To tank or not to tank (split from game thread)

funkykingston

funkykingston

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#1
#1
ockingsfan said:
Tonight's game will go a long way in determining if we should Tank or go hard for the Playoffs.

A Win tonight, we are only 1/2 game out of the playoffs. I don't see Coach letting up on the drive for the playoffs, if we win.

A Loss tonight, and reality needs to set in soon and Coach Joeger needs to start playing the rookies extended minutes the rest of the season.
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Objectively this team should tank. It's the difference between having a top 10 pick in a draft that is unusually strong up top and not having a draft pick at all.

For a team that is now committed to rebuilding, that's a piece they have to have. Especially with the Pelican's pick being top 3 protected. The Kings don't want to be in situation of having no first round picks at all.
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#2
#2
funkykingston said:
Objectively this team should tank. It's the difference between having a top 10 pick in a draft that is unusually strong up top and not having a draft pick at all.

For a team that is now committed to rebuilding, that's a piece they have to have. Especially with the Pelican's pick being top 3 protected. The Kings don't want to be in situation of having no first round picks at all.
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You've got a young players who are not going to play to lose, which is the problem I always have when the discussion turns to "tanking". You certainly don't want to instill a losing mentality at this point. And, from what Joerger has said, he has no intention of coaching to lose. They've gutted the team and, especially with the injuries, the chances of the kids winning most of the time are slim. If they do it, however, more power to them. The culture of winning would be better ingrained than with any other possible scenario - and we need that just as much as anything else.
 
Iced Espresso

Iced Espresso

Starter
#3
#3
ockingsfan said:
Tonight's game will go a long way in determining if we should Tank or go hard for the Playoffs.

A Win tonight, we are only 1/2 game out of the playoffs. I don't see Coach letting up on the drive for the playoffs, if we win.

A Loss tonight, and reality needs to set in soon and Coach Joeger needs to start playing the rookies extended minutes the rest of the season.
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I don't think we should be doing anything but playing the young fellas.

Win or lose.

Of course Joerger is going to try and win games and mix the young fellas in when/where he can.
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

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#5
#5
VF21 said:
You've got a young players who are not going to play to lose, which is the problem I always have when the discussion turns to "tanking". You certainly don't want to instill a losing mentality at this point. And, from what Joerger has said, he has no intention of coaching to lose. They've gutted the team and, especially with the injuries, the chances of the kids winning most of the time are slim. If they do it, however, more power to them. The culture of winning would be better ingrained than with any other possible scenario - and we need that just as much as anything else.
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Tanking never comes from the players. They don't care about the team's draft status.

Sometimes the coaches are complicit in it (resting guys who don't really need rest et) but mostly tanking is a function of front office decisions.

Vlade traded Cousins & Casspi and waived Barnes. That leaves the team with no stars, no real small forwards and a roster full of veteran role players and doe eyed youngsters. Add in the unexpected injuries (Gay of course but also Afflalo, Temple & Richardson) and it's clear that Vlade has made his play.

What I was saying is that objectively speaking it's better for this team to lose.

But in reality there isn't a choice of tanking or not tanking. Divac has set this team up to lose because that's in his best interest right now while Joerger and the players are going to try to win because that's what's in their best interests right now.
 
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ockingsfan

ockingsfan

Starter
#6
#6
funkykingston said:
Objectively this team should tank. It's the difference between having a top 10 pick in a draft that is unusually strong up top and not having a draft pick at all.

For a team that is now committed to rebuilding, that's a piece they have to have. Especially with the Pelican's pick being top 3 protected. The Kings don't want to be in situation of having no first round picks at all.
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I feel the same, not sure the coach and players agree though. ;)
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#8
#8
funkykingston said:
Tanking never comes from the players. They don't care about the team's draft status.

Sometimes the coaches are complicit in it (resting guys who don't really need rest et) but mostly tanking is a function of front office decisions.

Vlade traded Cousins & Casspi and waived Barnes. That leaves the team with no stars, no real small forwards and a roster full of veteran role players and doe eyed youngsters. Add in the unexpected injuries (Gay of course but also Afflalo, Temple & Richardson) and it's clear that Vlade has made his play.

What I was saying is that objectively speaking it's better for this team to lose.

But in reality there isn't a choice of tanking or not tanking. Divac has set this team up to lose because that's in his best interest right now while Joerger and the players are going to try to win because that's what's in their best interests right now.
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I don't know about that. If the coach has security (first year of the deal), and the ownership, FO, fanbase would feel aggrieved by him coaching the team to the 11th seed, as well as the fact that it might not be in his long term interests with a less talented team in coming years to work with with loss of pick and lack of experience for the youth, Joerger might start thinking twice.

Is Temple playing tonight? That might hurt the tank and add a SF
 
funkykingston

funkykingston

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#9
#9
Kingsfan23 said:
I don't know about that. If the coach has security (first year of the deal), and the ownership, FO, fanbase would feel aggrieved by him coaching the team to the 11th seed, as well as the fact that it might not be in his long term interests with a less talented team in coming years to work with with loss of pick and lack of experience for the youth, Joerger might start thinking twice.

Is Temple playing tonight? That might hurt the tank and add a SF
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I don't know how much Joerger can do to help a tank. In years past you could shut down Boogie and losses would stack up.

Now?

How much worse are the Kings if they start Skal over Tolliver? Or give big minutes to Richardson instead of Temple, McLemore or Afflalo?
 
VF21

VF21

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#12
#12
Kingsfan23 said:
I don't know about that. If the coach has security (first year of the deal), and the ownership, FO, fanbase would feel aggrieved by him coaching the team to the 11th seed, as well as the fact that it might not be in his long term interests with a less talented team in coming years to work with with loss of pick and lack of experience for the youth, Joerger might start thinking twice.

Is Temple playing tonight? That might hurt the tank and add a SF
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Coaches do not coach to lose. And, as far as the fanbase goes, if you're insinuating that fans for the most part what a team to tank for better draft picks, you're sadly mistaken. Fans on message boards? Maybe. The folks spending their hard-earned money to take the family to a game? Oh hell no.

Joerger's job is to instill a culture of heart, hustle, energy and effort. As funky pointed out, his hands can be tied somewhat by the players the front office gives him to work with, but the idea that any coach wants to coach his team to lose is ridiculous.

Hurt the tank? Good grief. The mere idea that some Kings fans would vocally root for a tank just sickens me. It did last time and it does now.
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#13
#13
Yuck, I can't believe that once again I am reading Tank talk especially in the month of February. I get where the talk comes from but has been the same conversation every year for over a decade. Sure we lost our franchise player, and our best if not only hope to land a legit star is the draft,but I just can never root for the Kings to loose any game any night. There is also the age old problem of team culture. It is just plain counter-intuitive to expect to build a winning culture while either directly or indirectly encouraging losses. So when Funky Kingston points out that Vlade had essentially created all the necessary conditions for a tanked season, Vlade is now in many ways at cross purposes with coach Joeger, and the players especially the vets who not only want to win every night but HAVE to as part of any attempt to build the winning culture that this team desperately needs. To wit, I am not sure that a youth rebellion that refuses to loose and continues to scrap away getting wins is not a bad thing even if it does mean loosing the Chicago pick.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#14
#14
As far as the vets on this team wanting the playoffs, I feel no empathy for them because IMO they are the ones who got us here. They failed their jobs that we are in this position of nether between losing pick and playoffs, and us having to rebuild shipping Cuz out.
 
kingsboi

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#15
#15
The front office has established it's preference on tanking. The players and coach aren't going to follow suite and you don't want them to. The best thing the coach can do is continue to give more minutes to the younger players and the only vets you would want to see play are DC, Lawson & Koufos.
 
VF21

VF21

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#16
#16
kingsboi said:
The front office has established it's preference on tanking. The players and coach aren't going to follow suite and you don't want them to. The best thing the coach can do is continue to give more minutes to the younger players and the only vets you would want to see play are DC, Lawson & Koufos.
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Of course, the way players keep dropping like flies, that might not be a problem.
 
HndsmCelt

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#17
#17
Kingsfan23 said:
As far as the vets on this team wanting the playoffs, I feel no empathy for them because IMO they are the ones who got us here. They failed their jobs that we are in this position of nether between losing pick and playoffs, and us having to rebuild shipping Cuz out.
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I am reasonably sure that DMC was not traded because of the failings of Collision and Koufos.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#18
#18
Those that are against tanking given where franchise is currently just don't understand what it takes to build a contender.

The absolute worst thing this franchise can do now is make the play offs. For a team that has specifically gone into a full rebuild mode, making the play offs this year does much more damage than it does good.

The rebuilding franchise really goes through a number of phases until it matures into a perennial contender

Phase 1: Asset accumulation and player development
Phase 2: Learn to compete every game
Phase 3: Learn how to win
Phase 4: Mature into a contender.

This franchise is clearly in Phase 1. Accumulate assets (i.e. young players and draft picks) and develop what you have. While this team has a handful of good, interesting prospects, none of them a franchise level players which is what each contending team needs.

Once the team accumulates the assets where they are comfortable that they have a team to go forward with which will be ready to be contended with maturation and some solid FA additions, they move to phase 2 of learning how to compete and play hard every time they go onto the court.

With continuous effort and players maturing and improving, teams start to figure out how to win games that they used to lose (Phase 3).

When your franchise and star players start hitting their prime, you start adding FA pieces to fill our roles and round out the roster when turns you into a contender (Phase 4)

I find it funny that people want this roster to go straight to Phase 3 to make the play offs when they really should be at Phase 1.
 
sono

sono

Starter
#19
#19
Not a good idea, with Vivek pulling all the strings. And there's a risk losing the 1st rounder to the Sixers. Aren't we owe them?
 
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funkykingston

funkykingston

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#20
#20
sono said:
Not a good idea, with Vivek pulling all the strings. And there's a risk losing the 1st rounder to the Sixers. Aren't we owe them?
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The Sixers have the option to swap picks this draft and own the Kings' 2019 1st rounder outright.

Nothing to be done about the pick swap but the goal is to improve the team significantly enough this offseason and next season & summer to minimize the hurt of that 2019 pick.

To still be floundering then and hand over a top 3 (worst of all #1 overall) pick to Philly would be yet another awful moment in Kings fandom.
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#21
#21
No one wants to root for their team to lose. It is more a matter of would you rather win a few battles and lose the war?

If the victor of the war has the better shot of winning a championship then I prefer to win the war.

Coach and players are not going to throw games. Unless your maybe Byron Scott or one of the other tank commanders. Coach and players will do what they do game to game, season to season.

Its on your FO to look ahead at the overall war.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#22
#22
Suicide King said:
No one wants to root for their team to lose. It is more a matter of would you rather win a few battles and lose the war?

If the victor of the war has the better shot of winning a championship then I prefer to win the war.

Coach and players are not going to throw games. Unless your maybe Byron Scott or one of the other tank commanders. Coach and players will do what they do game to game, season to season.

Its on your FO to look ahead at the overall war.
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Even if players and coaches won't thow games and will play to win, this team doesn't have anywhere near the talent to actually win!
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#23
#23
You dont have to root for us to even lose. To borrow from a post on reddit, you can root for one or more of the following:
1 - losses by the 76ers and Pelicans. Only caveat is for Pels not to jump into top 3
2 - depending where you stand on wanting us to still make the playoffs. root for wins by Nuggets, Blazers, Mavs and T Wolves. I imagine this to be the harder option for some.
3 - Wins by the Hornets,Bucks,Magic,Heat and Knicks. Helps our draft position without hurting us directly, barring we are playing vs. them.
4 - Bonus- Root for the Lakers to finish with no better than the 4th pick. They would lose pick to 76ers. Why? Because its the Lakers.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#24
#24
Kings need to keep this pick. It seems like people rooting for them to lose the pick, are the same people rooting for Vlade to fail. What happens if Vlade fails? The Kings get completely screwed. So in the end, you're rooting for the Kings to be screwed.

Maybe people don't understand how the draft works... but keeping our draftpick is the single-most important thing right now.
 
SacTownKid

SacTownKid

Hall of Famer
#25
#25
If "tanking" means playing the less experienced players then by all means tank away! I see no reason to play much of the rotation he's giving the majority of minutes and shots to considering the only benefactor will be the players this summer on their next deals with another team. And if they are factored into the plans moving forward then I'm not sure we know what us fans are getting into but I have a feeling the ceiling there isn't very high in there.
 
IfAt1st

IfAt1st

Starter
#27
#27
I don't understand the question.

Whether fans want them to tank or not, they are, and they will.
Anyone who said "Boogie hasn't won enough when he was here - never more than ~30 wins rarh rarh rarh!" simply cannot turn around and say they want this roster to win.

There is not one NBA-quality starter on the roster.
They can not consistently win (other than once-in-a-blue-moon or to teams that are more blatantly tanking that game).
That's the reality.
So assuming this hypothetical fan wants his or her team to be in the playoffs at some point in the near future, then their team obviously needs more talent to compete.

Well, how are the Kings supposed to get talent?
Free agency? Don't make me laugh - that ship has sailed. And Vivek (and the mysterious ninja "Front Office" that makes these franchise-exploding decisions) sunk it.

So obviously they need draft picks.
Oh, wait - they traded those away trying to get to the playoffs this year - but, wait.... they just traded the playoffs away this year for 1 draft pick.

There simply is no way forward for this franchise WITHOUT tanking.
How is it possible for them to get enough talent to compete in the NBA, other than by losing as much as possible this year and the next (at the least)?
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#29
#29
Suicide King said:
You dont have to root for us to even lose. To borrow from a post on reddit, you can root for one or more of the following:
1 - losses by the 76ers and Pelicans. Only caveat is for Pels not to jump into top 3
2 - depending where you stand on wanting us to still make the playoffs. root for wins by Nuggets, Blazers, Mavs and T Wolves. I imagine this to be the harder option for some.
3 - Wins by the Hornets,Bucks,Magic,Heat and Knicks. Helps our draft position without hurting us directly, barring we are playing vs. them.
4 - Bonus- Root for the Lakers to finish with no better than the 4th pick. They would lose pick to 76ers. Why? Because its the Lakers.
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Plenty of moral clarity in rooting for 3, as I have all season. Ideally, they'd all pass Philly (most have, and even Orlando is showing some surprising signs of improvement post-Ibaka, maybe it will actually help them by properly aligning their roster) and provide a "firewall" from 11-14 so that the west teams that fall short of the playoffs still end up at the 10th pick or better.
 
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