Sure he and his coaches have to take some of the blame, but most of the blame goes on the players. Muss is not out there fumbeling the ball at the end of the game or shooting horribly like Bibby is etc.. And the compliants about his subbing how it is "musical chairs" well when the team is 22-29 you have to try something differant and get differant guys in there and no I don't mean the young guys because Williams and Price in there would not help although it couldn't be much worse. It seems to me you that are complaining about the subs were doing the same thing the last eight years when Adelman was here too with his sub pattern.
Why is all the blame put on Muss??
- Thread starter BRad1055
- Start date
Miles and Miles
G-League
I wouldn't say all the blame is being placed on Muss or everyone wouldn't be calling for a trade. But the team is out of control. Artest is subbing himself. No plays are being run. Timeouts can't be called effectivly. The team isn't ready to play at the start, coming out of timeouts, etc. They aren't movitvated at all.
Ryle
Starter
You know what's kind of ironic is that these were some of the very same issues people(myself included) were complaining about last year prior.
I'm not really sure where to point the finger but I think we can all agree that whatever this is it is not working.
Heuge
Starter
but you never make every opportunity to rip on RA...
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I think the natural cycle of pro basketball: "birth" - growth - maturity -age - decay - death - has a lot more to do with the performance of this team than Muss. We're in the decay stage now. The Kings won't die until Petrie finally comes to grips and pulls the plug. I think Petrie's unwillingness to pull the plug is the primary reason we haven't been "reborn" and can look hopefully to the future. This patient has been dying for over 2 years now. He just hasn't realized it. Muss probably didn't realize that he was taking over hospice care when he signed onto this team.
If Petrie pulls the plug, the pressure on Muss will be relieved because the people that believe (incorrectly, in my opinion) that this team as it is now constituted is a legitimate playoff team will also come to grips. And Muss won't have to deal with vets who think they know it all. The younger guys are more malleable.
kennadog
Dog On It!
Since it has been going on for so long that even the fans have know it, if Muss didn't realize it, he's even more clueless than I already thought.
Nope. There's more than enough blame to go around to all concerned.
Muss didn't fumble the ball but he did draw up the play that had Ron bringing the ball up the court. AND it was really clear by that time that Artest was understandably tired.
Nope. Wrong again. You don't just switch people out like ice hockey. A team needs cohesiveness. Players need to learn to work off each other. That comes with repetition and experience. The constant switching of players only serves to destroy whatever kind of rhythm they may have been able to get going.
Ah, the requisite comparison to Rick Adelman.
1. The guy out there in the suit is clearly NOT Rick Adelman and will most likely NEVER attain the kind of success record Rick Adelman has amassed. To try and compare the two situations is totally irrelevant, especially in the cases of the majority of people here who DIDN'T complain.
2. Not everyone complained about Adelman's substitutions. If anything, the complaint was that he didn't go past the 8 man rotation. Very different situation.
A lot of us have been quite adamant that this current group of players isn't going anywhere, that the pieces won't fit into the big picture properly and that changes need to be made.
Having said that, however, I have to point out that the lack of direction from the bench as far as coaching goes is getting more and more obvious and more and more painful to watch. Musselman in in over his head - and sinking fast.
quick dog
Starter
If the Kings had Steve Nash and his friends, or Dirk Nowitzki and his friends, Kings fans would be demanding that Eric Musselman be named NBA Coach of the Year.
I think it is nonsense to blame a coach when the players routinely miss free-throws, jumpers, and lay-ups. The Kings are simply not very good, individually, or as a team. No one really knows how good or bad Musselman and the coaches really are.
He has become a convenient scape-goat, as is to be expected.
I think it is nonsense to blame a coach when the players routinely miss free-throws, jumpers, and lay-ups. The Kings are simply not very good, individually, or as a team. No one really knows how good or bad Musselman and the coaches really are.
He has become a convenient scape-goat, as is to be expected.
Are you watching the games, quick dog? I take umbrage at the implication that I'm conveniently making Musselman a scapegoat.
It is NOT nonsense to blame a coach for a team that is not well-prepared, especially when you can see by watching the sidelines that he's often clueless.
Granted, the Kings are not very good but a good coach can make a bad team look at least fair. A bad coach can make a mediocre team look horrible and that's how I perceive the difference.
The blanket comment "No one really knows how good or bad Musselman and the coaches really are" isn't really true. There are any number of people on this board alone who might not be able to do the job but they can certainly spot when it isn't being done right...
It is NOT nonsense to blame a coach for a team that is not well-prepared, especially when you can see by watching the sidelines that he's often clueless.
Granted, the Kings are not very good but a good coach can make a bad team look at least fair. A bad coach can make a mediocre team look horrible and that's how I perceive the difference.
The blanket comment "No one really knows how good or bad Musselman and the coaches really are" isn't really true. There are any number of people on this board alone who might not be able to do the job but they can certainly spot when it isn't being done right...
Kingster
Hall of Famer
When you get an offer invoving big $ and the prospect of a head coaching position with a good organization, there might be the human tendency to ignore some of the negatives.
The problem here is coaching. I learned very early (and the hard way, I might add) to adapt your game to the players that you have. You don't try to change the players and their tendencies. Good coaches make these adjustments, regardless of the players' abilities. If Muss knows his team now (50 games - from another thread) then he knows the changes that need to be made.
The problem with this roster is that half the team is made for a set play offense, while the other half is a tailor-made high post motion offense. That doesn't mean that Muss is off the hook, however. Proper substitutions can take advantage of the roster issue.
Finally, game ending situations are almost always on coaches. You deal with things in practice so that a mere reminder will work in the game. You should not have to draw up anything "new", and you should ALWAYS put the ball in the hands of your BEST ball handler.
The problem with this roster is that half the team is made for a set play offense, while the other half is a tailor-made high post motion offense. That doesn't mean that Muss is off the hook, however. Proper substitutions can take advantage of the roster issue.
Finally, game ending situations are almost always on coaches. You deal with things in practice so that a mere reminder will work in the game. You should not have to draw up anything "new", and you should ALWAYS put the ball in the hands of your BEST ball handler.
sloter
Starter
I've been staying out of these Musselman threads for a while to see how much all the people who were cheering for Artest - Pedja deal blame the whole thing on Musselman. It could never be the talent, its all just the coach ? The talent that we have with this team now is worse than what we had before Pedja trade (remember Bonzi?) and the record is roughly the same, yet Adelman people have been calling for Musselman's head from day one? Discuss.
gunks
Hall of Famer
Muss is a big problem...But I think a lot of the blame should be placed on Petrie...He put this mess of a roster together. It's hard to win games when our frontcourt consists of a 7 footer who thinks he's a PG, a PF who is not even taller then our SG, and SAR...Who seems to be putting in less and less effort every game. What did Petrie do to address this last offseason? Ah yes..He signed Mo Taylor, someone who couldnt even get PT on the Knicks! Well done!
Kingster
Hall of Famer
Totally agree that you shouldn't have to draw up anything new at the end of games. And I'm dying to find out if Muss is really putting new stuff in at the last minute. If anybody knows, I'd sure like to find out. Just looking at the games, there seems to be little consistency in what goes on in the last few minutes from one game to the next, but it's hard for me to really know. But regarding the "best ball handler", probably the best is Miller if you define "ball handler" the way I would - beginning the offense. If you mean dribbling, then Bibby would be the best on this team, but unfortunately that says more about how lousy this team is compared to other teams with the point guard position than it does about how good Bibby is at "ball handling".
I don't lay all the blame on Muss. I think he is responsible for making our roster play well below the level they are capable of, but considering the upcoming draft, that's not necessarily a bad thing. It can be seen as partially compensating for the GM and owner mistakes that left us with this roster to begin with.
Let's look at another team with a funky roster -- the Lakers. Yeah, they have a superstar, although he has shown himself perfectly capable of ballhogging them into the lottery. And they have a very promising kid in Bynum. Lamar Odom's not bad. Other than that, they are a bunch of Luke Waltons and Smush Parkers, but they are playing at a level which is far greater than the sum of their parts -- the opposite of what we're doing.
With only a few exceptions, I don't think that our players stink. I think that 4 of our starting 5, and most of our bench, could be valuable players on a top-notch team. But you could also say that of a team that had 15 shooting guards and small forwards on the roster, which isn't too far from what we have. The blame for that has to go to the GM and owners. Unless they replaced Adelman with Musselman because they thought that Muss would get us a good draft pick, then I also have to blame the GM and owners for failing to grasp the situation. Between RonRon's fanaticism, Bonzi's expiring contract, and RA's utilization of players, the team was seriously overperforming for the second half of last year. A similar lineup which is, instead, underperforming, is a lottery team.
(Last year I commented, elsewhere, that one reason for our success was that Bonzi and, to a lesser extent, Artest, were our bigs, and that this caused a lot of teams matchup problems. San Antonio was a good example of that. Kevin Martin is a fine player, but he is in no way a substitute for Bonzi -- you might as well try replacing Charles Barkley with some other 6'5" dude -- it's just NOT going to work.)
If the players don't give 110% every single game, and if they don't spend all of their spare time practicing, I can't really blame them. They have been left in a losing position, and one that is totally out of their control. On the contrary, I am fine with seeing them blow games, because that is probably the only thing that can get us the new blood and smart coaching that we will want in the future.
Anyway, yeah, plenty of blame to go around. I only hope that GP and the Maloofs will show us, over the next couple of months, that they are willing to take a more active role in doing what needs to be done. Muss' halftime Kool Aid is a giant step in the right direction, but it alone is not enough to give us a quick rebuild. And nobody wants a slow one.
Let's look at another team with a funky roster -- the Lakers. Yeah, they have a superstar, although he has shown himself perfectly capable of ballhogging them into the lottery. And they have a very promising kid in Bynum. Lamar Odom's not bad. Other than that, they are a bunch of Luke Waltons and Smush Parkers, but they are playing at a level which is far greater than the sum of their parts -- the opposite of what we're doing.
With only a few exceptions, I don't think that our players stink. I think that 4 of our starting 5, and most of our bench, could be valuable players on a top-notch team. But you could also say that of a team that had 15 shooting guards and small forwards on the roster, which isn't too far from what we have. The blame for that has to go to the GM and owners. Unless they replaced Adelman with Musselman because they thought that Muss would get us a good draft pick, then I also have to blame the GM and owners for failing to grasp the situation. Between RonRon's fanaticism, Bonzi's expiring contract, and RA's utilization of players, the team was seriously overperforming for the second half of last year. A similar lineup which is, instead, underperforming, is a lottery team.
(Last year I commented, elsewhere, that one reason for our success was that Bonzi and, to a lesser extent, Artest, were our bigs, and that this caused a lot of teams matchup problems. San Antonio was a good example of that. Kevin Martin is a fine player, but he is in no way a substitute for Bonzi -- you might as well try replacing Charles Barkley with some other 6'5" dude -- it's just NOT going to work.)
If the players don't give 110% every single game, and if they don't spend all of their spare time practicing, I can't really blame them. They have been left in a losing position, and one that is totally out of their control. On the contrary, I am fine with seeing them blow games, because that is probably the only thing that can get us the new blood and smart coaching that we will want in the future.
Anyway, yeah, plenty of blame to go around. I only hope that GP and the Maloofs will show us, over the next couple of months, that they are willing to take a more active role in doing what needs to be done. Muss' halftime Kool Aid is a giant step in the right direction, but it alone is not enough to give us a quick rebuild. And nobody wants a slow one.
The problem with PS, aside from his expiring contract, was the fact that the team was built around Webber, who was gone. The Bibby-Webber combo was an amazing thing, and Adelman played the team in such a way that Brad and Peja's strengths were maximized, and their weaknesses minimized. There was Doug to help on D, and Bobby when we needed a spark.
Take Webber out and the whole thing collapses. Doug or Bobby might play as well as ever, but Bibby, Brad and Peja all become significantly harder to get much out of.
Yeah, we played well without CWebb for a while, but that was a combination of Adelman's excellent utilization, and everyone playing their brains out in the hope that there'd be a title waiting when Webber got back. Once that hope was gone, everything started swirling around the drain.
Then most people started blaming our lack of a title on weak D, and when it came to D, the expiring softie Peja was the odd man out.
Peja was a great shooter when he was left open, but with zero low post threat to accomplish that, he couldn't help us very much. In my opinion, we've made a number of questionable personnel decisions over the last several years, but that is not one of them. The only bad thing about it was the risk that Artest will get sulky, or come unglued. And so far (*knock on wood*) that gamble has paid off.
I didn't mean that the Maloofs should get involved in the decisions, but Petrie can't do anything if the Maloofs don't sign the needed checks.
Can we please STOP with the "discuss" comments? It really torques me - we are not a buch of students sitting in a class taking orders on what to talk about....
If it is worth discussing, we'll discuss it without your mandate that we do so.
Interesting twist, but I'm afraid I can't even begin to follow your train of thought on this one.
I wasn't for the Artest trade. I was terrified of Artest coming here and melting down within weeks. I was wrong.
I was for the hiring of Musselman. Sure beginning to look like I was wrong about that, too.
As far as Peja goes, he had wanted out, although he backtracked because I honestly don't think he wanted the fans to think he was dissing them, which I don't believe he was. He wasn't properly utilized here after Vlade and Webber left; he wasn't properly utilized in Indiana. It appears as though he might have found the right niche in New Orleans. He's getting the money for it and I hope he finds what he has been looking for. I wish him all the luck in the world, except when he plays the Kings. He wouldn't have received that money here, so I don't understand why you continue to act as though making the Artest trade was the wrong move FOR PEJA.
Adelman people? Peja bashers? Those are all pretty general stereotypes that fit very few people around here and it would really be nice if you quit using them.
Back to the topic at hand our problems run far deeper than the coach at this point. A world class coach might have us competing for the 6th spot and a likely first round elimination. Part of the reason we suck in the 4th quarters is coaching but the other part is that our mis-matched roster doesn't work in the final minutes when the pace of the game slows. This will only be magnified should this team make the playoffs. I'd still like to fix the roster before we make any final evaluation on the coach but to this point I'm more than a little disappointed if only because I thought he'd be a little more player oriented in his second go around.
Last edited by a moderator:
sloter
Starter
I agree with this, but I wasn't talking about Pedja (nor do I really care if he ever finds his niche or not), I was talking about the mess that the Kings team is in. Has Musselman done a great job here ? No. But could have anyone else done better with this team ? I really doubt it. And if its a difference between being 12th or 13th in the conference, then we may as well stick with him until we get an opportunity to get some decent players, or a decent coach becomes available.
There is something for the record books, sloter. You and I agree...
I'm not calling for Musselman's head at this point but I have honestly referred to him as "lamb chop," indicating what I think will most likely be his sacrificial lamb status at the end of the season.
I don't agree that no one else could have done a better job with this team however, but it's something we'll never know for sure because we don't have someone else. We have Eric Musselman...
Unless a truly world class can't miss coach comes along I think there's no reason not to keep him until one of three things happen:
a) a world class coach comes along and its a now or never situation
b) he stinks so bad to open the next season we have no choice
or c) we improve the roster and complete the second season and its clear he's still lost and not progressing
In either b or c the chances are 50-50 that we wind up with an equally sub-par coach.
There's also a chance that we get the right combo of players and things click and he actually turns into a half decent coach. Winning is often a cure for all that ails. This is not a comparison to a past regime, but its fair to say that in the past several seasons the consesus opinion of the coach usually revolved around the record and perceived performance of the club.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Someone did a much better job with this team just 6 months ago.
This team can NOT, no matter who is coaching, be a contender. No way, no how. But it could be a #7/#8 type seed -- indeed the sad sick thing is that is almost what it was built to do. Losing Bonzi was a bigger blow than many are williing to admit, but Kevin is better than he was last year, Salmons is on board, and the rest of the gang is all back.
In no particular order Muss has done a worse job getting performance out of KT, Reef, Brad, Mike, Cisco and Ron. To the degree Kevin has blossomed, it may very well just be maturity -- the blossoming started last year. Salmons wasn't here last year and actually is very much of a Rick type player. Likely would have done ok regardless. Leaving only Corliss as a Muss-related success story. And by failing to reach or maximize all of those top players on the team, the team has no hope. This has been a disaster for the anti-Adelman contingent, and all I have to say is "tough cookies". Goes for the owners too.
Ironically last season, before the Artest move gave us a glimmer, a path (that unpursued path by the way being resign Bonzi, keep Rick, and get Geoff off his *** to go get one or more legitimate rebounding/shotblocking bigs) I was saying that if there ever was a time for a coaching change, it would be in the upcoming rebuilding years. Few veteran playoff coaches want to go through that long process -- they are largely wasted. So if you are bringing in kids, get a young kiddie coach too and see what happens. But it was done all wrong by people not understanding the concept. The young coach was still brought in -- unproven, never coached even one playoff team, never had one winning season -- but the ground was not prepared for him. We did not rebuild. Geoff in fact sat on his *** all summer, and so the kiddie coach came into training camp with the same veteran roster that had ended the season in the first round of the playoffs. And that has just been a recipe for disaster. If Muss was going to have success, it was going to be as a rebuilding coach helming a baby crib full of younguns who would listen to him. Not as a neophyte nobody trying to reach guys that had all been places he never had as a pro.
This team can NOT, no matter who is coaching, be a contender. No way, no how. But it could be a #7/#8 type seed -- indeed the sad sick thing is that is almost what it was built to do. Losing Bonzi was a bigger blow than many are williing to admit, but Kevin is better than he was last year, Salmons is on board, and the rest of the gang is all back.
In no particular order Muss has done a worse job getting performance out of KT, Reef, Brad, Mike, Cisco and Ron. To the degree Kevin has blossomed, it may very well just be maturity -- the blossoming started last year. Salmons wasn't here last year and actually is very much of a Rick type player. Likely would have done ok regardless. Leaving only Corliss as a Muss-related success story. And by failing to reach or maximize all of those top players on the team, the team has no hope. This has been a disaster for the anti-Adelman contingent, and all I have to say is "tough cookies". Goes for the owners too.
Ironically last season, before the Artest move gave us a glimmer, a path (that unpursued path by the way being resign Bonzi, keep Rick, and get Geoff off his *** to go get one or more legitimate rebounding/shotblocking bigs) I was saying that if there ever was a time for a coaching change, it would be in the upcoming rebuilding years. Few veteran playoff coaches want to go through that long process -- they are largely wasted. So if you are bringing in kids, get a young kiddie coach too and see what happens. But it was done all wrong by people not understanding the concept. The young coach was still brought in -- unproven, never coached even one playoff team, never had one winning season -- but the ground was not prepared for him. We did not rebuild. Geoff in fact sat on his *** all summer, and so the kiddie coach came into training camp with the same veteran roster that had ended the season in the first round of the playoffs. And that has just been a recipe for disaster. If Muss was going to have success, it was going to be as a rebuilding coach helming a baby crib full of younguns who would listen to him. Not as a neophyte nobody trying to reach guys that had all been places he never had as a pro.
Last edited:
sloter
Starter
I would argue that it was just an energy surge that a lot of teams experience after the trade. And the team was better: you had Bonzi and actually relatively productive Miller.
Similar threads
