Watching the kids grow up

#3
You know, I actually thought about posting something re: this just to be a counter-narrative to the tank.

Fox
Buddy
Bogdan
WCS
JJ
Skal
Mason

We're keeping all of these guys right? Maybe Skal is borderline but Mason and JJ are going to be solid rotation guys and I don't think they were expected to be more.

Throw in Giles and next year's pick, even if it's #7.

That's quite a bit to go with over the next two seasons. And all but the pick will have been in the system for a full season. We'll probably sign one player that we expect to contribute in the ~15m/per range, hopefully on a 2 year deal like Vlade's been doing and retain KK, Temple, Z-Bo and Shump will opt in, so far seems like a solid presence to the kids.

Screw it, let's go play to win every game. Now.
 
#8
Did you get to watch tonight? Mason is gonna be strong off the bench. He relishes the job and is always ready to come in when he's called on.
I did but I still am iffy on him. I don't have the advanced stats or anything like that on me but he has trouble finishing at the rim and turns it over when the defense pressures him.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#11
I did but I still am iffy on him. I don't have the advanced stats or anything like that on me but he has trouble finishing at the rim and turns it over when the defense pressures him.
what irks me most about Mason is his attempts in the paint where he would constantly try to make contact in the paint when he can simply float the ball and make the basket. I'd imagine a four year player would be a bit more heady when it comes to that considering his lack of size and the difficulty of his shots when they don't need to be. Good coaching can fix this and I hope Joerger and co. fix this problem of his.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#12
I have a feeling whoever we draft will probably look better than whoever is picked immediately on either side of him because we seem to have some direction.
well it seems inevitable that the Kings will be in the 6-8 range once again based on the Kings beating these tanking teams down the stretch and/or teams that are missing multiple starters which in return increases the chances of a win that much more
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#13
I did but I still am iffy on him. I don't have the advanced stats or anything like that on me but he has trouble finishing at the rim and turns it over when the defense pressures him.
He makes at least one mistake per game. I call it his "Francisco Garcia moment"... I think he's getting better though, because those moments don't look as bad as they did earlier this year. ;)
 
#14
well it seems inevitable that the Kings will be in the 6-8 range once again based on the Kings beating these tanking teams down the stretch and/or teams that are missing multiple starters which in return increases the chances of a win that much more
My prediction is one of the top 3 guys is going to be a bust, because that's just usually life in the NBA.

We probably will pick somewhere near 7. It's a 6ish player draft but someone is going to reach on a guy that isn't one of those 6.

I think we're going to be ok if we get 7 and maybe 8.

I also think our record improves next year no matter what so we can probably rest assure we aren't going to give a top 3 pick to Boston.
 
#16
Here is the thing about the Kings going young and "developing" the kids.

Every other lottery team goes into "developing" mode with their young players and they lose by 20 points every night.

The Kings announce they are going young and "developing" the young players and they are still very competitive every night and we not only beat "developing" teams, but we beat teams in the playoffs.

That should tell us all something about this rebuild and that is that the Kings are ahead of the curve in this rebuild and they are doing it right.

I think the Kings will be competitive sooner than most people think. Our kids are learning to fight and claw for wins.

I think if things break right in the draft and the Kings get an impact player at #1-3 or at #7 or #8, I can see the Kings getting closer to the playoffs next year, possibly being in the picture for the #8 seed next year.
 
#17
Here is the thing about the Kings going young and "developing" the kids.

Every other lottery team goes into "developing" mode with their young players and they lose by 20 points every night.

The Kings announce they are going young and "developing" the young players and they are still very competitive every night and we not only beat "developing" teams, but we beat teams in the playoffs.

That should tell us all something about this rebuild and that is that the Kings are ahead of the curve in this rebuild and they are doing it right.

I think the Kings will be competitive sooner than most people think. Our kids are learning to fight and claw for wins.

I think if things break right in the draft and the Kings get an impact player at #1-3 or at #7 or #8, I can see the Kings getting closer to the playoffs next year, possibly being in the picture for the #8 seed next year.
Guys will get on you for saying this but I agree. I think in the big picture, people are napping on how good Fox, Bogi and Buddy are becoming. Like mentally some guys have ruled them out as big-timers or put low ceilings on them.

You put another year of progress on WCS & Skal, Giles amounts to anything at all at PF, and you draft the right starting SF... then I think that makes us a good team - a .500 team. Even picking one of the Bridges guys around 7/8.

Laugh away I don't mind. I think Fox, Bogi, Buddy are better than you think they are... boils down to that. Even if 2/3 of the young bigs hits full potential and we don't completely whiff the draft - I think we're good next year.
 
#18
For 15 years, I worked in an industry where the job motto/slogan was "See the big picture". It sounds hokey but it was a true fact and people would say it to each other all the time. Someone walking by and overhearing a conversation where someone was telling someone else about a circumstance where they screwed up would lean in and say to the speaker, "See the big picture".

In looking at the young Kings, I try to look at what kind of careers they are likely to have. I see only complimentary pieces, no Jordans or Pippens or even Horace Grants.

Here is how I see them:

W C-S:

Best case scenario: Jermaine O'Neal
Worst case scenario: Steven Hawes
Likely Scenario: Robin Lopez

Fills a position for 10-15 years, but never a top three player on the team.

Skal:

BCS: Larry Nance
WCS: Brad Sellers
LS: Brandon Wright

Fills a solid bench spot for 10-15 years

Justin Jackson:

BCS: Caron Butler
WCS: Bobby Gross
LS: Wesley Johnson

Decent starter on bad team or 8th man on a good team


Harry Giles: ????

Bogi:

BCS: Drazen Petrovic or even John Havlicek
WCS: Sasha Vujovic (sp?)
LS: Sarunas Marculionis (sp?)

Good starter on bad team/6th man on good team. Been a pro for 9 years, so, what you see is what you get.


Frank Mason

BCS: Chris Paul
WCS: Raymond Felton
LS: Patty Mills

Needs a shot as the starter or he'll just be Felton or Mills

Buddy:

BCS: Jamal Crawford
WCS: Joe Hasset
LS: Vinnie Johnson

Perfect 3rd guard but hot and cold forever

Fox:

BCS: Allen Iverson
WCS: Brandon Jennings
LS: Stephon Marbury

How will he handle being very good but not great? Probably by asking for a trade in three years


Obviously, if the best case scenarios come true, you have the makings of a great team. If the worst come to pass, you have a total flop of a rebuild (but no complete failures like Robinson or Fredette).

The likely scenario is (as Joerger has recently been suggesting) a team that will be like Denver is now in a few years. That would actually be fine with me, but imagine THIS team:

PG: George Hill (eventually giving way to Frank Mason)
SG: Bogi (backed up by Ben McClemore))
C : Demarcus Cousins (backed up by Kosta)
PF Zach Randolph (tutoring Willie Cauley-Stein - when Zach leaves, Skal is the backup)
SF: Garret Temple/Omri Caspi (Vince Carter backing up at 20 minutes per game)

last man up: Jakar Sampson

We give up the #1 to Chicago (no Fox) but still draft Mason with our second round pick (which we gave to Chicago instead). No Jackson or Giles (boo hoo) or Buddy. Because the trade basically was Fox, Jackson, Giles and Hield and a second round pick for Cousins, Mason and Caspi. I know that sounds nonsensical, because we got Mason anyway, but without the the trade, we would not have had the Pels second rounder to draft him (but would have had our own second to draft him).

I would have kept Collison if he was willing to be a backup slash occasional starter until Mason took that job.. In that case, Hill would have played some shooting guard and McLemore would have been the fifth guard

the draft pick this year becomes the eventual starter at SF

That team probably makes the playoffs this year and a few years more.

But Vlade did not bring in a good veteran supporting cast until it was too late for DMC. Instead, he set up DeMarcus for failure with guys like Anthony Tolliver, Arron Afflalo, Ty Lawson, Marco Bellinelli, James Anderson, Seth Curry and Matt Barnes. As Cousins said(before last season), "Lord, give me strength".

The wild card is Harry Giles. The team as it is now sinks or swims on whether he can still be a force or not. The draft will tell all. If they draft a big man, they don't really believe in Giles. If they draft a small forward, they do.
 
#19
For 15 years, I worked in an industry where the job motto/slogan was "See the big picture". It sounds hokey but it was a true fact and people would say it to each other all the time. Someone walking by and overhearing a conversation where someone was telling someone else about a circumstance where they screwed up would lean in and say to the speaker, "See the big picture".

In looking at the young Kings, I try to look at what kind of careers they are likely to have. I see only complimentary pieces, no Jordans or Pippens or even Horace Grants.

Here is how I see them:

W C-S:

Best case scenario: Jermaine O'Neal
Worst case scenario: Steven Hawes
Likely Scenario: Robin Lopez

Fills a position for 10-15 years, but never a top three player on the team.

Skal:

BCS: Larry Nance
WCS: Brad Sellers
LS: Brandon Wright

Fills a solid bench spot for 10-15 years

Justin Jackson:

BCS: Caron Butler
WCS: Bobby Gross
LS: Wesley Johnson

Decent starter on bad team or 8th man on a good team


Harry Giles: ????

Bogi:

BCS: Drazen Petrovic or even John Havlicek
WCS: Sasha Vujovic (sp?)
LS: Sarunas Marculionis (sp?)

Good starter on bad team/6th man on good team. Been a pro for 9 years, so, what you see is what you get.


Frank Mason

BCS: Chris Paul
WCS: Raymond Felton
LS: Patty Mills

Needs a shot as the starter or he'll just be Felton or Mills

Buddy:

BCS: Jamal Crawford
WCS: Joe Hasset
LS: Vinnie Johnson

Perfect 3rd guard but hot and cold forever

Fox:

BCS: Allen Iverson
WCS: Brandon Jennings
LS: Stephon Marbury

How will he handle being very good but not great? Probably by asking for a trade in three years


Obviously, if the best case scenarios come true, you have the makings of a great team. If the worst come to pass, you have a total flop of a rebuild (but no complete failures like Robinson or Fredette).

The likely scenario is (as Joerger has recently been suggesting) a team that will be like Denver is now in a few years. That would actually be fine with me, but imagine THIS team:

PG: George Hill (eventually giving way to Frank Mason)
SG: Bogi (backed up by Ben McClemore))
C : Demarcus Cousins (backed up by Kosta)
PF Zach Randolph (tutoring Willie Cauley-Stein - when Zach leaves, Skal is the backup)
SF: Garret Temple/Omri Caspi (Vince Carter backing up at 20 minutes per game)

last man up: Jakar Sampson

We give up the #1 to Chicago (no Fox) but still draft Mason with our second round pick (which we gave to Chicago instead). No Jackson or Giles (boo hoo) or Buddy. Because the trade basically was Fox, Jackson, Giles and Hield and a second round pick for Cousins, Mason and Caspi. I know that sounds nonsensical, because we got Mason anyway, but without the the trade, we would not have had the Pels second rounder to draft him (but would have had our own second to draft him).

I would have kept Collison if he was willing to be a backup slash occasional starter until Mason took that job.. In that case, Hill would have played some shooting guard and McLemore would have been the fifth guard

the draft pick this year becomes the eventual starter at SF

That team probably makes the playoffs this year and a few years more.

But Vlade did not bring in a good veteran supporting cast until it was too late for DMC. Instead, he set up DeMarcus for failure with guys like Anthony Tolliver, Arron Afflalo, Ty Lawson, Marco Bellinelli, James Anderson, Seth Curry and Matt Barnes. As Cousins said(before last season), "Lord, give me strength".

The wild card is Harry Giles. The team as it is now sinks or swims on whether he can still be a force or not. The draft will tell all. If they draft a big man, they don't really believe in Giles. If they draft a small forward, they do.
I think you're a bit bullish on Mason and a little on Fox.

If the worst Mason becomes is Raymond Felton, then we made a great pick. Patty Mills is a pretty darn good player. I think that's about Mason's ceiling in my opinion.

Fox has a way to go to become Marbury. He was a pretty solid player in his prime and a star in this league. I need to see a lot more out of him to say he could rise to Marbury levels. Brandon Jennings as a worst scenario was pretty spot on though. Could easily see that if things don't go right for him.
 
#20
See I see it as if we get to where the Nuggets or Portland are then a) we actually get to root for our team every night and b) aren't focused on fantasy every week and c) hopefully be in contention to make meaningful signings or trades rather than shuffling the deck chairs.

So yeah, I'm all about our guys reaching there likely outcomes with a best case for maybe two of them. And they haven't picked the ping pong balls yet so even if we win every game we could still pick top 3.
 
#21
Fox:

BCS: Allen Iverson
WCS: Brandon Jennings
LS: Stephon Marbury

How will he handle being very good but not great? Probably by asking for a trade in three years
Interesting that all three comps you select are guys whose biggest issue arguably was between the ears, and then lay out a scenario where Fox follows suit. Where do you see this in Fox? If anything, he's shown the opposite.
 
#22
These young guys have improved since the start of the season. There is obviously character and right attitude here and there is some talent here. How good will that talent be in 3-4 years time, no one can say with any certainty.

I believe that Fox can be an all-star. There is a lot of work that needs to be done but the tools and the attitude is there. Mason can be a very good back up PG on a good team and a starter on a bad team. He has physical limitations that will prevent him from being more than that.

Giles is a big unknown here. If what we are hearing from the franchise is genuine and not another PR stunt to sell tickets for next season, then the rebuild could be more advanced than people think.

The way I see it, the Kings need help at SF and a front court player. If Giles genuinely is a future All-Star rhen WCS is OK provided he is prepared to play consistent D and play a role within a team.

I am a firm believer that Basketball gods balance it out somehow. Whether that will mean Kings getting into top 3 picks or drafting a future great player at their pick, that remains to be seen.

If Giles is in fact as good as advertised and Kings end up getting a genuinely good SF in the draft (maybe Michael Porter Jr. slips to our pick given the surgery and the lack of production since his return) Kings could have a genuinely talented young core to move forward with and be a pretty good team. A smart trade or two and a smart FA signing or two and we are on the way.

C: WCS
PF: Giles / Labissiere
SF: Porter Jr / Jackson
SG: Bogdanović / Hield
PG: Fox / Mason

In 3 years time, that could be a core of a genuine play off team.
 
#25
Agendas are difficult to hide!

i'd be interested to hear what kind of agenda you think i have.

I am a season ticket holder and have missed only one game this year.

I DO think that this franchise has treated fans with disdain (while continuing to announce sellouts) and that there may be a grand exodus next year, but I'm still in.

I did not think at all about "between the ears" stuff at all when making comparisons. I've read one of Tom House's books (the team could do worse than having Willie bunk with him for an offseason) and I agree with his basic premise about almost all athletes.

I said elsewhere that I think that Fox s a genuinely good guy, but I also think that he has a very high opinion of himself.

I've heard ex-athletes say many times (about rookies or young players), "he has been playing against other kids but now he will be going against grown men every night".

Ben McLemore seemed like a guy who had problems adjusting to that. I don't know how Fox will adjust. He will be going up against Donovan Mitchell tonight, a legit rookie-of-the-year candidate he seems confident that he is every bit as good or better, but how will he react if Mitchell eats his lunch? BTW, money line was/is 12-1, so SOMEBODY doesn't believe - because Utah is a two person team and we are reasonably strong at both spots where they excel.

OMG - it is hailing again.
 
#27
i'd be interested to hear what kind of agenda you think i have.

I am a season ticket holder and have missed only one game this year.

I DO think that this franchise has treated fans with disdain (while continuing to announce sellouts) and that there may be a grand exodus next year, but I'm still in.

I did not think at all about "between the ears" stuff at all when making comparisons. I've read one of Tom House's books (the team could do worse than having Willie bunk with him for an offseason) and I agree with his basic premise about almost all athletes.

I said elsewhere that I think that Fox s a genuinely good guy, but I also think that he has a very high opinion of himself.

I've heard ex-athletes say many times (about rookies or young players), "he has been playing against other kids but now he will be going against grown men every night".

Ben McLemore seemed like a guy who had problems adjusting to that. I don't know how Fox will adjust. He will be going up against Donovan Mitchell, a legit rookie-of-the-year candidate he seems confident that he is every bit as good or better, but how will he react if Mitchell eats his lunch (again)?

OMG - it is hailing again.
So tell me how is that a bad thing? Which star player did not have a high opinion of himself and unwavering confidence in his own ability?

If you look around that is actually one of the main mental characteristics of star players world wide no matter what the sport!
 
#28
i'd be interested to hear what kind of agenda you think i have.

I am a season ticket holder and have missed only one game this year.

I DO think that this franchise has treated fans with disdain (while continuing to announce sellouts) and that there may be a grand exodus next year, but I'm still in.

I did not think at all about "between the ears" stuff at all when making comparisons. I've read one of Tom House's books (the team could do worse than having Willie bunk with him for an offseason) and I agree with his basic premise about almost all athletes.

I said elsewhere that I think that Fox s a genuinely good guy, but I also think that he has a very high opinion of himself.

I've heard ex-athletes say many times (about rookies or young players), "he has been playing against other kids but now he will be going against grown men every night".

Ben McLemore seemed like a guy who had problems adjusting to that. I don't know how Fox will adjust. He will be going up against Donovan Mitchell tonight, a legit rookie-of-the-year candidate he seems confident that he is every bit as good or better, but how will he react if Mitchell eats his lunch? BTW, money line was/is 12-1, so SOMEBODY doesn't believe - because Utah is a two person team and we are reasonably strong at both spots where they excel.

OMG - it is hailing again.
The Jazz are not a two person team. Rubio, Favors, Crowder and Ingles are all playing well.
 
#29
i'd be interested to hear what kind of agenda you think i have.

I am a season ticket holder and have missed only one game this year.

I DO think that this franchise has treated fans with disdain (while continuing to announce sellouts) and that there may be a grand exodus next year, but I'm still in.

I did not think at all about "between the ears" stuff at all when making comparisons. I've read one of Tom House's books (the team could do worse than having Willie bunk with him for an offseason) and I agree with his basic premise about almost all athletes.

I said elsewhere that I think that Fox s a genuinely good guy, but I also think that he has a very high opinion of himself.

I've heard ex-athletes say many times (about rookies or young players), "he has been playing against other kids but now he will be going against grown men every night".

Ben McLemore seemed like a guy who had problems adjusting to that. I don't know how Fox will adjust. He will be going up against Donovan Mitchell tonight, a legit rookie-of-the-year candidate he seems confident that he is every bit as good or better, but how will he react if Mitchell eats his lunch? BTW, money line was/is 12-1, so SOMEBODY doesn't believe - because Utah is a two person team and we are reasonably strong at both spots where they excel.

OMG - it is hailing again.
I really don't think Fox has the slightest thing in common with Ben. Ben was bewildered from the jump and it never really changed. Fox... he's a big moment guy and that has never really changed. Night and day difference. You've brought up Ben twice for some reason. Scot Pollard said on draft day that he wasn't an NBA player and he was right... he never was. Fox... heck Draymond Green himself said "he has stuff you can't teach - the Kings got a good one". Nothing in common between Ben & DeAaron.