Are we REALLY better off?

[HndsmCelt]

Are we better off? No, but maybe not WORSE off... just in a different place, you might call it a lateral movement. Yes Boogie is playing like a HOFer out there and it is easy and simple to say we traded the cow for magic beans. In the end though, every move taken and not taken boil down to wins and losses not big numbers by an individual player. With Boogie the task was simple, but not easy, build a team around him to help him win. The Maloofs were interested in doing the exact opposite, and when Randive rolled into to town with PDA and Mullin, they bungled their way through trying to build Warriors North with dumb draft picks and signings. By the time things settled a bit and Vlade got the reins, Boogie and his contract were a white elephant and they flinched. There is no real point in second guessing the decision, so be it. Now there is a MUCH different task at hand. With Vlade and Jeoger there is a plan and a vision of sorts BUT there is no guy to build a team around. There is however a style and direction that our younger core fit.

It seems to me that when I squint and look close especially at those fleeting moments when the team plays well, I can discern a pattern of play that resembles a style. When the kids run the court, hit cutters, or force space creating looks there seems to be an offense based on speed not muscle that could capitalize on a equally quick transition defense that is tenacious with steals and forcing turnovers. Although there is no franchise player on the court or even a star, our best and more or less consistent guys: Boggs, Fox and Skal can all do these things. That is also why Zach, Koufus and Hill are NOT helping. When the team plays their game of careful plodding ball dependent on a stronger interior game than your opponent our best players are forced to play to their weakness and have trouble capitalizing on their strengths. Like wise when you make Zach and Kufos run you doom them. The question at hand then is can the Kings build a team of guys that ll somehow fit this style of play, and will it translate into a winning team? I would hope that moving forward there will be no place on this team for guys that cannot run, pass and defend. This group cannot win games if they can't put up 100+ points a night... this is no Grind House.

As for Boogie and what might have been, its all pointless speculation now so I just wish him well and thoroughly enjoy watching him play against every other team in the league.

 

[dude12]

Boogie through 7 games: 29.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 5.9 apg, 1.6 spg, 2.1 bpg.

Those aren't just great numbers, those are historic, all-time great numbers.

But he's getting technicals and stuff!!

 

[allrightythen]

We are definitely a worse team now than a year ago, but that was intended. Trading Cuz was the start of a rebuild. Time will tell if it works out but any expectation that we would be better this year than last was unreasonable. The hope is that we have a better future. Rebuilds suck!

 

[itzcoatl]

I think we are worse off without Demarcus. That being said, we did not have a clear path to getting better. Our reputation as a franchise was in the can, we had unstable coach and GM, finnicky owner, no hope for getting quality free agents. DMC was basically the only good thing about the franchise for a long time. In a sense, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. Now we need to build through a rebuild, but the problem is we don't have a pick after the next draft. Which means we need to strike gold with the next draft and a couple of our assets need to develop into allstars or near allstars to have any real hope of improving this franchise.

 

[upinsmoke]

POST DELETED

Uncalled for.

It's true this is not the fun part of it though. With the players trying to jell together and develop as an individuals at the same time. These are true growing pains.

 

[Iced Espresso]

We never put what we needed to around Cuz & sold low.

Right now as long as Joerger can keep the locker room, we are fine. Old men & the young fellas were never going to win much despite some people's bizarre & irrational faith this year.

The only thing that really sucks is we have no 2019 pick.

 

[ockingsfan]

Here is the thing about DMC. If we would had kept him and signed him to the $200 million contract extension, the Kings would had lost their high lottery draft pick last year and would have no money to sign free agents for many years. Free agents and their agents wanted nothing to do with a DMC lead team.

It was either trade DMC and start a rebuild Or sign him and be stuck in no mans land (#8 seed to late lottery) for the next 5 years.

Vlade chose the rebuild, which I am fine with. DMC was great, but he came with a lot of drama. Drama I'm not sure was worth it for a team toiling in the lower mid tier of the NBA.

The rebuild will take a few years and it is essential we hit on this years lottery draft pick, since we don't have a 2019 pick.

But, we have some good young building blocks going forward, Fox, Skal, Bogdan will become quality starters with experience. Buddy can be a quality 6th man type of scorer. JJ can develop into a solid role player. WCS will be an enigma until he proves he can bring the intensity every night. Malichi and Papa are still big question marks. Giles, if he can remain healthy, has all- start potential.

I think the question of whether we are better off will be better answered in 2-3 years.

 

[ForlornKing]

The great irony in all of this is when we had Cuz, we played at the fastest pace in the league when we should have played slow.

Now we have kids and are playing at the slowest pace, when we should be playing at the fastest pace.

 

[CelticsFan]

If NO decides to trade Boogie this year will they get a better return then Vlade did?

 

[KingsFanSince85]

If they did they wouldn't make it to 5. Fox has physical gifts that set him way apart from other players of the persuasion you mention though.

True. And I loved Fox leading up to the draft and was one of his biggest proponents on this website. If he ends up the player we all hope and believe he can be, the trade won't be near as bad.

The real trick, though, was somehow getting a kid like Fox at #5 w/o having to give up Boogie. At some point they need to add talent without giving up their best players. That's what the successful teams are able to do whether it be through shrewd trades or finding the talent later in the draft. Remember, the Kings did that once with Isaiah Thomas but let him go too.

 

[SacTownKid]

Completely disagree on Vlade. And basketball is still played on the floor not off the floor. There were more than enough FA capable to play the role model for our young guys, while still fitting with what we should do on the floor.

They went with the opportunity to sign the type of a FA they don't usually get to land in Hill. Not a great fit, but still not terrible since Joerger likes to play two PG lineups. Personally, I've yet to see it work for him dating back to last year, but each coach has their own vision I guess. The Randolph signing was a Joerger gift all the way, no doubt. VC was a one year deal so no big. And yes basketball is played on the floor, and the biggest part of the equation is how they play I think it's the wrong style right now.

 

[HndsmCelt]

If NO decides to trade Boogie this year will they get a better return then Vlade did?

Yes, but he is now a retiring contract soit's apples and oranges.

 

[ppine]

It is hard to say. Fifty games from now we will have a much better answer.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Yeah, I think for the long haul we are better off. If this team continued to miss the playoffs we'd also lose our 2019 pick and have an increasingly disgruntled star player on our hands. I mean how long can we keep failing to build around the guy before the window slams shut. I realize we didn't get Chris Webber in this deal (unless the Giles comparisons turn out to be true) but a lot of this reminds me about when we dealt Richmond. For so long that guy was the only bright spot on the team and yet we only got a taste of the playoffs once during his tenure. My first reaction to his departure was anger but then when the strike/lockout ended and the Kings took to the court it was magic.

It's frustrating and the on court product sucks right now but I think we have real legitimate pieces that we can either build around or exchange for future assets. Also we don't have that 2019 pick so I'm hoping we make the most out of this next year's. It's not going to be instant like 1999 was but it might be a fun voyage.

And besides, I'm not going to just pick another team.

 

[pshn80]

The way the team is playing is clearly leading to anger, rash opinions, and disappointment. And I'm right there with everyone else. Everyone and everything is bad. Really really bad.

So the question begs... are we really better off now than where we were one year ago? I've always said the hardest thing to do in the NBA is get your superstar. The Kings had one. He was a flawed one. But he was a superstar. The Kings won ~30 games a year on the back of that man's immense talent alone. We're seeing right now what they would have been without him for the past many seasons.

It's a strange quandary we were in... we couldn't grab another high draft pick because DMC dragged our sorry franchise into the 10's of the draft every year, and obviously no one who's good wants to come to Sacramento. Be it a market thing or a DeMarcus thing (I think it's more market)

Right now all we have is a bunch of chances. Could some of them pan out? Sure. Could one of them be a superstar? That's to be determined. It's going to be hard for any one person to have the talent and numbers of DMC, and we'll eventually see once and for all if a bunch of character and singing kubaya together will lead to more wins or not.

At one point our fate was in a known superstar quality. DeMarcus Cousins. Now the fate of this franchise is in a whole lot of unknowns and "I hope so's."

The thought of our kids never reaching their "potential" and the Kings being terrible for the next 10 years... it's a very real chance. Honestly more real than one of them turning superstar. The light of potential I saw (or told myself I saw) over the offseason is fading. And I know it's early. And I know this thread is mostly just a way for me to vent a little so don't get too mad at me.

... I'd rather be competing with a chance of eventually getting it right around the known quantity than praying one of our shots eventually hits the target.

Your thoughts?

I think we are clearly better off. We are heading somewhere now - clearly. Our “year-ago-team” would easily beat our team as it is playing now. Is here any question that by year’s end Fox, Bogdanovic, Skal, Mason, and Jackson will be playing better? I don’t think so. And in the process the team play will steadily improve. All this will give us a much stronger base for next year. It s also possible tha one or more of the others will begin to show promise. In the meantime be prepared to see more of the same no matter how the rotation is changed. And there may be improvement tonight. We may not lose by 16 points. Or we may not.

 

[MizzouKing]

Here is the thing about DMC. If we would had kept him and signed him to the $200 million contract extension, the Kings would had lost their high lottery draft pick last year and would have no money to sign free agents for many years. Free agents and their agents wanted nothing to do with a DMC lead team.

THIS. And if we were going to be a 30ish win team anyway, I'd rather do it without the drama and with players I feel good cheering for. Also, with the new configuration we will be getting better sooner rather than (much) later.

 

[allrightythen]

I think we are clearly better off. We are heading somewhere now - clearly. Our “year-ago-team” would easily beat our team as it is playing now. Is here any question that by year’s end Fox, Bogdanovic, Skal, Mason, and Jackson will be playing better? I don’t think so. And in the process the team play will steadily improve. All this will give us a much stronger base for next year. It s also possible tha one or more of the others will begin to show promise. In the meantime be prepared to see more of the same no matter how the rotation is changed. And there may be improvement tonight. We may not lose by 16 points. Or we may not.

I highly doubt all our young guys work out and become stars or even solid NBA players but we don't really need that. We 1 or 2 to become stars and a couple more to be good NBA players and we will be in far better shape than we were. That hasn't happened yet but I could definitely see it happening. I think the team's ceiling is higher than it was, but the floor is clearly lower as well.

 

[pshn80]

The way the team is playing is clearly leading to anger, rash opinions, and disappointment. And I'm right there with everyone else. Everyone and everything is bad. Really really bad.

So the question begs... are we really better off now than where we were one year ago? I've always said the hardest thing to do in the NBA is get your superstar. The Kings had one. He was a flawed one. But he was a superstar. The Kings won ~30 games a year on the back of that man's immense talent alone. We're seeing right now what they would have been without him for the past many seasons.

The thought of our kids never reaching their "potential" and the Kings being terrible for the next 10 years... it's a very real chance. Honestly more real than one of them turning superstar. The light of potential I saw (or told myself I saw) over the offseason is fading. And I know it's early. And I know this thread is mostly just a way for me to vent a little so don't get too mad at me.

... I'd rather be competing with a chance of eventually getting it right around the known quantity than praying one of our shots eventually hits the target.

Your thoughts?

Second try. Your original post was so long that 5 lne response was lost when I tried to post it. My response abbreviated - clearly better off - Fox, Bogdanovic, Jackson, Mason and Skal will unquestionably be better by season’s end - good base for next year- our “year-ago-team would clearly beat this team today - maybe one or more of the others could prove of value - meantime, suck it up.

 

[origkds]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we only 7 games into a planned 2-3 year complete rebuild?

 

[upinsmoke]

I highly doubt all our young guys work out and become stars or even solid NBA players but we don't really need that. We 1 or 2 to become stars and a couple more to be good NBA players and we will be in far better shape than we were. That hasn't happened yet but I could definitely see it happening. I think the team's ceiling is higher than it was, but the floor is clearly lower as well.

If I was a betting man I would wager Fox and Skal have the highest chance of being all Stars with Buddy, WCS, Jackson and Mason being solid role players. Also you can't help liking what you see from Bogdan he's a plug and play nba ready talent. Malachi and Papagiannis are still interesting prospects imo. We get a really good shot at the draft again this year and we really should have a young but not too young group of guys to move forward with.

 

[NowImLost]

Uncalled for.

It's true this is not the fun part of it though. With the players trying to jell together and develop as an individuals at the same time. These are true growing pains.

I don't really think it's uncalled for but it's true.
Plus, my post got deleted because essentially it was the truth.
That doesn't surprise me either mods.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

I don't really think it's uncalled for but it's true.
Plus, my post got deleted because essentially it was the truth.
That doesn't surprise me either mods.

Your post was deleted because of a ****-ed out profanity directed at "y'all", not because it expressed negativity about the current makeup of the team. Keep your criticism of the team with the site's Forum Rules and it will not be deleted - perhaps to your surprise.

(See http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/faq-forum-rules.67349/ for a rules refresher - the post certainly violated rule #3 and could be argued to have violated some or all of rules #1, #2, and #4.)

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we only 7 games into a planned 2-3 year complete rebuild?

Nobody wants to hear it after a decade of futility, but trading Cousins was the first time in that entire stretch that we went into the next season without "We're making the playoffs this year" as the first check on the box.

So yes, this is year one. 7 games. Patience.

 

[The Hammer]

Fair or not, even provable or not, when almost every player on down the line is playing poorly and the team looks generally unprepared the finger of blame is going to go right to the coaches chair. Sometimes the ideology of a coach doesn't necessarily fit the talent on hand or vice versa. There are only a few ways out of it, you either build your team to suit the coach, find the right coach for your team, or one of both sides makes the adjustment to fit the other. Right now the players appear to be failing to get going with what the coach wants them to do. The ball is now in Joergers court we'll see what he does.

What this team is a "no way out of this" situation so it has to be put back on themselves and they are forced to figure it out. Speaking of the team and coach as a unit. Cousins, as great as he was, always created a mental scapegoat (justified or not -- doesn't matter) for himself, and it held him back.

The good thing about Joeger (and Vlade) is I think he gets this.

 

[hrdboild]

Nobody wants to hear it after a decade of futility, but trading Cousins was the first time in that entire stretch that we went into the next season without "We're making the playoffs this year" as the first check on the box.

So yes, this is year one. 7 games. Patience.

Which is exactly the problem in a nutshell. Fans and front office went into every season with unrealistic expectations relative to the talent on the roster and then the front office would spend the rest of the season trying to patch holes which could not be patched. Not once in 7 years was there ever a dedicated effort to form and carry out a long-term plan that would progress us from lottery team to actual contender. That's inexcusable. I can understand the relief some feel that we finally have accepted our fate as bottom dweller and started pooling first round picks in an effort to develop and grow from within. The mentality alone is progress. But at the same time, what's hard for me to ignore is that this new mentality only happened because we dumped the best player this franchise has ever drafted (in the Sacramento era) for very little value. It's possible Harry Giles and Buddy Hield both grow into big enough stars that we forget about DeMarcus but the odds are against it. I also remember what this felt like the last time it happened (circa 2008) and the long trail of empty promises and wasted draft picks that followed. There's certainly an opportunity here to build something special but forgive me for viewing it all through a "fooled me once" sideways glance.

 

[funkykingston]

None of this is new ground, but the reality is that the Kings missed their window with DeMarcus Cousins.

There is a LOT that the organization has done wrong. Too much to even think about trying to document. And Cousins bears some blame too. His attitude and inability to channel his emotions/lack of mental toughness hurt the team and lowered his value relative to his amazing talent.

But this really comes down to the Kings failing to draft well. It's that simple.

After Cousins they had four straight top 8 picks and failed not only to draft a second star - they didn't even draft a single starting caliber NBA player. And though I championed him in the draft, the jury is still out on WCS as being the fifth straight guy on that list.

Jimmer over Klay or Kawhi
TRob over Dame

Just those two draft nights could have changed the course of the franchise. Had Petrie taken Thompson and Lillard and dealt Tyreke as soon as he realized his work ethic wasn't up to snuff then the Kings could have had a sweet shooting backcourt and the most talented bigman in the league along with whatever Evans could have netted in trade. Then it's just filling in the other pieces.

Small market teams have to build through the draft and winning teams need more than one star player. The Kings landed one star and then failed miserably after that.

And if the team doesn't get turned around through this rebuild, it will almost certainly because of the exact same failure. We as Kings fans often have a built-in inferiority complex but you only have to look at what OKC has done as an even smaller market.

Talent wins. And the Kings missed their chance to add talent around Cousins for year after year to the point where even if they hit on a star in the lottery Cousins would be starting to leave his prime as the new kid was entering his.

They blew it. Now it just remains to be seen if they do it again.

 

[hrdboild]

What this team is a "no way out of this" situation so it has to be put back on themselves and they are forced to figure it out. Speaking of the team and coach as a unit. Cousins, as great as he was, always created a mental scapegoat (justified or not -- doesn't matter) for himself, and it held him back.

The good thing about Joeger (and Vlade) is I think he gets this.

People keep saying this, but looking at what DeMarcus actually did while he was here I'm not sure how you can say anything held him back. The season he's having this year is better than anything Shaquille O'Neal did in his highly celebrated career and it represents only incremental progress from what we saw last year in Sacramento. It's commonly said that New York is a tough place to play because the big stage tends to magnify mistakes but I think Sacramento is probably worse in that regard. It's the only game in town so nothing gets ignored. Ron Artest's dog gets sick and it's the top story in local sports for a few days. Animal cruelty charges! Kick him off the team! Turns out the dog was well-cared for, it just had an infection. Oops. And that's a very very small tip of an enormous iceberg. The TV play-by-play guy and the local paper routinely pick fights with certain players and then run them into the ground. Look at this season for example! It's been two weeks and people are already calling for the coach's head! It's just a constant stream of negativity. DeMarcus might be a better player if he grew a thicker skin or maybe he's so good because he wears his emotions on his sleeve. I'm tired of arguing the same thing over and over again so I'm not going to press it any more than this, but the extent to which this guy has been vilified despite being a positive influence in the community and a monster on the court is still hard for me to understand.

 

[Larry David]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we only 7 games into a planned 2-3 year complete rebuild?

Well now, see that's where it gets interesting.

How long does the team plan to rebuild?

The way they broke the #10 pick up to fill out the roster instead of just grabbing one chip, the way they signed vets instead of prospects with upside, the way the Kings-paid-media kept talking "young core," I think the Kings might half believe they already possessed most of the pieces for a scrappy young team, they'd add another key piece in the 2018 draft, and they'd just develop the hand they've drawn into a playoff team.

There were a lot of folks here to seemed to be of the same mind.

After 7 games, I think fans are starting to look at the size of the hole they dug. Also some prospects might not just be young. They might be young and have lower ceilings than they'd hope. I think that's why some fans are fustrated. They hoped for a quick-ish turn around to the long competency drought, and they now realize things are going to probably be jacked up for a long while longer.

I think the Kings are several years away from being good.

 

[SacTownKid]

What this team is a "no way out of this" situation so it has to be put back on themselves and they are forced to figure it out. Speaking of the team and coach as a unit. Cousins, as great as he was, always created a mental scapegoat (justified or not -- doesn't matter) for himself, and it held him back.

The good thing about Joeger (and Vlade) is I think he gets this.

If they can. It depends where the exact issues are stemming from. Is it individual preparedness? Is it a lack of effort? Is it a poor fit style of play? If this continues on too much longer it will eventually turn into the first two of those even if it all started with the third.

Right now the goal should be some sort of individual success. The problem I see is the rotation patterns being used make it extremely difficult for that to occur with some sort of consistency. If they can break through in that situation then great, if not, then we've all seen how this story ends.

 

[SacTownKid]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we only 7 games into a planned 2-3 year complete rebuild?

Yes, but the real issue is how bad they look. A rebuild isn't a flat line that jumps to it's peak in year 3. During that period you want to build individual skill level, but also asset value. Very rarely do you build an entire team without moving some of those young assets. If they don't accumulate numbers, they don't accumulate value, if they don't accumulate value you sit on them until they fall off your cap and nothing more. The Kings have done too much of that over the last 6 years or so. I do think you can't force 9 young players into the picture though. Right now Joergers bloated rotation could potentially put all assets at their baseline value so nobody fully tanks, but their top assets will be forced down to that same baseline in the process. Right now nobody is playing very well so they are all getting dinged.