SIMMONS OR SABONIS

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#4
What’s Sabonis’ contract status? How many more years does he have? I know Ben’s long-term, and having them locked in for awhile is key so they just don’t bolt at first opportunity. Lol
 

Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#5
What’s Sabonis’ contract status? How many more years does he have? I know Ben’s long-term, and having them locked in for awhile is key so they just don’t bolt at first opportunity. Lol
Unless they just don't play (like Simmons is right now), whether for actual mental health issues or as a despicable way to force your way out. :rolleyes:
 
#6
Like them both, but I would prefer Simmons. Ideally I’d like the kings to try and swing (mind you I am not crunching #s this is Jody loose parameters) something around….
Fox for Simmons
Buddy/Bagley for Turner
Barnes for Reddish
 
#7
Why not Sabonis? He's been quite a bit better than Fox over the course of their careers.
My issue with Sabonis is the same as the Pacer's issue with Sabonis - he's a tweener in today's NBA.

He's a highly skilled big who does a lot of things well, but he's (1) not a defensive anchor who also lacks the lateral quickness to contain wings and guards on switches and (2) doesn't fit very well next to another big, even one who can stretch the floor like Turner.

Beyond that, he's not really a great fit with Haliburton if you're dealing Fox and building around Tyrese and whatever you get for De'Aaron.

The Pacers have about the same talent level as the Kings and are also 14-25. I just don't think Sabonis moves the needle while not being easy to build around. At the very least I think you'd have to deal Holmes as well but I honestly don't know what an ideal roster with Haliburton and Sabonis as your two best players would look like.

Simmons is also tough to build around in that you essentially need every other player around him to be a decent to great shooter but (1) that's doable and (2) the versatility and defense he brings would be a huge change for the Kings.

Just my opinion - Simmons could be a difference maker and I don't think Sabonis is. I see it as a lateral move (maybe a very slight upgrade) that then creates a more difficult puzzle to solve in terms of roster building.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#9
Well, this is a complicated question. Would I rather have Simmons or Sabonis? Easily Simmons because he can guard wings at a high level and we currently have no one else on the roster who can. Maybe Harkless. But the issue with Simmons is that you're paying superstar money for a player who can't space the floor and does not want to shoot.

To a lot of people that means we can't play him with Fox (not enough shooting on the floor) but I think that's a rather simplistic way of looking at things. Fox is the only guy on our roster who can currently go out and get a bucket when needed. We're going to need that guy on the roster and it's probably not ever going to be Simmons. Could it be Haliburton or Mitchell eventually? Maybe. But if it takes them 3 or 4 years to get there, does Simmons want to stay at that point? There would be growing pains associated with adding Simmons and leaning more on Haliburton and Mitchell whereas I think the Simmons/Fox pairing would be good from day one.

As for Sabonis, you'd have to start thinking about how you're upgrading the defense around him. Maybe moving Mitchell into the starting lineup, playing a shotblocker to compliment Sabonis, getting an elite 3 and D wing to benefit from Sabonis' passing skills. It's a whole different strategy of building the team in that scenario.

I'm really fine with either way of building the team but Simmons seems like the bigger get to me because of his all defense pedigree. And I just don't like the idea of subtracting Fox and adding Simmons without knowing who gets us buckets in crunch time which is really what the playoffs are about -- getting stops consistently and having a go-to scorer in crunch time.
 
#10
I agree Sabonis is not a really good fit for the kings personnel. Nor do i think you make much of a difference record wise by moving Fox and a pick at least, for Sabonis. For pairing a big with either Fox or Hali, they need to be athletic and shoot and be a defensive presence. Turner is the Pacers big to target. Additionally, he should be quite a bit cheaper than Sabonis and would be able to play with or in place of Holmes, allowing flexibility to move holmes for other pieces. I would venture that you probably dont need to move fox for turner either, but a pick for sure. That could allow you to package Fox and other pieces for Simmons or, better yet, in my opinion, Jaylen Brown.
 
#11
My issue with Sabonis is the same as the Pacer's issue with Sabonis - he's a tweener in today's NBA.

He's a highly skilled big who does a lot of things well, but he's (1) not a defensive anchor who also lacks the lateral quickness to contain wings and guards on switches and (2) doesn't fit very well next to another big, even one who can stretch the floor like Turner.

Beyond that, he's not really a great fit with Haliburton if you're dealing Fox and building around Tyrese and whatever you get for De'Aaron.

The Pacers have about the same talent level as the Kings and are also 14-25. I just don't think Sabonis moves the needle while not being easy to build around. At the very least I think you'd have to deal Holmes as well but I honestly don't know what an ideal roster with Haliburton and Sabonis as your two best players would look like.

Simmons is also tough to build around in that you essentially need every other player around him to be a decent to great shooter but (1) that's doable and (2) the versatility and defense he brings would be a huge change for the Kings.

Just my opinion - Simmons could be a difference maker and I don't think Sabonis is. I see it as a lateral move (maybe a very slight upgrade) that then creates a more difficult puzzle to solve in terms of roster building.
I agree that he's a bit of a tweener, which to me is the biggest concern. He's an elite rebounder and passer for his size. Also packs a scoring punch that's better than Hield.

I'm not sure why you don't consider him to be a good fit with Haliburton. I'd agree if you said Fox because he's not a great outside shooter but Haliburton's offensive game fits with anyone.

You made good points but I think the same points could be applied to Simmons. He literally can't shoot the ball from anywhere on the court and didn't have an ounce of success until Embiid stepped on the floor. He has to be surrounded by 4 shooters, which could be difficult to find at the 5 spot.

We probably aren't going to find a perfect fit because the perfect fits also fit perfectly on the teams they're playing for and will be unavailable because of that.
 
#12
I agree that he's a bit of a tweener, which to me is the biggest concern. He's an elite rebounder and passer for his size. Also packs a scoring punch that's better than Hield.

I'm not sure why you don't consider him to be a good fit with Haliburton. I'd agree if you said Fox because he's not a great outside shooter but Haliburton's offensive game fits with anyone.

You made good points but I think the same points could be applied to Simmons. He literally can't shoot the ball from anywhere on the court and didn't have an ounce of success until Embiid stepped on the floor. He has to be surrounded by 4 shooters, which could be difficult to find at the 5 spot.

We probably aren't going to find a perfect fit because the perfect fits also fit perfectly on the teams they're playing for and will be unavailable because of that.
I don't think Sabonis is a bad fit with Haliburton in a vacuum. Where it becomes an issue is that one of Haliburton's strengths is running the pick and roll with guys who are a vertical lob threat like Holmes, Thompson, Bagley etc. He has the option of hitting the floater or (with the same motion) lobbing to his big. Sabonis is pretty good in the P&R but he's not a vertical lob threat. So again, if he's your lone big, you're hamstringing part of Haliburton's game a bit.

With Simmons you'd need a stretch 5 (or to allow Simmons to play as a small ball five against certain matchups) for sure. So if you managed to trade for Simmons and Myles Turner without losing Haliburton and Mitchell you'd have:

Turner
Simmons
Wing (???)
Haliburton
Mitchell

I don't love this because it also takes the ball out of Tyrese's hands when they share the floor (Simmons without the ball is nearly useless on offense) but depending on who the fifth starter is, that's four guys that can shoot around Simmons, good defense at all four known positions (I'm assuming the wing is a 3&D type making it five) and a team that's still young enough to grow together for several season as long as Turner is re-signed.

My hope before the season was for the Kings to package Hield/Bagley/picks for Siakam as I felt like he was a better fit that might come a bit cheaper than Simmons, but he's probably the biggest talent currently on the trade market, even if he's a flawed player.
 
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#14
My issue with Sabonis is the same as the Pacer's issue with Sabonis - he's a tweener in today's NBA.

He's a highly skilled big who does a lot of things well, but he's (1) not a defensive anchor who also lacks the lateral quickness to contain wings and guards on switches and (2) doesn't fit very well next to another big, even one who can stretch the floor like Turner.

Beyond that, he's not really a great fit with Haliburton if you're dealing Fox and building around Tyrese and whatever you get for De'Aaron.

The Pacers have about the same talent level as the Kings and are also 14-25. I just don't think Sabonis moves the needle while not being easy to build around. At the very least I think you'd have to deal Holmes as well but I honestly don't know what an ideal roster with Haliburton and Sabonis as your two best players would look like.

Simmons is also tough to build around in that you essentially need every other player around him to be a decent to great shooter but (1) that's doable and (2) the versatility and defense he brings would be a huge change for the Kings.

Just my opinion - Simmons could be a difference maker and I don't think Sabonis is. I see it as a lateral move (maybe a very slight upgrade) that then creates a more difficult puzzle to solve in terms of roster building.
Sabonis is the kind of piece you'd want to add to Fox/Hali in terms of talen upgrade. Feels like a very lateral move to trade Fox and Sabonis for each other; for both teams. Which seems not ideal considering where both teams are record wise.
 
#15
Like them both, but I would prefer Simmons. Ideally I’d like the kings to try and swing (mind you I am not crunching #s this is Jody loose parameters) something around….
Fox for Simmons
Buddy/Bagley for Turner
Barnes for Reddish
I remember an article last month the pacers were looking to rebuild. If that’s true I wouldn’t mind
Atl out: gallo, reddish
Atl in: Barnes.
why? atl gets a vet for a playoff push. Gets rid of gallinari Contract and have too many wings in front of reddish.

pacers out: Turner
Pacers in: gallo, kings 1st, atl 2nd
Why? This totally depends on the rumor. Gallinari contract only $5 mil guaranteed next season, kings first rounder and a second to boost the rebuild. I mean we can throw in a 2nd pick too if needed.
Kings out: Barnes
Kings in: Turner, reddish
Why? Get a stretch defensive big to play along or replace holmes that should open room for fox and get a younger replacement for Barnes who is more suited at the 3.

again this totally depends on the Indy rumor of wanting to go rebuild vs getting equal player gif Turner.
 
#16
I remember an article last month the pacers were looking to rebuild. If that’s true I wouldn’t mind
Atl out: gallo, reddish
Atl in: Barnes.
why? atl gets a vet for a playoff push. Gets rid of gallinari Contract and have too many wings in front of reddish.

pacers out: Turner
Pacers in: gallo, kings 1st, atl 2nd
Why? This totally depends on the rumor. Gallinari contract only $5 mil guaranteed next season, kings first rounder and a second to boost the rebuild. I mean we can throw in a 2nd pick too if needed.
Kings out: Barnes
Kings in: Turner, reddish
Why? Get a stretch defensive big to play along or replace holmes that should open room for fox and get a younger replacement for Barnes who is more suited at the 3.

again this totally depends on the Indy rumor of wanting to go rebuild vs getting equal player gif Turner.
I would do this ib a heartbeat,but i dont see ATL really going for it given gallon is only guaranteed $5 next year and reddish has been playong very well.
 
#17
I remember an article last month the pacers were looking to rebuild. If that’s true I wouldn’t mind
Atl out: gallo, reddish
Atl in: Barnes.
why? atl gets a vet for a playoff push. Gets rid of gallinari Contract and have too many wings in front of reddish.

pacers out: Turner
Pacers in: gallo, kings 1st, atl 2nd
Why? This totally depends on the rumor. Gallinari contract only $5 mil guaranteed next season, kings first rounder and a second to boost the rebuild. I mean we can throw in a 2nd pick too if needed.
Kings out: Barnes
Kings in: Turner, reddish
Why? Get a stretch defensive big to play along or replace holmes that should open room for fox and get a younger replacement for Barnes who is more suited at the 3.

again this totally depends on the Indy rumor of wanting to go rebuild vs getting equal player gif Turner.
Barnes wouldn’t net you Turner let alone Reddish as well.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#21
if you can get Simmons without giving up Fox or Hali then I'd go with Ben, despite his inability to shoot outside the painted area. Instead of Sabonis, I'd go with Turner who provides more defense for a team who hasn't played any for over a decade. If neither options are viable, then continue to try shopping Barnes, Hield and Holmes.
 
#22
Neither will ever play here.
I think we have to think about the reality of this statement.
Absent a 3rd team, I'm pretty sure that the 76ers don't want Fox. He doesn't really fit with Embiid, and Maxey giving them some of what Fox offers. Is Fox an upgrade in Indiana? Sure. But...does he make the Pacers competitive. But are the Pacers more competitive with Fox/Sabonis, or with Fox/Turner? Additionally, if Fox/Turner is an upgrade for the Pacers, they would assuredly upgrade the roster here in Sacramento as well. Which, means to me, that I would try for Turner over Sabonis.

I like Sabonis, but I don't think he's a fit, regardless of availability. If we switch him and Fox, then we're (as some have already mentioned) simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
 
#23
Barnes wouldn’t net you Turner let alone Reddish as well.
its not a straight swap. the trade hinges on the rumor that the pacers want to trade some of their main guys and rebuild, the draw for them is the cap space created with gallo's $5mil guarantee and the draft picks. if they want equal talent for talent then yes, you are correct. there's also a rumor of atl wanting to use reddish and gallo in a 2 for 1 trade to get a vet wing for a playoff push. I just was combining the 2 rumors to see if it could benefit the kings as well as the other teams getting what they want, again, according to the rumors.
 
#24
its not a straight swap. the trade hinges on the rumor that the pacers want to trade some of their main guys and rebuild, the draw for them is the cap space created with gallo's $5mil guarantee and the draft picks. if they want equal talent for talent then yes, you are correct. there's also a rumor of atl wanting to use reddish and gallo in a 2 for 1 trade to get a vet wing for a playoff push. I just was combining the 2 rumors to see if it could benefit the kings as well as the other teams getting what they want, again, according to the rumors.
I didn’t challenge the rumors. I challenged the value you think could be netting by only giving up Barnes. You can adhere to the rumors while still making the trade realistic from a value standpoint.
 
#25
I didn’t challenge the rumors. I challenged the value you think could be netting by only giving up Barnes. You can adhere to the rumors while still making the trade realistic from a value standpoint.
So if your rebuilding, cap space, a first round pick and 1 or 2 second round picks isn’t worth a player that isn’t meshing with your other big? I mean it’s not a 4 team trade where every team trades 3 or 4 players of semi equal value, but the trade isn’t contingent on equal value, it’s based on team needs. But in the end I was just throwing it out there. No more need for me to defend a made up trade.
 

hrdboild

Hall of Famer
#26
I think we have to think about the reality of this statement.
Absent a 3rd team, I'm pretty sure that the 76ers don't want Fox. He doesn't really fit with Embiid, and Maxey giving them some of what Fox offers. Is Fox an upgrade in Indiana? Sure. But...does he make the Pacers competitive. But are the Pacers more competitive with Fox/Sabonis, or with Fox/Turner? Additionally, if Fox/Turner is an upgrade for the Pacers, they would assuredly upgrade the roster here in Sacramento as well. Which, means to me, that I would try for Turner over Sabonis.

I like Sabonis, but I don't think he's a fit, regardless of availability. If we switch him and Fox, then we're (as some have already mentioned) simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
I think you're right. Maxey's break-out season likely ends any chance of Fox being traded for Simmons though it shouldn't rule out a multi-team trade if someone else wants Fox. Boston might be interested in Fox, for instance, but they would have to be willing to trade Jaylen Brown before they're actually a part of the trade conversation. The three-team deal with Washington could still be a possibility.

The only players the Sixers should want for Simmons are wings who can shoot and frontcourt depth behind Embiid. I was hoping Simmons' value has bottomed out to the point where some combination of Hield, Barnes, and Holmes with draft picks would start to look appealing to the Sixers but those three have done us no favors in terms of building their trade value over the last month so I've pretty much given up on that idea.
 
#27
So what is y’all’s current feeling on a trade for
Simmons? Do you think it happens? If he gets traded at the break, I think it will be to either Sac or Atlanta. My money is on Morey waiting until the off-season. Lillard, Beal and Harden could all be available and heck maybe even Fox or Collins as well.
 
#29
So what is y’all’s current feeling on a trade for
Simmons? Do you think it happens? If he gets traded at the break, I think it will be to either Sac or Atlanta. My money is on Morey waiting until the off-season. Lillard, Beal and Harden could all be available and heck maybe even Fox or Collins as well.
I don't think anything has really changed. Morey keeps demanding "on-paper" value for Ben Simmons and not what his current trade value is. It's just a matter if anyone will blink and how long Morey is willing to sit on the Embiid prime with a wasted asset.
 
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Warhawk

The cake is a lie.
Staff member
#30
So what is y’all’s current feeling on a trade for Simmons? Do you think it happens?
Not if he's demanding that Harris is included (as recently reported) - that combined salary is just insane.

I agree that he's demanding way more than Simmons is worth (since no teams are biting with top-25 type players in trade) and teams are content to let the 76ers sit on a tarnished asset for such a high price. It's the smart approach when someone is being unreasonable.