Monte and Trades - Split off from Davion Thread

[pdxKingsFan]

Hard to deny that Presti was the true inventor of the process and appears to have done it better than Hinkie twice.

Needless to say nobody else has come close to doing it even as well as Hinkie which is still a team that hasn't cracked the second round of the playoffs.

He might be the best small market GM in modern NBA history but it seems ridiculous to look at the one good outlier and ignore all the GMs that pushed their chips in early and destroyed promising teams after one good playoff run.

There were like 5 or 6 more GMs that passed on Sengun after we picked Davion (and Presti had that pick) and none of those picks are really much better than Davion and it's really only Monte's one questionable draft pick.

 

[sactowndog]

Hard to deny that Presti was the true inventor of the process and appears to have done it better than Hinkie twice.

Needless to say nobody else has come close to doing it even as well as Hinkie which is still a team that hasn't cracked the second round of the playoffs.

He might be the best small market GM in modern NBA history but it seems ridiculous to look at the one good outlier and ignore all the GMs that pushed their chips in early and destroyed promising teams after one good playoff run.

76ers have made the 2nd Round Semi’s losing in 4 games 4 of the last 5 years????

and again I’m not saying Monte is a bad GM. He certainly is not Vlade. But as a trader of assets I think he is slightly below average.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

76ers have made the 2nd Round Semi’s losing in 4 games 4 of the last 5 years????

and again I’m not saying Monte is a bad GM. He certainly is not Vlade. But as a trader of assets I think he is slightly below average.

I meant they haven’t gotten past the second round, bad word choice.

 

[ockingsfan]

I'm going to wait until next year's trade deadline on deciding how good Monte is at making trades. Once he has more flexibility with his 1st round draft picks (hopefully our 1st round pick coveys this year, meaning we made the playoffs for the 2nd straight year).

Monte's going to have more expiring contracts with some trade value (Mitchell, Durate and Lyles) and some vets with reasonable contracts with an ideal 2 years left (Huerter and HB) and his 1st round picks available to make a bigger move come this summer and the next trade deadline.

Also by next year's trade deadline, we should have a pretty good idea if Keegan's going to make that leap to being a legit #1 or #2 in the league. I think it's better to be patient for the right trade rather than just making a trade for the sake of making a trade.

 

[TheMobb]

76ers have made the 2nd Round Semi’s losing in 4 games 4 of the last 5 years????

and again I’m not saying Monte is a bad GM. He certainly is not Vlade. But as a trader of assets I think he is slightly below average.

I think it’s too soon to come to a conclusion on this. Let’s see what his body of work is after 5-10 years or however long his tenure lasts. Can’t really argue with the results so far.

 

[dude12]

Worst thread ever

 

[sactowndog]

I think it’s too soon to come to a conclusion on this. Let’s see what his body of work is after 5-10 years or however long his tenure lasts. Can’t really argue with the results so far.

Generally 3 years should be plenty of data and yes I can

 

[chief bromden]

Sactown, seems like most of your cons are trades where the Kings acquire cash. That screams ownership more than GM to me, but I could be wrong. The only two moves I'd like to change would be the one to let DDV walk because of the Red Velvet trade (but I can see the logic behind it) and the Davion pick (but the likelihood that another draftee would bust is just as high), so I'd say Monte has done a pretty good job. Perfect and better than Presti? No, but that cons list is a lot weaker than some of the other GMs that have rolled thru Sacramento over the past decade-plus.

 

[LT-Sac-Town]

So to summarize, Monte isn't as good as a trader as the much more experienced GM in Presti, who was also in a much better position to actually rebuild and stack assets? Got it lol

 

[Section 101]

Just for contrast see this series of trades by OKC:



Ersan Ilyasova, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Orlando (ORL) with Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis for Serge Ibaka


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Philadelphia (PHI) for Ersan Ilyasova and 2020 1st round pick [top-20 protected]


Paul George, SG
Traded to Oklahoma City (OKC) from Indiana (IND) for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis


Jerami Grant, PF
Traded to Denver (DEN) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for 2020 1st round pick [top-10 protected 2020, 2021, 2022, coveys to two second-rounders if not in 2022]


JUL 10 2019
Paul George, SG
Traded to LA (LAC) from Oklahoma City (OKC) for Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, Danilo Gallinari, 2021 1st round pick [unprotected MIA pick] , 2022 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2023 1st round pick [top-14 protected MIA pick] , 2023 1st round pick [right to swap] , 2024 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick] , 2025 1st round pick [right to swap] and 2026 1st round pick [unprotected LAC pick]


Danilo Gallinari, PF
Traded to Atlanta (ATL) from Oklahoma City (OKC) with $750k for 2028 2nd round pick [conditional]


to turn Serge Ibaka into all that is some first level wheeling and dealing

Those trades were made several years ago, how many playoff series wins do they have since then and how many titles?

 

[sactowndog]

Those trades were made several years ago, how many playoff series wins do they have since then and how many titles?

Williams was drafted last year. And part of the reason for the trade was to bottom out which they did and drafted Chet Holmgren.

would you rather be OKC now or the Kings?

 

[sactowndog]

Sactown, seems like most of your cons are trades where the Kings acquire cash. That screams ownership more than GM to me, but I could be wrong. The only two moves I'd like to change would be the one to let DDV walk because of the Red Velvet trade (but I can see the logic behind it) and the Davion pick (but the likelihood that another draftee would bust is just as high), so I'd say Monte has done a pretty good job. Perfect and better than Presti? No, but that cons list is a lot weaker than some of the other GMs that have rolled thru Sacramento over the past decade-plus.

if your point is ownership plays a role I would agree. Ownership also played a role in not trading Barnes. But part of the GM’s job is to manage that.

as for the moves I considered cons I listed them. So I won’t rehash it. BTW the Davion move was a draft pick and part of a separate discussion on draft acumen where I would put Monte above average not below average as I would as a trader.

 

[sactowndog]

Sactown, seems like most of your cons are trades where the Kings acquire cash. That screams ownership more than GM to me, but I could be wrong. The only two moves I'd like to change would be the one to let DDV walk because of the Red Velvet trade (but I can see the logic behind it) and the Davion pick (but the likelihood that another draftee would bust is just as high), so I'd say Monte has done a pretty good job. Perfect and better than Presti? No, but that cons list is a lot weaker than some of the other GMs that have rolled thru Sacramento over the past decade-plus.

one other thought.

Vlade actually made pretty decent trades. He might have the worst draft acumen of all time but as a trader he wasn’t bad.

Pete was just a total disaster.

Jeff made plenty of really good trades. Weber, Bibby, etc.

 

[The_Jamal]

Presti is an incredible GM. No doubt. Probably the best in the league by a wide margin, especially considering he doesn't get a large market to work with.

So why would you victory lap him being better than Monte? Presti being awesome doesn't equate to Monte being a bad GM. That's just nonsensical thinking.

Comes down to a few points. Are the Kings better since Monte took over? Do we have a future since Monte took over? Do we have a path to competing now and in the future?

To me, all three of those questions are a resounding yes. Now, he's got to keep going and finish the team build right, but there's nothing in his resume here that would show the Kings are worse off since he took the job.

 

[sactowndog]

Presti is an incredible GM. No doubt. Probably the best in the league by a wide margin, especially considering he doesn't get a large market to work with.

So why would you victory lap him being better than Monte? Presti being awesome doesn't equate to Monte being a bad GM. That's just nonsensical thinking.

Comes down to a few points. Are the Kings better since Monte took over? Do we have a future since Monte took over? Do we have a path to competing now and in the future?

To me, all three of those questions are a resounding yes. Now, he's got to keep going and finish the team build right, but there's nothing in his resume here that would show the Kings are worse off since he took the job.

well A it’s a discussion board and the all star break so no games, draft, free agent signings or trades to discuss.

B) I just used Presti as an example not as a standard. The point was made Monte was trying to round out the roster with trades. Presti is a gold standard not a bar.

C) I think Monte is a below average trader and an above average drafter. So in general I would rather not see Monte trade picks because I think he will get less value for them than if he used them.

you may think differently and that is fine. Once Thursday starts happy to go back talking about games.

 

[SacTownKid]

Presti is an incredible GM. No doubt. Probably the best in the league by a wide margin, especially considering he doesn't get a large market to work with.

So why would you victory lap him being better than Monte? Presti being awesome doesn't equate to Monte being a bad GM. That's just nonsensical thinking.

Comes down to a few points. Are the Kings better since Monte took over? Do we have a future since Monte took over? Do we have a path to competing now and in the future?

To me, all three of those questions are a resounding yes. Now, he's got to keep going and finish the team build right, but there's nothing in his resume here that would show the Kings are worse off since he took the job.

Agreed, and yeah, now Monte has to stay aggressive otherwise all his ground forward goes bye bye. He has to realize what his options are and success determines his next moves. And while it is what it is, that's probably this seasons post season run and then onto potentially some tough decisions.

 

[The_Jamal]

Agreed, and yeah, now Monte has to stay aggressive otherwise all his ground forward goes bye bye. He has to realize what his options are and success determines his next moves. And while it is what it is, that's probably this seasons post season run and then onto potentially some tough decisions.

Someone brought it up earlier, but made a great point; he's getting his next round of assets back. If you think about it, trading for Domas with Hali, trading for Huerter, Monk with the MLE, drafting Keegan at 2... all in the last 2 years. And he's set it up to where this summer, he gets use of his picks back along with a pile of expiring contracts to play with.

Round 1 with his assets I think went very well. This summer, we'll see what Round 2 looks like.

 

[captain bill]

In 3 years:

Drafted Haliburton
Traded for Sabonis
Signed Mike Brown
Signed Monk
Traded for Huerter
Drafted Keegan

An average of 2 huge impact deals per year that have completely remade this franchise

Negatives:
Probably missed with Davion but he's not a bust
Missed with just about every attempted signing of young guys and while it's early the 2023 draft doesn't look impressive (this is his biggest weakness to me and it's a serious problem)
Jury out on Sasha
Arguably needed to move HB and re-signed him instead
No moves over one off-season and one trade deadline to improve after breaking the drought

I don't know how that tenure can be any worse than an A-. B+ if you're really harsh

Not making moves fast enough to satisfy fans isn't a legitimate criticism. Vlade was constantly wheeling and dealing and we see where that got us

 

[captain bill]

Worst thread ever

Yet it keeps popping in again with the exact same nit picky complaints that aren't very insightful and just bog down everything for no reason. It's like if a middle manager was reincarnated as a post.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Missed with just about every attempted signing of young guys and while it's early the 2023 draft doesn't look impressive (this is his biggest weakness to me and it's a serious problem)

He plucked Keon Ellis out of the 2022 undrafted pile and Colby is getting call ups and may be on a similar 2 year trajectory. I think he's improving. Even Neemy seems like a legit NBA player on the right team.

 

[TheMobb]

Generally 3 years should be plenty of data and yes I can

Time frame is team and situation dependent. When Monte took over the Kings were a mess and the cupboard was bare. So in the Kings case no 3 years is not enough time.

 

[The_Jamal]

In 3 years:

Drafted Haliburton
Traded for Sabonis
Signed Mike Brown
Signed Monk
Traded for Huerter
Drafted Keegan

An average of 2 huge impact deals per year that have completely remade this franchise

Negatives:
Probably missed with Davion but he's not a bust
Missed with just about every attempted signing of young guys and while it's early the 2023 draft doesn't look impressive (this is his biggest weakness to me and it's a serious problem)
Jury out on Sasha
Arguably needed to move HB and re-signed him instead
No moves over one off-season and one trade deadline to improve after breaking the drought

I don't know how that tenure can be any worse than an A-. B+ if you're really harsh

Not making moves fast enough to satisfy fans isn't a legitimate criticism. Vlade was constantly wheeling and dealing and we see where that got us

Not sure how he could be considered "not making moves". We're literally at the 2 year mark of acquiring Domas, along with Keegan/Huerter and Monk. In other words, 4 of our 5 most important players over that span.

 

[sactowndog]

Time frame is team and situation dependent. When Monte took over the Kings were a mess and the cupboard was bare. So in the Kings case no 3 years is not enough time.

Monte had assets in Bogdan he let walk. He had all his first round picks, he had many 2nd round picks, he had Barnes he could have traded, he had cap room he could have sold. The cupboard was not bare. It was lean but he squandered the assets he did have in a quixotic attempt to make the play-offs when we weren’t close. Now granted Vivek contributed to that but part of the GM job is managing your owner.

 

[sactowndog]

In 3 years:

Drafted Haliburton not a trade
Traded for Sabonis
Signed Mike Brown not a trade
Signed Monk not a trade
Traded for Huerter
Drafted Keegan not a trade.

An average of 2 huge impact deals per year that have completely remade this franchise

Negatives:
Probably missed with Davion but he's not a bust
Missed with just about every attempted signing of young guys and while it's early the 2023 draft doesn't look impressive (this is his biggest weakness to me and it's a serious problem). Some of these like TD and Jaden Hardy were trades
Jury out on Sasha - was a trade and a good one I missed
Arguably needed to move HB and re-signed him instead - not arguably. One of his worst things

No moves over one off-season and one trade deadline to improve after breaking the drought - the move to clear cap space which did nothing was another horrible mood

I don't know how that tenure can be any worse than an A-. B+ if you're really harsh
If we are talking just trades he is at best a C+

Not making moves fast enough to satisfy fans isn't a legitimate criticism. Vlade was constantly wheeling and dealing and we see where that got us

we are talking about skill in trading.

 

[sactowndog]

Not sure how he could be considered "not making moves". We're literally at the 2 year mark of acquiring Domas, along with Keegan/Huerter and Monk. In other words, 4 of our 5 most important players over that span.

jesus. What part of skill in trading is not clear to you all!

 

[TheMobb]

Monte had assets in Bogdan he let walk. He had all his first round picks, he had many 2nd round picks, he had Barnes he could have traded, he had cap room he could have sold. The cupboard was not bare. It was lean but he squandered the assets he did have in a quixotic attempt to make the play-offs when we weren’t close. Now granted Vivek contributed to that but part of the GM job is managing your owner.

I’m not sure what the argument is here, a lot of what you are bringing up is still TBD, and you are not giving him credit for what he did with the same assets you listed. One of the “many” first round picks was flipped for an all NBA center, Barnes wasn’t traded but are you saying he has had no value to the team? To breaking the playoff drought? The rights to Vezenkov was acquired with one of those 2nds - have you concluded he is a bust? Just seems like you have your mind made up on what it is you want to see so keep going with that.

 

[The_Jamal]

jesus. What part of skill in trading is not clear to you all!

He traded for one of the best Sacramento Kings players in our history. How is that not skill in trading?

Kevin Huerter for a protected FRP is an incredible deal. We've gotten immense returns already on that. Justin Holiday was used an expiring (who you said we lost for nothing), to facilitate this deal.

-Trey Lyles and DDV for Marvin Bagley is an incredible win for us. Lyles has been a far superior player to Bagley in just about every way. And while DDV didn't work out with us, he's showing what an absolute steal of a trade value wise that deal was for us.

-Trading for Sasha Vezenkov is a win (in which you said was just cash and he would never come over, btw). He has to find his footing, but I'm very confident he's an NBA rotation player.

-Acquiring Delon Wright for 2 2nd's is incredible value.

-Trading Delon Wright for TT was very dumb, I'll agree. But I've always brought up how poor a decision that was by Monte. This deal and drafting Davion are looking like his only clear misses to date in his Kings resume.

Of our 7 key rotation players, 3 of them were by trades (Domas+Huerter+Lyles), 2 were holdovers (Fox/HB), 1 drafted (Keegan) and one FA signing (Monk). So tell me again how he doesn't have skill in trading?

 

[sactowndog]

He traded for one of the best Sacramento Kings players in our history. How is that not skill in trading?
So I counted it as a pro but I will say many people do not given we gave up Haliburton

Kevin Huerter for a protected FRP is an incredible deal. We've gotten immense returns already on that. Justin Holiday was used an expiring (who you said we lost for nothing), to facilitate this deal.
I counted the Huerter trade as a pro

-Trey Lyles and DDV for Marvin Bagley is an incredible win for us. Lyles has been a far superior player to Bagley in just about every way. And while DDV didn't work out with us, he's showing what an absolute steal of a trade value wise that deal was for us.
I counted the Lyles trade as a Pro

-Trading for Sasha Vezenkov is a win (in which you said was just cash and he would never come over, btw). He has to find his footing, but I'm very confident he's an NBA rotation player.
I missed the Sasha trade but said just above it was a pro I missed

-Acquiring Delon Wright for 2 2nd's is incredible value.
I disagree as was the wasted 2nd on TD and the 2nd sold to Dallas (Hardy for cash) and the trade back with Memphis with Woodard.

-Trading Delon Wright for TT was very dumb, I'll agree. But I've always brought up how poor a decision that was by Monte. This deal and drafting Davion are looking like his only clear misses to date in his Kings resume.

drafting Davion is off target

• Not trading Barnes
• Letting Bogi go for nothing
• Making the trade for cap space to sign your own guy.

Of our 7 key rotation players, 3 of them were by trades (Domas+Huerter+Lyles), 2 were holdovers (Fox/HB), 1 drafted (Keegan) and one FA signing (Monk). So tell me again how he doesn't have skill in trading?

I just did

 

[sactowndog]

I’m not sure what the argument is here, a lot of what you are bringing up is still TBD, and you are not giving him credit for what he did with the same assets you listed.

One of the “many” first round picks was flipped for an all NBA center,
Your asset was Haliburton (good draft but not talking draft acumen) which you traded for Domas. I called it a pro but many would not.

Barnes wasn’t traded but are you saying he has had no value to the team? To breaking the playoff drought?
Barnes cost us the 8th draft slot or better. 7th was Kuminga 8th was Wagner. We would be a much better team with either of them and Nesmith on the roster.

The rights to Vezenkov was acquired with one of those 2nds - have you concluded he is a bust?
I called that trade a Pro

Just seems like you have your mind made up on what it is you want to see so keep going with that.

see comments. Just judging results. Don’t think I’m the one with my mind made up.

 

[TheMobb]

see comments. Just judging results. Don’t think I’m the one with my mind made up.

Let me get this straight. You’re saying that if Monte would have traded Barnes, the Kings would have automatically had a worse record and at worst would’ve gotten the 8th pick. Am I understanding your argument correctly?