Sac, Phi, OKC

[kb02]

Kings Out: Fox, Bagley, and Hield.
Kings In: Simmons, Dort, and Roby.

Phi Out: Simmons, Maxey, Curry, and a protected first.
Phi In: Fox and Hield.

OKC Out: Dort and Roby.
OKC In: Maxey, Curry, Bagley, and a protected first.

Trade works, per Espn Trade Machine.

Kings can run three, all nba level defenders on the court whenever they need to.

 

[Tetsujin]

The Kings would be the first team to hold a team under 100 and still lose by 40.

 

[kb02]

The Kings would be the first team to hold a team under 100 and still lose by 40.

Surprise folks aren't embracing defense more with what we've seen from Mitchell. Adding a legit all NBA defender and another, who has the potential to be one, I think, would assure the Kings make the playoffs this year. And defense usually shows up in the playoffs, so they can make a deep run.

I don't see the playoffs with this current roster.

 

[Tetsujin]

Surprise folks aren't embracing defense more with what we've seen from Mitchell. Adding a legit all NBA defender and another, who has the potential to be one, I think, would assure the Kings make the playoffs this year. And defense usually shows up in the playoffs, so they can make a deep run.

I don't see the playoffs with this current roster.

Trading our two best scorers for two dudes who can’t shoot but play pretty good defense, one of whom is embroiled in controversy because he literally won’t shoot in the fourth quarter, isn’t going to get the Kings any closer though. All you’re doing is turning a solid offensive team with one of the worst defenses in league history into a solid defensive team with possibly the worst offense ever seen.

 

[kb02]

Trading our two best scorers for two dudes who can’t shoot but play pretty good defense, one of whom is embroiled in controversy because he literally won’t shoot in the fourth quarter, isn’t going to get the Kings any closer though. All you’re doing is turning a solid offensive team with one of the worst defenses in league history into a solid defensive team with possibly the worst offense ever seen.

Defense > Offense.

I think the offense gets filled by Hali, Mitchell, and Davis. Right now, Buddy and Davis are redundant. Both are gunners, who can shoot you in or out of games. Hali's offense has been suppressed, because he's playing the connector role. And we really don't know Mitchell's upside though I think he can easily be a 15, 10 assists, 5 guy with all nba defense as a starter.

 

[Tetsujin]

Defense > Offense.

I think the offense gets filled by Hali, Mitchell, and Davis. Right now, Buddy and Davis are redundant. Both are gunners, who can shoot you in or out of games. Hali's offense has been suppressed, because he's playing the connector role. And we really don't know Mitchell's upside though I think he can easily be a 15, 10 assists, 5 guy with all nba defense as a starter.

Haliburton's offense has been suppressed to start the year because he's absolutely afraid to shoot the ball. The dude's been unselfish to the degree that Ben Simmons probably thinks he's being excessive. That's not something that trading Fox is going to magically fix.

Losing Fox and Buddy takes a good 45+ points out of your teams offensive production per game and Dort and Simmons and some sort of ultimatum to Haliburton to suddenly play like Harden aren't going to fill that gap on their own.

 

[macadocious]

also, we are getting unsustainable production out of Barnes.

 

[Tetsujin]

also, we are getting unsustainable production out of Barnes.

You never know. Barnes may have finally figured out the secret to turning into Lebron in his age 30 season.

 

[kb02]

Haliburton's offense has been suppressed to start the year because he's absolutely afraid to shoot the ball. The dude's been unselfish to the degree that Ben Simmons probably thinks he's being excessive. That's not something that trading Fox is going to magically fix.

Losing Fox and Buddy takes a good 45+ points out of your teams offensive production per game and Dort and Simmons and some sort of ultimatum to Haliburton to suddenly play like Harden aren't going to fill that gap on their own.

Haliburton has game speed and is wired to play the right way. I watched the Warriors broadcast and they were celebrating each time Hali passed the ball. Because it was the Warriors strategy. Don't let the 40%+ shooter from three, shoot. Run him off the line. All teams have been doing that this year. He's not settling for mid ranges or driving and kicking because he's trying to flex his new mid range game. It's the right play.

Buddy's points are the easiest to make up. Davis can put up 18 with playing time. And let's be honest, Fox's numbers were inflated by the pace of play.

 

[kb02]

also, we are getting unsustainable production out of Barnes.

Barnes game looks like it went up a level, but, yea, it's not sustainable. Really hope I'm wrong.

 

[Tetsujin]

Haliburton has game speed and is wired to play the right way. I watched the Warriors broadcast and they were celebrating each time Hali passed the ball. Because it was the Warriors strategy. Don't let the 40%+ shooter from three, shoot. Run him off the line. All teams have been doing that this year. He's not settling for mid ranges or driving and kicking because he's trying to flex his new mid range game. It's the right play.

Buddy's points are the easiest to make up. Davis can put up 18 with playing time. And let's be honest, Fox's numbers were inflated by the pace of play.

Aimlessly passing out of easy shots so someone could take harder ones?

 

[The_Jamal]

Yeah 28 PPG on 69% TS and 25% USG is not going to continue. For comparison, Steph's best offensive season (probably the best offensive season ever) was 30.1 PPG on 67% TS and 32% USG.

 

[kb02]

Aimlessly passing out of easy shots so someone could take harder ones?

Rewatch the games. The shots that he was passing up, he was getting closed on.

 

[Tetsujin]

Rewatch the games. The shots that he was passing up, he was getting closed on.

He needs to shoot those.

 

[kb02]

He needs to shoot those.

No he doesn't when he his actions lead to better outcomes.

 

[Tetsujin]

There are likely metrics that show the end of play percentages. Hali has been a net positive the last two games. So we disagree. I think he's connecting and playing within the flow of the game. I don't want him to be a gunner, abuse teams in other ways.

The issue is that in your proposed trade, the only way this team even manages to stay competitive in games is for him to be a gunner.

Even now while Haliburton himself doesn't need to be a gunner, someone in that starting lineup needs to be in order for the inside actions we run with Holmes and Fox and, yes, Haliburton to work.

 

[kb02]

The issue is that in your proposed trade, the only way this team even manages to stay competitive in games is for him to be a gunner.

Even now while Haliburton himself doesn't need to be a gunner, someone in that starting lineup needs to be in order for the inside actions we run with Holmes and Fox and, yes, Haliburton to work.

Hali doesn't need to be a gunner after that trade. Davis fills that role. Hali gets to play his style next to Mitchell. And let's be honest, having Mitchell makes both Fox and Hali expendable. Given the salary and the style of play, I'd rather Fox go.

And to be clear, I like Fox. A lot. I just think you have to give up value to get value.

 

[206Fan]

Kings Out: Fox, Bagley, and Hield.
Kings In: Simmons, Dort, and Roby.

Phi Out: Simmons, Maxey, Curry, and a protected first.
Phi In: Fox and Hield.

OKC Out: Dort and Roby.
OKC In: Maxey, Curry, Bagley, and a protected first.

Trade works, per Espn Trade Machine.

Kings can run three, all nba level defenders on the court whenever they need to.

Not a good trade for us. If we trade for Simmons, we need shooters around him.. we can't trade Buddy.

At this point, I think Fox's trade value is quite higher than Simmons. We'd need more in return. At the same time, I don't see the 76ers parting ways with Maxey or Curry at all. Maxey is young, cheap, and improving. Curry is a much better player now than when he was back on the Kings.

 

[Tetsujin]

Hali doesn't need to be a gunner after that trade. Davis fills that role. Hali gets to play his style next to Mitchell. And let's be honest, having Mitchell makes both Fox and Hali expendable. Given the salary and the style of play, I'd rather Fox go.

And to be clear, I like Fox. A lot. I just think you have to give up value to get value.

The issue is that neither Haliburton and Mitchell are lead guards at this particular point. Could both be at some point in their career? Sure. But neither has really shown the ability to just have the offense flow through them like Fox has (neither has Simmons for that matter).

 

[kb02]

The issue is that neither Haliburton and Mitchell are lead guards at this particular point. Could both be at some point in their career? Sure. But neither has really shown the ability to just have the offense flow through them like Fox has (neither has Simmons for that matter).

Fox hasn't really been a lead guard either. Unless you define a lead guard as Westbrook 2.0.

 

[kb02]

Not a good trade for us. If we trade for Simmons, we need shooters around him.. we can't trade Buddy.

At this point, I think Fox's trade value is quite higher than Simmons. We'd need more in return. At the same time, I don't see the 76ers parting ways with Maxey or Curry at all. Maxey is young, cheap, and improving. Curry is a much better player now than when he was back on the Kings.

I see the Maxey and Curry points. I don't think Simmons value is significantly less than Fox's, contrary to public opinion.

 

[Tetsujin]

Fox hasn't really been a lead guard either. Unless you define a lead guard as Westbrook 2.0.

I feel like your definition of lead is that of the John Stocktons of the world.

Look at the top guards around the league at this point. With the exception of Chris Paul, most of them are score-first attackers whose passes are secondary to their ability to score and put pressure on defenses. The only guards who've shown any consistent ability to do that on this roster are being traded for a guy who can't score and a guy who's afraid to score when things matter.

 

[iowamcnabb]

It's an interesting thought but I still think this team needs more offensive firepower not less. I would be worried about replacing Fox and Buddys 45ish points a game.

Davion Ramsey?
Tyrese Davis
Barnes Dort
Simmons Mo
Holmes TT

Defensively that's possibly a top 10 defense, but where are the points coming from? The starting lineup would have one shot creator (Barnes when he is in Black Falcon mode, less so the rest of the season) and one maybe (Davion). When the threes aren't falling we would need someone to get us a bucket. I was hoping 'Rese was going to take a leap as he said he worked on the one on one stuff this offseason, but he doesn't seem to have the mentality for it (early still)

 

[Tetsujin]

It's an interesting thought but I still think this team needs more offensive firepower not less. I would be worried about replacing Fox and Buddys 45ish points a game.

Davion Ramsey?
Tyrese Davis
Barnes Dort
Simmons Mo
Holmes TT

Defensively that's possibly a top 10 defense, but where are the points coming from? The starting lineup would have one shot creator (Barnes when he is in Black Falcon mode, less so the rest of the season) and one maybe (Davion). When the threes aren't falling we would need someone to get us a bucket. I was hoping 'Rese was going to take a leap as he said he worked on the one on one stuff this offseason, but he doesn't seem to have the mentality for it (early still)

Right, I am not entirely opposed to selling out and doing everything to build a defensive juggernaut but (a) we would definitely need one of Fox or Buddy to stay just to keep our offense competent and (b) coaching becomes incredibly important in that we'd need a coach who could scheme up buckets when necessary and keep teams from just packing the paint and daring us to shoot even more than they are now.

 

[Woot!]

Rewatch the games. The shots that he was passing up, he was getting closed on.

Hali has passed up a bunch of open looks from 3; there aren't many shots better than those if a 40% shooter is shooting them. Every shot gets closed on.

 

[Tetsujin]

I see the Maxey and Curry points. I don't think Simmons value is significantly less than Fox's, contrary to public opinion.

If Simmons' value were higher than Fox's he'd have been traded by now.
Team drama + poor playoff play + potential injury rumors (mostly put out there by Rich Paul but still there all the same) has his valuation around the league incredibly low (or at least lower than what Morey believes it should be, which is all that really matters).

 

[Woot!]

I'm not a huge Simmons fan compared to many, but I certainly think that if you can get a top-whatever player in a league where stars rule you have to look at it.

However, I also think that good offense is actually harder than good defense. You can sooner teach a gifted athlete like Fox to become an above-average defender than you can teach a mediocre jump shooter to shoot like HB or Buddy. And what Fox can do offensively is absolutely special, his season-opening slump notwithstanding.

Kings have opened with competitive games against three playoff-caliber teams playing hard. They're not what they can/will become defensively yet. Fox is shooting 39%, including 16% from 3, and avg'ing 5 TO's per game. TH is shooting 22% from 3. They're offensively disjointed. HB's hot start doesn't fully compensate for that. And still there're some very promising signs.

A little rest, practice and film study is exactly what this team needs right now.

I expect a win against Phoenix.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Team needs a shot in the arm offensively. Most likely a coaching change could do this but failing that I don't see much need to chase after Simmons. Don't know if we could somehow trade Buddy + Bagley to upgrade whatever position Harkless is playing with Barnes but that is probably the way to go if it's doable. My guess is that player wouldn't be on the market.

 

[Woot!]

Team needs a shot in the arm offensively. Most likely a coaching change could do this but failing that I don't see much need to chase after Simmons. Don't know if we could somehow trade Buddy + Bagley to upgrade whatever position Harkless is playing with Barnes but that is probably the way to go if it's doable. My guess is that player wouldn't be on the market.

I like Harkless, but would support experimenting w/Buddy starting in his place. Buddy is a better rebounder and does his best defensive work in the post where he can use his strength. Would also be happy to see a bigger player have to chase Buddy around on the other end.

They do need a shot in the arm offensively. Part of that is simply Fox playing better, and part of them running more sets, if only to settle themselves down. They've been super-frenetic and perimeter-happy. 46 3PA out of 86 FGA against the Warriors. A little excessive.

 

[kb02]

I really don't think more offense is the way to go with this team. This team's issue is efficiency. Focus on making the opposing team score less than you rather than trying to score more than them.