Mock Draft Kings #2 lists

Hansel

Hansel

Bench
#31
#31
I was refering to all the projects who could be great players in the future (Ayton, Bagley, Porter,...). Doncic is a different player.
The floor is a physically stronger Orlando Magic's Turkoglu. The floor. Not sure about the ceiling.
It's a no brainer for me, hopefully not for the Suns.
Maybe Ayton in ten years will be a better player, maybe Bagley will be a better player,... I don't like to gamble that much.
Floor is too high with Doncic to pass on him.
 
King-Da-Yah

King-Da-Yah

Starter
#32
#32
Hansel said:
I was refering to all the projects who could be great players in the future (Ayton, Bagley, Porter,...). Doncic is a different player.
The floor is a physically stronger Orlando Magic's Turkoglu. The floor. Not sure about the ceiling.
It's a no brainer for me, hopefully not for the Suns.
Maybe Ayton in ten years will be a better player, maybe Bagley will be a better player,... I don't like to gamble that much.
Floor is too high with Doncic to pass on him.
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Great post, I think it is silly to label Doncic's ceiling as lower then other prospects too. We really cannot know the players who truly want to be great. However from his former coach's comments, Doncic has that desire. I am so torn between Doncic and Bagley. I am definitely leaning Doncic, just for how fun the team would be to watch.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#33
#33
Hansel said:
I was refering to all the projects who could be great players in the future (Ayton, Bagley, Porter,...). Doncic is a different player.
The floor is a physically stronger Orlando Magic's Turkoglu. The floor. Not sure about the ceiling.
It's a no brainer for me, hopefully not for the Suns.
Maybe Ayton in ten years will be a better player, maybe Bagley will be a better player,... I don't like to gamble that much.
Floor is too high with Doncic to pass on him.
Click to expand...
NBA is a star league. You are not going anywhere unless you have a franchise level player to build around. Its a very different game to the European game.

I think Doncic has a very high floor but Kings need to walk away with a franchise level talent. The whole point of a top 2 pick is to get one of those guys. Players like Turkoglu are not that hard to get, even as a small market team but it is impossible to get a franchise player unless you pick one in the draft or trade for one. The opportunity to trade for one are very rare.

Like I said in one of the thread here, if Kings already had their franchise player, I would be extremely comfortable drafting Doncic and feeling pretty good about it but we don't.

Kings are in a position where they have never been in before with the #2 pick in what looks to be a pretty good draft. They simply must, MUST walk away with a franchise level player from this draft. No ifs, buts or maybes about it. There is absolutely no room for safe picks. Pretty good player won't cut it. It needs to be a franchise level player, at least a top 10 NBA player in time.

So I don't really care who that player is or where they are from. Its time for Kings to analyze the living daylights out of each an every prospects both on and off the court. The Kings need to know everything and I mean EVERYTHING about each of the top prospects. I am talking the level of creepy stalking never seen before :D

We simply CANNOT walk away from this draft with a very good player. It just MUST be a franchise level guy or the rebuild will take much longer and that streak without play off appearances will just about double. This is not the time for the safe pick. This is time to hit the home run and smash it right out of the park.
 
Hansel

Hansel

Bench
#34
#34
"NBA is a star league" is a kind of a stereotype. Check out the injured Celtics, check out the Jazz.
Of course, it's true if you get Lebron. A player like Lebron comes once every twenty years.
There's no reason to gamble that much.

And just because Doncic is a safe pick doesn't mean he doesn't have potential.
The "problem" apparently is that most of his potential has been already discovered.
Is it bad?

It's like you get the chance to sign Lebron as a FA and you prefer signing Donte Greene cause he got so much potential.

If the management is confident Ayton will be better or Bagley will be better... Let's draft one of them.
On the other hand if we pass on Doncic I'm confident the Kings will have a new reason to be laughed at. We get used to, at least.
 
jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#35
#35
ParniValjak said:
NBA is a star league. You are not going anywhere unless you have a franchise level player to build around. Its a very different game to the European game.

I think Doncic has a very high floor but Kings need to walk away with a franchise level talent. The whole point of a top 2 pick is to get one of those guys. Players like Turkoglu are not that hard to get, even as a small market team but it is impossible to get a franchise player unless you pick one in the draft or trade for one. The opportunity to trade for one are very rare.

Like I said in one of the thread here, if Kings already had their franchise player, I would be extremely comfortable drafting Doncic and feeling pretty good about it but we don't.

Kings are in a position where they have never been in before with the #2 pick in what looks to be a pretty good draft. They simply must, MUST walk away with a franchise level player from this draft. No ifs, buts or maybes about it. There is absolutely no room for safe picks. Pretty good player won't cut it. It needs to be a franchise level player, at least a top 10 NBA player in time.

So I don't really care who that player is or where they are from. Its time for Kings to analyze the living daylights out of each an every prospects both on and off the court. The Kings need to know everything and I mean EVERYTHING about each of the top prospects. I am talking the level of creepy stalking never seen before :D

We simply CANNOT walk away from this draft with a very good player. It just MUST be a franchise level guy or the rebuild will take much longer and that streak without play off appearances will just about double. This is not the time for the safe pick. This is time to hit the home run and smash it right out of the park.
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I don't know. It's popular to say that a team must have a "franchise player" (i.e. the team's best player and the one you build your team around). But if you look at the rosters of championship teams over a good period of time (without becoming obsessed with the teams of Jordan, Kobe and LBJ), they don't always have someone who fits this definition. Championship teams certainly have multiple all-star talent. But when we talk about a franchise player, we're talking about more than just an all-star.

Of course the Kings would greatly benefit from a true franchise player. Who wouldn't? But I'm not comfortable with absolutes, and your assertion that we MUST draft a franchise player this year (or else) is an absolute.

Two points: One, franchise players need a few years to develop and to establish themselves as franchise players before you build your team around them, adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses. How many years in a rebuild? We're already at the turnaround point in our rebuild, where we all expect next year to be better than last year. Two, are there enough franchise players to go around? Or do you build around a 2nd or 3rd tier franchise player like a Jimmy Butler, or a DeMar DeRozan, or a Carmelo Anthony (in his prime)?
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#36
#36
jcassio said:
I don't know. It's popular to say that a team must have a "franchise player" (i.e. the team's best player and the one you build your team around). But if you look at the rosters of championship teams over a good period of time (without becoming obsessed with the teams of Jordan, Kobe and LBJ), they don't always have someone who fits this definition. Championship teams certainly have multiple all-star talent. But when we talk about a franchise player, we're talking about more than just an all-star.

Of course the Kings would greatly benefit from a true franchise player. Who wouldn't? But I'm not comfortable with absolutes, and your assertion that we MUST draft a franchise player this year (or else) is an absolute.

Two points: One, franchise players need a few years to develop and to establish themselves as franchise players before you build your team around them, adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses. How many years in a rebuild? We're already at the turnaround point in our rebuild, where we all expect next year to be better than last year. Two, are there enough franchise players to go around? Or do you build around a 2nd or 3rd tier franchise player like a Jimmy Butler, or a DeMar DeRozan, or a Carmelo Anthony (in his prime)?
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I get the point, but name the championship teams in the past 30 years without a superstar. Pistons? That’s really it. Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Bryant, Garnett, James, Curry, Durant.
 
Section 101

Section 101

All-Star
#37
#37
TaxMan said:
I get the point, but name the championship teams in the past 30 years without a superstar. Pistons? That’s really it. Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Bryant, Garnett, James, Curry, Durant.
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I wouldn't put Garnett on the list and add the Celtics. That was past the prime Garnett.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#38
#38
jcassio said:
I don't know. It's popular to say that a team must have a "franchise player" (i.e. the team's best player and the one you build your team around). But if you look at the rosters of championship teams over a good period of time (without becoming obsessed with the teams of Jordan, Kobe and LBJ), they don't always have someone who fits this definition. Championship teams certainly have multiple all-star talent. But when we talk about a franchise player, we're talking about more than just an all-star.

Of course the Kings would greatly benefit from a true franchise player. Who wouldn't? But I'm not comfortable with absolutes, and your assertion that we MUST draft a franchise player this year (or else) is an absolute.

Two points: One, franchise players need a few years to develop and to establish themselves as franchise players before you build your team around them, adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses. How many years in a rebuild? We're already at the turnaround point in our rebuild, where we all expect next year to be better than last year. Two, are there enough franchise players to go around? Or do you build around a 2nd or 3rd tier franchise player like a Jimmy Butler, or a DeMar DeRozan, or a Carmelo Anthony (in his prime)?
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Although I'm quoting you, I'm responding more in general to all of those talking about the mythical franchise player.

We had one of those not too long ago. The front office bungled it horribly and he's now looking at resigning with the New Orleans Pelicans. I don't count on us getting another one for a long time ... if ever.

I agree with your second point. I think we need to build around the best player we can get and hope for the best. It seems too many around here are tied into the "grass is always greener" syndrome and can't find a way out. I've said it before, but it seems like the destination has become so important in the minds of some that they're missing the journey.
 
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jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#42
#42
TaxMan said:
I get the point, but name the championship teams in the past 30 years without a superstar. Pistons? That’s really it. Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Bryant, Garnett, James, Curry, Durant.
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Superstar or franchise player? If you’re talking about a franchise player (someone you build your team around), look again. As I said in my previous post, look past the Jordan’s, Kobe’s and LBJ’s and you’ll find examples of teams with multiple all-star talents that won championships without a franchise player that they built their team around. Not just the Pistons. Mavs, Celtics, Spurs, the list goes on. We can always argue about who was or wasn’t a franchise player on those teams. Is Dirk a 1st tier franchise player? Duncan? Garnett? Those are (were) all great players, but not players you would build around as in trading and drafting to put the most complementary players on the team with them.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#44
#44
Hansel said:
"NBA is a star league" is a kind of a stereotype. Check out the injured Celtics, check out the Jazz.
Of course, it's true if you get Lebron. A player like Lebron comes once every twenty years.
There's no reason to gamble that much.

And just because Doncic is a safe pick doesn't mean he doesn't have potential.
The "problem" apparently is that most of his potential has been already discovered.
Is it bad?

It's like you get the chance to sign Lebron as a FA and you prefer signing Donte Greene cause he got so much potential.

If the management is confident Ayton will be better or Bagley will be better... Let's draft one of them.
On the other hand if we pass on Doncic I'm confident the Kings will have a new reason to be laughed at. We get used to, at least.
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Stereoptype or not, Jazz and Boston (this year a least) won’t ever win a championship as currently constructed until they do get their franchise guys.

I guess we differ in what we want from the team. I am no interested in building a play off team. I am interested in building a GENUINE championship contender. To be that, you need franchise players.

Your comparison of LBJ and Greene in FA is just clutching at straws. If you are a team like the Suns, Kings, Mavs, Hawks etc.. (i.e. teams that are rebuilding) that do not have a clear franchise guy, you draft for the upside because you are not going too far without one. You draft safe when you have that in place. Philadelphia can afford to go with a safe pick because they have 2 and possibly 3 pillars to build around. Two perennial All-Star types. Kings are no there yet.

While I love European style and approach to basketball, I am sorry fellow Europeans but that does not work in the NBA. Never has. You apply European type of offense but it still revolves around your franchise guys. Spurs are the closest team to European Style of basketball as we ever got but even they had at least 2 future Hall of Famers on ther hands. Without them no way in hell that will get you a championship. That is after all what we should be building towards. Not to just make the play offs. We could have done that with Cousins.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#45
#45
Livinthedream said:
Folks said that getting the number 2 pick was supposed to make this a slam dunk draft for us. Seems like it made it more complicated.
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If I had one bit of wisdom to give to a new Kings fan, it would be to always expect "more complicated". It seems to come with the territory.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#47
#47
jcassio said:
I don't know. It's popular to say that a team must have a "franchise player" (i.e. the team's best player and the one you build your team around). But if you look at the rosters of championship teams over a good period of time (without becoming obsessed with the teams of Jordan, Kobe and LBJ), they don't always have someone who fits this definition. Championship teams certainly have multiple all-star talent. But when we talk about a franchise player, we're talking about more than just an all-star.

Of course the Kings would greatly benefit from a true franchise player. Who wouldn't? But I'm not comfortable with absolutes, and your assertion that we MUST draft a franchise player this year (or else) is an absolute.

Two points: One, franchise players need a few years to develop and to establish themselves as franchise players before you build your team around them, adjusting to their strengths and weaknesses. How many years in a rebuild? We're already at the turnaround point in our rebuild, where we all expect next year to be better than last year. Two, are there enough franchise players to go around? Or do you build around a 2nd or 3rd tier franchise player like a Jimmy Butler, or a DeMar DeRozan, or a Carmelo Anthony (in his prime)?
Click to expand...
Really? No franchise players?

So are you saying Hakeen Olajuwon, Shaq, Wade, Durant, Curry, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Kareem Abdul Jabbar et all were not franchise players? We are talking about players who are first ballot hall of famers!

The only exception to the rule are the Detriot Pistons and even they had an all-star at every position and were also 2 deep at every position. If you look at the championship teams of the last 30 years all of them bar 1 had a franchise level player that they built their team around.

With pick 2 this is the best chance this franchise EVER had (at least in Sacramento era) of picking a franchise player. Playing safe means you pick Favors or Greg Monroe instead of DeMarcus Cousins. You pick Jameison instead of Vinsanity. You pick Joe Smith over KG! Fortune favors the brave. Kings, with their current rebuild project will not get this type of chance again. It why they MUST make it count and hit a home run. I couldn’t care less where the player is from, what position he plays, how much the general public is raving about him or whether he wins ROY next year. All I care about as a Kings fan is that in 3 years time we have a perennial all-star on our hands that is best 10 player in the league.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#50
#50
VF21 said:
At least they were in the church.
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That’s fine! I am not prepared to settle! If we went the full rebuild mode the do it right and not just to get there. Smarter FO would have gotten there with DMC and the blow up was not required but I digress.

I would rather be where Philadelphia are than where Jazz are. Both made the play offs but one of them has an enormous upside. The other is there making up the numbers. I know which one I would rather be!
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#51
#51
ParniValjak said:
That’s fine! I am not prepared to settle! If we went the full rebuild mode the do it right and not just to get there. Smarter FO would have gotten there with DMC and the blow up was not required but I digress.

I would rather be where Philadelphia are than where Jazz are. Both made the play offs but one of them has an enormous upside. The other is there making up the numbers. I know which one I would rather be!
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Um...okay?

:rolleyes:
 
jcassio

jcassio

Starter
#55
#55
ParniValjak said:
I am no interested in building a play off team. I am interested in building a GENUINE championship contender. To be that, you need franchise players.
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Please define "franchise player" - without giving me a list of names. I think we both agree that we want the Kings to have franchise players. I just think it's unlikely based on what I understand "franchise player" to mean. You apparently see plenty of franchise players to go around, so you must have a different definition of what "franchise player" means. My understanding is that "franchise player" is a term reserved for the best player on your team who is so good that you would trade and draft in order to assemble a roster of complementary players (i.e. "build a team around them").
 
Hansel

Hansel

Bench
#56
#56
ParniValjak said:
Stereoptype or not, Jazz and Boston (this year a least) won’t ever win a championship as currently constructed until they do get their franchise guys.

I guess we differ in what we want from the team. I am no interested in building a play off team. I am interested in building a GENUINE championship contender. To be that, you need franchise players.

Your comparison of LBJ and Greene in FA is just clutching at straws. If you are a team like the Suns, Kings, Mavs, Hawks etc.. (i.e. teams that are rebuilding) that do not have a clear franchise guy, you draft for the upside because you are not going too far without one. You draft safe when you have that in place. Philadelphia can afford to go with a safe pick because they have 2 and possibly 3 pillars to build around. Two perennial All-Star types. Kings are no there yet.

While I love European style and approach to basketball, I am sorry fellow Europeans but that does not work in the NBA. Never has. You apply European type of offense but it still revolves around your franchise guys. Spurs are the closest team to European Style of basketball as we ever got but even they had at least 2 future Hall of Famers on ther hands. Without them no way in hell that will get you a championship. That is after all what we should be building towards. Not to just make the play offs. We could have done that with Cousins.
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Leonard became Leonard because has been drafted by the Spurs organization. No doubt about it.
European approach doesn't work, than you say the most European style organization is the San Antonio Spurs which is the best franchise in the last twenty years.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#57
#57
Livinthedream said:
Folks said that getting the number 2 pick was supposed to make this a slam dunk draft for us. Seems like it made it more complicated.
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At #7, we were looking at potential role players(Mikal vs. Bamba). At #2, we're now looking at potential franchise players(Doncic vs. Bagley).

To be honest, I think there's some people who have become unsure about Doncic after watching his recent games. A lot of excited NBA and Kings fans tuned in for the Euroleague Final 4 to watch Doncic for the first time. Many of them have not seen him play a single game, but he's been deemed as an elite prospect by the media, so that's where the hype built up from. All eyes were on him. In those 2 games, he was ok...but his deficiencies really stood out.
He was slow. He had trouble in both games getting by his defender whether it was a SG or a C. His lack of a quick first-step was evident. His athleticism, or there lack of, became a real question among fans who hadn't seen him before. He also didn't look aggressive. There were some possessions that stood out. He would have the ball in his hands with 12-15s left then try to create something, but couldn't, and just swung it to a teammate instead with 2-3s left. More regularly, there were a lot of times where he brought the ball up the floor, passed it, and stood at the 3pt line doing nothing. He played PG, but the gameplan didn't allow for him to showcase his playmaking ability. He didn't really show much as a playmaker despite being touted for as a 6'8 PG. However, I blame the gameplan on this. If I really had to compare how he played in those 2 games, he looked like the B version of Bogdan. Good IQ, solid passes, made some shots, above average D, but didn't really pop out anywhere.

It's been a very very long season for him with nearly non-stop basketball, but his athleticism has always been in question. Now that he's being evaluated as the potential #1 pick, everything is on the table. Athleticism is a big part of a player's scouting profile. So after NBA fans in general watched Doncic in those 2 games, I think they came away with their own conclusions instead of just going off the scout guys. Everything is put under a microscope, and they see that maybe Doncic isn't this home-run pick being advertised, or maybe he has certain flaws that they weren't aware about.

I think that's why we're seeing some Kings fans shifting towards Bagley or Porter Jr. Both of these guys have higher scoring potential than Doncic, and these fans believe that lack of scoring is the biggest problem for this young team.

There's a lot of pressure riding with this #2 pick. The Kings have to get it right. Do you go with a "safer pick" in Doncic? He's probably almost just as good as Bogdan is right now, but 6 years younger and 2inches taller. Or do you go with a "gamble" in Bagley who has the motor and drive of a superstar.

Here's Doncic's stats from those 2 games:
1) 16pts 7rebs 2asts 1stls 3tos on 4-12 FG, 2-6 3pt, 6-8 FT

2) 15pts 3rebs 4asts 1stlks 2tos on 3-8 FG, 1-4 3pt, 8-10 FT (a lot of his FT came from non-shooting attempts)
 
TaxMan

TaxMan

Starter
#58
#58
jcassio said:
Superstar or franchise player? If you’re talking about a franchise player (someone you build your team around), look again. As I said in my previous post, look past the Jordan’s, Kobe’s and LBJ’s and you’ll find examples of teams with multiple all-star talents that won championships without a franchise player that they built their team around. Not just the Pistons. Mavs, Celtics, Spurs, the list goes on. We can always argue about who was or wasn’t a franchise player on those teams. Is Dirk a 1st tier franchise player? Duncan? Garnett? Those are (were) all great players, but not players you would build around as in trading and drafting to put the most complementary players on the team with them.
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LOL. Yes, Dirk is a franchise player. As is Duncan. If you are top 50 all time player you are a franchise player. Not sure what your definition is. Top 10 all time?
 
Warhawk

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#59
#59
206Fan said:
At #7, we were looking at potential role players(Mikal vs. Bamba). At #2, we're now looking at potential franchise players(Doncic vs. Bagley).
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I keep seeing stuff like this (and I'm not replying to you directly, just using this sentence as a starting point to address other comments spread over multiple threads), how we have to nail the #2 pick, have to get a franchise player, etc.

For a team like ours, nothing changed. No matter where we are slated to pick, just get the BPA. That's it. There is no increased pressure that I see. Do your homework and get the guy you think will be the best of the group, position and need ignored. We can't pick for need. We have a decade of losing under our belt. Don't get too cute, don't outthink yourself. Get the player you want and go home.
 
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