after yersterday's game. We are just talking tenths.

Joerger has shown no hesitation at all about sitting players that don't play the way he wants (see Skal). He sat Willie for quite a while in a game the other day when he didn't like the way Willie was executing (a little too much ISO). So, I think Willie is playing or at least attempting to play the way Joerger wants him to. I think Joerger is trying to see what he has with Willie and how much Willie can grow.

From the time he hurt his back until he hurt his knee, he put together a pretty good 22 game stretch.

Click to expand...

You may be right that WCS knows what Joerger want. I'm not claiming he can't understand Joerger. I just don't think he's giving Joerger what he wants from his center looking into next year and beyond. It's not like Joerger has much to choose from on this team when it comes to rebounders; Joerger is forced to use WCS whether he wants to or not.

Here are the rebounding stats in terms of average and standard deviation over the 20 games prior to the injury; also a nice graph that shows the ups and downs over the 20 games. (See link below for graph). So we'll imagine that injuries have no place in our analysis of WCS (but we know that they really do). That's an average of 8.0 per game. For the season, WCS is averaging 6.7 rebounds per game. His standard deviation (measure of consistency) over those 20 games, or variance from the mean over the 20 games is 2.5. I'd love to know how that 2.5 SD stacks up against other centers around the league. I'd also like that SD stat for the entire season, but just don't want to punch in the numbers for all those games. If "Stat Man" can find SDs easily and compare to other centers, it would be very interesting to see. Then we could actually see statistically how much more or less consistent WCS in rebounding compared to other centers around the league.


http://www.calculator.net/standard-deviation-calculator.html?numberinputs=4,9,10,11,10,6,13,7,4,9,4,8,8,9,9,7,11,9,6,6&x=90&y=8
 
Kingster said:
You may be right that WCS knows what Joerger want. I'm not claiming he can't understand Joerger. I just don't think he's giving Joerger what he wants from his center looking into next year and beyond. It's not like Joerger has much to choose from on this team when it comes to rebounders; Joerger is forced to use WCS whether he wants to or not.

Here are the rebounding stats in terms of average and standard deviation over the 20 games prior to the injury; also a nice graph that shows the ups and downs over the 20 games. (See link below for graph). So we'll imagine that injuries have no place in our analysis of WCS (but we know that they really do). That's an average of 8.0 per game. For the season, WCS is averaging 6.7 rebounds per game. His standard deviation (measure of consistency) over those 20 games, or variance from the mean over the 20 games is 2.5. I'd love to know how that 2.5 SD stacks up against other centers around the league. I'd also like that SD stat for the entire season, but just don't want to punch in the numbers for all those games. If "Stat Man" can find SDs easily and compare to other centers, it would be very interesting to see. Then we could actually see statistically how much more or less consistent WCS in rebounding compared to other centers around the league.


http://www.calculator.net/standard-deviation-calculator.html?numberinputs=4,9,10,11,10,6,13,7,4,9,4,8,8,9,9,7,11,9,6,6&x=90&y=8
Click to expand...
Interesting, good data.
 
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