When the dusts settles...

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#1
As usual, I showed impeccable timing in scheduling a day away from home - in town without my computer and no reason (I thought) to even check my phone, I went about my daily chores just happy to be away from the mountain grind.

When I did get a chance to glance at my phone, I saw a text from another moderator that - to say the least - puzzled me.

"I leave town for a conference in San Diego and look what you let happen to the team before it even gets to lunch! :eek:" I had no idea what he was talking about and had mere seconds to check the Interweb.

1. Vlade extended. Well, that looks okay.
2. Brandon Williams fired. No problem there.
3. Dave Joerger fired.
4. Chris Clark fired...

WAIT! Dave Joerger fired????

Okay I know that last night during the game I was really defensive of Joerger's decision not to put the starters back in. I actually rewatched the second half of the game, though, and by the time I went to bed last night I couldn't really justify defending him any longer. Lots of feelings were involved - but for every plus there was a minus.

Among other things, I had come to realize over the past few weeks that those of you who had been complaining about Joerger's rigid substitutions were right. Starters leave the game with about 2 minutes left in the first and don't come back until the 8 minute mark in the second quarter. Predictable...

I also had to finally agree with SacTownKid, who has been screaming "Pick and roll, damnit!" so loudly I could hear him up here.

I liked a lot of what Joerger did. After the ASB, however, I wanted to see a lot more of Bagley and a lot less of WCS, even though I continued to make excuses for Willie because of the occasional flashes of brilliance.

It's been tough on VF21 the fan. Being supportive of Joerger seemed to be of paramount importance since he had brought the team back onto the right path. I guess part of me (the mama bear) protected him around here because so many seemed to be overly critical. I still don't think I was entirely wrong, but I'll confess to some knee jerk reactions.

I trust Vlade Divac. At the end of the day, I think it's pretty clear Vivek (and Matina) have decided to give Vlade the reins and see how far a Divac team can go. I thought yesterday's drama with Magic was the most bizarre NBA event I've ever seen. I'm glad our drama is more traditional. Vlade fired a coach, and an assistant GM, and a media relations guy. That happens. Life goes on.

To those of you I've scolded about picking on Joerger, I apologize (somewhat). I have read all your comments and kept them in mind. I've spent the past hour or so reading a lot of comments and come to one conclusion - We have an incredible assembly of knowledgeable fans here at Kingsfans.com and although I may get frustrated at times, I'm very glad you're all here.

I look forward to TDOS and the next step on our journey. At least we're not bored.

I LOVE THIS TEAM!

GO KINGS!
 
#2
It's been tough on VF21 the fan. Being supportive of Joerger seemed to be of paramount importance since he had brought the team back onto the right path. I guess part of me (the mama bear) protected him around here because so many seemed to be overly critical. I still don't think I was entirely wrong, but I'll confess to some knee jerk reactions.
I wondered how you managed to escape the day!

I feel the same way. We enjoyed so much success through the break that I just didn't want to look at any criticism for fear change would mean we go back to an awful team again. Last night really hurt and angered me in a personal way because I really wanted to attend the game (which would have been the only one this year) and maybe caused me to reflect on just how disastrous the post break period was and maybe the last two weeks in particular. We were supposed to be enjoying an easier close to the season and Joerger's teams have always finished strong, even after the Boogie trade, and yet here we regressed to a .300 level team to close the season including losses to the Lakers, New Orleans twice and a Portland team that didn't even try in the final 10 games. We had one glaring hole, it was filled with a player who unquestionably was an upgrade and ... that player spends a large chunk of time playing a different position where we entered the season with a logjam??? This was the same period when Bogs hit his slump too. It just feels like I built up a shield against any criticism for fear of change. I'm not happy this happened but I think I've hit the acceptance phase fairly quickly.
 
#3
I firmly believe it was the dysfunctional behavior of Joerger and Williams that got them fired. Vlade wants a cohesive, professional and tightly run front office. He expects the same of his players in the locker room, which is why DeMarcus was traded and why pretty much every player he’s acquired since are similar in nature (personality wise).

Vlade is trying to build a different culture than what’s existed the past decade. Those that don’t abide consistently won’t be part of the team for long, no matter how talented they may be.

If DJ and Williams had handled their differences internally, things likely would have turned out differently. At least for Williams anyway. But for Joerger, there are more layers of the onion and more pieces of the puzzle involved.

The well-known spat between DJ and Williams and the public manner is which they handled it was probably the final straw. But then there’s the other issues such as how DJ publicly admonished Buddy during a game and his handling of Marvin Bagley and the fallout from it. Mix in the lack of defensive progress and the post-all star crash and his flippant attitude in general and it’s not hard to see how we all ended up here today.

There are enough red flags and concerns, despite the progress made to date, to be reticent of extending the coach for a couple more years. I also get the feeling that DJ didn’t always follow his bosses direction, as he certainly expected his players to do for him. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. And it’s not like DJ didn’t wear out his welcome at his previous gig too. So while it’s easy to pick on Vlade and the Kings, there’s evidence to support that DJ was as much the issue as anything else.

Lastly, many (myself included) labeled Vlade and the KINGS as dysfunctional when they traded DeMarcus Cousins, acquired Buddy Hield and drafted Marvin Bagley. But as those moves have worked out better and better with each passing day, none of the Nat’l media acknowledge it nor cite it as reason to give him the benefit of the doubt for this decision now.

As a fan that hated the Boogie trade and also wanted #77 in the past draft but has since acknowledged that these moves are working out, I am giving Vlade the benefit of the doubt with regard to his decisions today until proved otherwise. While far from perfect, I think he’s earned a bit of the benefit of the doubt. He’s come a ways from that inexperienced GM who made that terrible pick swap trade (that luckily hasn’t turned out as badly as it could have).
 
#4
Okay I know that last night during the game I was really defensive of Joerger's decision not to put the starters back in. I actually rewatched the second half of the game, though, and by the time I went to bed last night I couldn't really justify defending him any longer. Lots of feelings were involved - but for every plus there was a minus.
I had been a pretty staunch supporter of Joeger this year and gave him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of questionable decisions too. But, last night's game was inexcusable.

Last nights game was personal. Joeger couldn't had gave a rats A$# about getting to the 40 win mark that would had meant so much to the franchise and to the long suffering fan base.

Watching the game, you knew he threw the game on purpose. Never once did he look over to the starters in the second half and start talking to them about getting ready to go back into the game. This game was obviously more important to the fans than it was to him and it didn't matter.

It was a gut punch to the fans and the franchise.

Either Joeger knew he was going to get fired or he was trying to ensure that he was going to get fired by pissing away a 40 win season and a sure win to a Portland team that wanted to lose.

I also think that Joeger's refusal to start Bagley was personal too. Both against Williams and Bagley's dad.

If you watch Vlade's press conference from today, he alluded to the fact that he has had communication with the players and they are fine with the decision to fire Joeger. Vlade also alluded to having a coach that believed in the players. I think Vlade knew that Joeger lost the locker room. I think that is why there was a nose dive after ASB. It started with his refusal to start Bagley and his chewing out Buddy in mid game.

If the Kings would had finished the year strong, Joeger may have earned an extension this summer. I think he lost the locker room. The way the Kings flamed out at the end of this season, I don't fault Vlade for firing Joeger.
 
#5
I had been a pretty staunch supporter of Joeger this year and gave him the benefit of the doubt in a lot of questionable decisions too. But, last night's game was inexcusable.

Last nights game was personal. Joeger couldn't had gave a rats A$# about getting to the 40 win mark that would had meant so much to the franchise and to the long suffering fan base.

Watching the game, you knew he threw the game on purpose. Never once did he look over to the starters in the second half and start talking to them about getting ready to go back into the game. This game was obviously more important to the fans than it was to him and it didn't matter.

It was a gut punch to the fans and the franchise.

Either Joeger knew he was going to get fired or he was trying to ensure that he was going to get fired by pissing away a 40 win season and a sure win to a Portland team that wanted to lose.

I also think that Joeger's refusal to start Bagley was personal too. Both against Williams and Bagley's dad.

If you watch Vlade's press conference from today, he alluded to the fact that he has had communication with the players and they are fine with the decision to fire Joeger. Vlade also alluded to having a coach that believed in the players. I think Vlade knew that Joeger lost the locker room. I think that is why there was a nose dive after ASB. It started with his refusal to start Bagley and his chewing out Buddy in mid game.

If the Kings would had finished the year strong, Joeger may have earned an extension this summer. I think he lost the locker room. The way the Kings flamed out at the end of this season, I don't fault Vlade for firing Joeger.
Agree with most everything you’ve said.

I’ll add that some in this forum (not me) suggested that DJ wanted out and is interested in going home to Minnesota should that job open up. Perhaps they were right? DJ sure seemed like he didn’t have a care in the world all season and made lots of questionable decisions and acted childish at times.

Regarding your comment about DJ making it personal over Bagley — is that the type of personality anybody would want to keep? One that prioritizes himself over the franchise and his players?

Naysayers are blasting the KINGS for firing a coach that helped guide them to the best record they’ve had in a decade. But it’s not that simple. None of that matters if the background stuff is true or even worse than we’ve heard.

Also, I’m one that believes this team was capable of more that the 12-game improvement — especially considering the way they started and where they were at the break — and that DJ was part of what held them back. Not only his rotation decisions and lack of adjustments, but his handling of Buddy. I thought that was a tipping point.
 
#6
I think DJ absolutely knew he was going to be fired and the last game was simply a FU to the entire organization. That little stunt probably made his stock drop a decent amount around the league, although I would suspect MIN will pursue him pretty hard.

I appreciate what he did here the last 3 years but the last game, plus the head scratching play after the ASB was simply inexcusable. Vlade made the right move IMO.
 
#9
My impressions come from having attended the Nets game and watching the 28 point lead collapse in person. My Fandom has been in a mild state of shock since that night:) While a big Joerger Fan That and other events have made me think something is missing with this team. Obviously Vlade thinks Coaching is part of it, Perhaps he is right. As for me I am leaning towards overall organization cohesiveness and a couple of NBA Dog Defenders being part of the solution. A new Coaching staff that is aligned with Vlade's vision should help. So would some Players like Patrick Beverly, Jae Crowder, PJ Tucker, etc.

As Vf21 pointed out at least we won't be bored:)
 
#11
I am glad he is gone. He threw away more games than the last one intentionally or threw lacking the knowledge of what was happening.

There was one before the break he threw away and the one giving Bagley the ball at the end instead of Fox.
Then several after having a big lead and failing to react to close out those games.

Your going to lose some and win some close games but sometimes having most every game come down to crunch time is not good.

I saw a lot of our offense since the break resembled last year and once the opponent came out to stop our guards it took away our strengths.
We should make the other team react to us not the other way around.
 
#12
There was no way Dave and Vlade could be in the same org. They were not on the same page and Dave had a habit of doing stuff to clearly spell out, I’m in charge.

1) ejecting Williams from practice
2) not playing Giles even in blow outs even though he knew Vlade really liked the kid
3) starting Barnes at the 4 over the two youngsters Vlade drafted and really liked.

The finally piece was the Portland FU that kept the Kings from 40.

I called these things out at the time. But this problem has been building and the post all-star break performance just loaded the gun.

You could either support Vlade or Joeger but not both.
 
#13
I was mad at first but after the first 15mins I found that I am not even half mad as the Cousin trade. Joerger is a decent coach, but only decent at most. People out there shouting Kangz gonna Kangz coz they don't even watch Kings game.
 
#14
btw, if you watch the last game in second half when Buddy was behind the basket taking photos, Barnes comes to him, puts his shirt over his mouth and is telling him something, with Buddy intently listening with a serious expression on his face. I remeber thinking some serious gossip is happening right now and I almost posted in the game thread that there will be news, but I did not.
 
#15
As the dust settled, I’m not confident with the situation

It was clear that the relationship between Joerger/Vlade was broken. To me it was broken the second Joerger covertly mentioned preferring Doncic, who he was rumored to like at draft. It was disrespect to Vlade, Bagley and broke the sword so to speak

As I mentioned throughout the year, I would have much rather seen Dave get extended than Vlade. I considered Dave s young quality head coach that was responsible in large part for the success, and Vlade’s moves suspect (he was questioned among pundits prior to this year, and this year Burks/Shump, Skal, Doncic controversy though Bags could theoretically still be better).

Aside from the Vlade/Joerger dynamic, if Joerger also didn’t get along with Bagley/Buddy and needed to be let go I’d consider it unfortunate. I’d still hope they could mend fences

As for the X’s and O’s, I found no issue. Joerger is a good coach, and fans will always complain about something. Barnes IS arguably a stretch 4, just what it is. Joerger is a good coach all the way around and the coaching hire better be out of the park to match it. IMO our success down turned with Fox/Buddy/Bogs play as the season went on, our core needs to continue to evolve
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#16
btw, if you watch the last game in second half when Buddy was behind the basket taking photos, Barnes comes to him, puts his shirt over his mouth and is telling him something, with Buddy intently listening with a serious expression on his face. I remeber thinking some serious gossip is happening right now and I almost posted in the game thread that there will be news, but I did not.
I saw the same thing and I remember wondering if Barnes was telling him he wasn't supposed to be taking pictures. We'll probably never know exactly what was said.