[Game] Kings v. Wizards - Sunday, Oct. 29 - 3 PT
- Thread starter VF21
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I'm only going off the boxscore, but looks like Malachi made pretty good use of his time as did Mason. Sampson 4 pts, 4 boards in 7 min looks pretty good too.
Buddy's performance so far this year is a concern, especially seeing he was the main Cousins piece. Anyways at the end of the day we have the 3rd worst record in the league and unless a whole lot changes guess I will start getting excited about a top 5 pick.
Buddy's performance so far this year is a concern, especially seeing he was the main Cousins piece. Anyways at the end of the day we have the 3rd worst record in the league and unless a whole lot changes guess I will start getting excited about a top 5 pick.
We will likely be bottom 5 record-wise. Should come as no surprise in a rebuild.
I am comfortable saying, now, what I have been thinking for at least some time. I am not sold on Buddy, though it is still VERY early in his career.
However, I believe you must look at Buddy as a King and not "The King we traded Boogie For, THEREFORE...." period. He is just a young King right now, just like Justin, Fox, etc. Nothing forced just because of the trade. He has me shook in the sense that people expect so much of him, because of the trade. Let it rest for a bit. Maybe let Buddy rest for a bit too.
I am comfortable saying, now, what I have been thinking for at least some time. I am not sold on Buddy, though it is still VERY early in his career.
However, I believe you must look at Buddy as a King and not "The King we traded Boogie For, THEREFORE...." period. He is just a young King right now, just like Justin, Fox, etc. Nothing forced just because of the trade. He has me shook in the sense that people expect so much of him, because of the trade. Let it rest for a bit. Maybe let Buddy rest for a bit too.
Where were all of you in June of 2015 when I got chewed out here for making exactly that comparison? Cause let me tell you, it was a lonely island to be on before/during/after the draft --- this whole damn message board was convinced that Cauley-Stein was going to be the second coming of Bill Russell or something.
Yep. People need to consider everything we got for Buddy which in my book includes our pick that became Fox which we would have likely conveyed as part of that stupid albatross Omri trade and Jackson and Giles as well as Buddy. I don't think Buddy is going to be the cornerstone of this franchise but he very well could be a nice complementary piece. I do hold a lot more hope that Fox and Giles are 2/3rds of our future and that last piece will be drafted next year.
I hope Bogdan (and Fox to a lesser extent) can take some pressure off Buddy so that he can develop without the pressure of constantly being in Cousins's shadow.
I hope Bogdan (and Fox to a lesser extent) can take some pressure off Buddy so that he can develop without the pressure of constantly being in Cousins's shadow.
I wasn't on this board back then but I was with you in spirit, man. Willie was an old rookie he regressed and deferred at Kentucky. He was invisible in the final game. I wanted us to draft Myles Turner.
I likened the comparison of Thrill to Turner like I did T-Rob to Drummond, where you had 3 years of collegiate work vs one year, and you choose the pedigree over the potential.
Here's an issue I see with Willie, setting aside the defense and rebounding issue, and the milquetoast competitiveness, which is no small thing. When he has the ball at the high post he does NOTHING to further the offense.
I complimented him for his lack of turnovers a week ago, but I guess that will be more likely the case when you do nothing to facilitate the offense. This is what happens because we have ALL seen it too much already:
Willie catches the ball and the top of the key then (1) he looks to one side of the floor (2) he looks to the other side of the floor and (3) he looks to possibly the post player but he NEVER makes a successful pass to further the offense.
What does Willie do? He holds and holds the ball as precious seconds tick off the shot clock and he waits to make a handoff pass to the guard that puts the offense back at square one. If you have two teammates two inches apart that is what the defense wants! Willie is an uncertain and unskilled high post passer with one hand two hands chest pass overhead pass, it doesn't matter the type of pass, he can't make it!!!
The times I have seen Willie make a good pass is when he is one the move he makes a nice shuffle pass after a dribble or out of the post I have seen him make a good bounce pass. But having Willie, or Koufos for that matter, as a high post entry passer or facilitator to the offense is totally futile. Expecting players to do things they can't do is why you lose home games by 30.
I likened the comparison of Thrill to Turner like I did T-Rob to Drummond, where you had 3 years of collegiate work vs one year, and you choose the pedigree over the potential.
Here's an issue I see with Willie, setting aside the defense and rebounding issue, and the milquetoast competitiveness, which is no small thing. When he has the ball at the high post he does NOTHING to further the offense.
I complimented him for his lack of turnovers a week ago, but I guess that will be more likely the case when you do nothing to facilitate the offense. This is what happens because we have ALL seen it too much already:
Willie catches the ball and the top of the key then (1) he looks to one side of the floor (2) he looks to the other side of the floor and (3) he looks to possibly the post player but he NEVER makes a successful pass to further the offense.
What does Willie do? He holds and holds the ball as precious seconds tick off the shot clock and he waits to make a handoff pass to the guard that puts the offense back at square one. If you have two teammates two inches apart that is what the defense wants! Willie is an uncertain and unskilled high post passer with one hand two hands chest pass overhead pass, it doesn't matter the type of pass, he can't make it!!!
The times I have seen Willie make a good pass is when he is one the move he makes a nice shuffle pass after a dribble or out of the post I have seen him make a good bounce pass. But having Willie, or Koufos for that matter, as a high post entry passer or facilitator to the offense is totally futile. Expecting players to do things they can't do is why you lose home games by 30.
I had his player comparison to Chris Andersen.........................................But wtf. I don't get how anyone can keep defending Willie anymore. I thought he'd finally be the shotblocker we'd need next to Cousins because at that time, Cousins was only an average defender at best. However, Cousins has since improved to become a good defender...and we didn't really need much of Willie's "expertise" anymore...and Cousins is also gone now.
For me, Willie is a NBA role player. I think he'd excel as your 5th starter OR a backup PF/C.
I still think Willie is looking worse than he actually is because he's on a team full of incompetent defenders. We can't contain the perimeter for crap.
For me, Willie is a NBA role player. I think he'd excel as your 5th starter OR a backup PF/C.
I still think Willie is looking worse than he actually is because he's on a team full of incompetent defenders. We can't contain the perimeter for crap.
I think Willie is an overall good defender. He's just an awful shot blocker for his size. He should be swatting away, at minimum, 1.5 shots per game.
I agree with everyone on the high post issues. We don't have the personnel to run the high post. Willie and Koufos are actually pretty solid interior passers but they are terrible high post passers. Skal is just not good at passing period and Papa isn't even good enough to receive the ball in the high post. Let alone do anything positive when he gets it. Our defense gets eaten alive by the pick and roll but for whatever reason, we hardly use it unless Bogdan has the ball.
Other teams are shooting wide open 3's on us all game because they run the pick and roll and then pass it once we have to double. Meanwhile the Kings hardly ever get wide open 3's because they keep running the high post offense. 90% of the time, the ball is handed back to the PG or SG with 12 seconds left on the clock with zero being accomplished as far as drawing double teams or getting guys open. At that point it's just up to the ball handler to get something done quickly...which leads to poor decisions and shots. A lot of the offensive woes are due to the players just not playing well at all but a lot of it is on Joerger's shoulders because he's not playing to their strengths at all.
I agree with everyone on the high post issues. We don't have the personnel to run the high post. Willie and Koufos are actually pretty solid interior passers but they are terrible high post passers. Skal is just not good at passing period and Papa isn't even good enough to receive the ball in the high post. Let alone do anything positive when he gets it. Our defense gets eaten alive by the pick and roll but for whatever reason, we hardly use it unless Bogdan has the ball.
Other teams are shooting wide open 3's on us all game because they run the pick and roll and then pass it once we have to double. Meanwhile the Kings hardly ever get wide open 3's because they keep running the high post offense. 90% of the time, the ball is handed back to the PG or SG with 12 seconds left on the clock with zero being accomplished as far as drawing double teams or getting guys open. At that point it's just up to the ball handler to get something done quickly...which leads to poor decisions and shots. A lot of the offensive woes are due to the players just not playing well at all but a lot of it is on Joerger's shoulders because he's not playing to their strengths at all.
I'm not too confident in Hield right now. It's not so much his abilities that worry me but his mentality & his choices on the floor. I'm not ready to sign off on him but I'm definitely lower on him than some of our younger guys who seem to have a better sense of how to play the game correctly. Cauley-Stein seems to be heading down an Ed Davis path for me (with better passing but worse shot blocking). That's a useful player don't get me wrong but it's not what you'd hope coming from that pick. Again, I think it's too early to give up on these kids, and I'd like to at least see Hield & Cauley-Stein play until the trade deadline before having a firmer stance.
However, I think a Hield for OG Anunoby or Taurean Prince deal could make a lot of sense down the road if I'm seeing more of the same from Hield. Bogdanovic is looking great so far and defends his position well too (something I was worried about). Bogdan could easily be our starting SG of the future with Richardson being a solid backup at SG. Then you have Fox at PG with Mason backing him up and you have Anunoby/Prince & Jackson at SF.
Part of me thinks when our young guys start to figure it out that our lineups will be best with Labissiere at C. If he continues to get stronger and improve his rebounding, I don't see why not. Giles development and health could change that viewpoint considering if he becomes what he can be, I don't see how your lineup wouldn't be better with him at C.But when it comes to Giles, I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch. I see Fox, Bogdanovic, & Labissiere as the core young pieces at the moment, and to me, if we grab a guy like Anunoby in a trade and draft a guy like Porter with our 1st round pick this year, you could have a future team like:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Anunoby / Jackson
PF - Porter / Giles
C - Labissiere / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis
or if Giles becomes what we hope he will become:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Porter / Jackson
PF - Labissiere/ Anunoby
C - Giles / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis
However, I think a Hield for OG Anunoby or Taurean Prince deal could make a lot of sense down the road if I'm seeing more of the same from Hield. Bogdanovic is looking great so far and defends his position well too (something I was worried about). Bogdan could easily be our starting SG of the future with Richardson being a solid backup at SG. Then you have Fox at PG with Mason backing him up and you have Anunoby/Prince & Jackson at SF.
Part of me thinks when our young guys start to figure it out that our lineups will be best with Labissiere at C. If he continues to get stronger and improve his rebounding, I don't see why not. Giles development and health could change that viewpoint considering if he becomes what he can be, I don't see how your lineup wouldn't be better with him at C.But when it comes to Giles, I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch. I see Fox, Bogdanovic, & Labissiere as the core young pieces at the moment, and to me, if we grab a guy like Anunoby in a trade and draft a guy like Porter with our 1st round pick this year, you could have a future team like:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Anunoby / Jackson
PF - Porter / Giles
C - Labissiere / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis
or if Giles becomes what we hope he will become:
PG - Fox / Mason
SG - Bogdanovic / Richardson
SF - Porter / Jackson
PF - Labissiere/ Anunoby
C - Giles / Cauley-Stein / Papagiannis
His milquetoast competitiveness is disconcerting along with defensive prowess that has never come to fruition. He actually played his best D the 1st half of his rookie season. Then POOF it disappeared.
When the league started going smaller, it was in response to improved shooting on the front line. Your center and non-center needed to be able to defend away from the hoop if NOT able to be a plus contributor on interior as post defender or weak side shot blocker / intimidator. In other words, your bigs need to do one or other, defend at or above rim or move feet laterally away from the rim on pick and roll and challenge shooters and rotate back.
The value of a big defensively nowadays is predicated on being able to provide respectable resistance in one area (interior or perimeter) if not both (interior and perimeter). Well the sad reality is that WE WERE PROMISED BOTH WITH WCS....AND GOT NEITHER!!!
Remember, Willie was suppose to be a three position player? Not quite! He was suppose to be able to play the 3 /4 /5 and be a versatile gazelle flying all over the place. What happened to that guy?!?? MIA!
I think it is fair to say at this point he is a 5 who doesn't defend that well on interior or perimeter besides occasional flashes. He is not a particularly quick jumper. He doesn't play angles well. He doesn't like physical contact. He doesn't do his work early. And perhaps most importantly he doesn't seem to be mentally or emotionally determined to be elite. He doesn't takes enough pride or show enough willingness to do the dirty work.
He would rather paint flowers with watercolors and add to his Gucci wardrobe than be a bad ass.
When the league started going smaller, it was in response to improved shooting on the front line. Your center and non-center needed to be able to defend away from the hoop if NOT able to be a plus contributor on interior as post defender or weak side shot blocker / intimidator. In other words, your bigs need to do one or other, defend at or above rim or move feet laterally away from the rim on pick and roll and challenge shooters and rotate back.
The value of a big defensively nowadays is predicated on being able to provide respectable resistance in one area (interior or perimeter) if not both (interior and perimeter). Well the sad reality is that WE WERE PROMISED BOTH WITH WCS....AND GOT NEITHER!!!
Remember, Willie was suppose to be a three position player? Not quite! He was suppose to be able to play the 3 /4 /5 and be a versatile gazelle flying all over the place. What happened to that guy?!?? MIA!
I think it is fair to say at this point he is a 5 who doesn't defend that well on interior or perimeter besides occasional flashes. He is not a particularly quick jumper. He doesn't play angles well. He doesn't like physical contact. He doesn't do his work early. And perhaps most importantly he doesn't seem to be mentally or emotionally determined to be elite. He doesn't takes enough pride or show enough willingness to do the dirty work.
He would rather paint flowers with watercolors and add to his Gucci wardrobe than be a bad ass.
I do think Willie has progressed as a defender since coming into the league. His awareness on rotations is better and he's stronger on the boards than he used to be -- I remember watching him play an entire game without boxing out once in summer league. He's at least picked up some fundamentals. He's also worked on improving his jumper and his little half hook shot. But Blob made some good points about his role in the offense. He's not a triple threat catching the ball at the top of the key so what good is he doing facilitating from that spot?
What bothers me the most is that every now and then he'll have a max effort game that makes you think he could be legitimate star and then he reverts back into coasting mode for the next 2 weeks. I just don't get the impression that he wants it bad enough. Derrick Williams had the same problem -- he should have been a star if he had any kind of intensity at all but he just didn't care. He was happy collecting a paycheck. I think Willie cares but he just doesn't have the motor of a top defender nor does he appear to take it personally when the other team scores. As an athletic 7 footer Willie will always have a role on a team somewhere and he'll be a pretty good rotation player for a while but he's not going to be all-defense at any point unless he does a complete 180 in attitude and he's not a liability on offense as an energy big but he's also not a huge asset either.
That shouldn't bother me as much as it does, but the lingering impression I still have from that 2015 draft is that there was a ton of high level talent left on the board when we picked and we went with the role-player instead. Myles Turner and Devin Booker are already stars. Stanley Johnson is still a bulldog on defense and he's starting to put it together offensively too. If Detroit keeps playing as well as they have the first couple weeks there's no chance of prying him loose from Stan Van Gundy. Kelly Oubre has forced his way into the starting lineup on a pretty good Washington team. Even Emmanuel Mudiay is starting to show signs of progress after 2 mostly forgettable seasons in Denver. You're not going to hit on every draft pick but we've routinely missed on these kinds of players year after year after year and it's so demoralizing.
What bothers me the most is that every now and then he'll have a max effort game that makes you think he could be legitimate star and then he reverts back into coasting mode for the next 2 weeks. I just don't get the impression that he wants it bad enough. Derrick Williams had the same problem -- he should have been a star if he had any kind of intensity at all but he just didn't care. He was happy collecting a paycheck. I think Willie cares but he just doesn't have the motor of a top defender nor does he appear to take it personally when the other team scores. As an athletic 7 footer Willie will always have a role on a team somewhere and he'll be a pretty good rotation player for a while but he's not going to be all-defense at any point unless he does a complete 180 in attitude and he's not a liability on offense as an energy big but he's also not a huge asset either.
That shouldn't bother me as much as it does, but the lingering impression I still have from that 2015 draft is that there was a ton of high level talent left on the board when we picked and we went with the role-player instead. Myles Turner and Devin Booker are already stars. Stanley Johnson is still a bulldog on defense and he's starting to put it together offensively too. If Detroit keeps playing as well as they have the first couple weeks there's no chance of prying him loose from Stan Van Gundy. Kelly Oubre has forced his way into the starting lineup on a pretty good Washington team. Even Emmanuel Mudiay is starting to show signs of progress after 2 mostly forgettable seasons in Denver. You're not going to hit on every draft pick but we've routinely missed on these kinds of players year after year after year and it's so demoralizing.
