Rose

dude12

Hall of Famer
#1
There is chatter that the Bulls may be trading D Rose. If and I stress if, Sac offered up a package to obtain him, what might it take? Supposedly the Bulls told the TWolves that it would take the 5th pick and Wiggins which of course would be initial smoke.

For me, I would make an offer but absolutely would not offer up WCS in any deal.....there is too much injury history involving Rose. Gay and McLemore? I would but have a feeling that would hugely underwhelming to the Bulls. Any offer would have to include the pick at 8. The Bulls pick at 10 and are rumored to really, really like Baldwin.

How about a swap of picks and some combination of Gay or Collison or McLemore? Keep in mind the injury history of Rosé.

The other question begs is he even a guy Sac would want?
 
#5
I'd offer Kofus and Collison...but that's it. I don't know why anyone would want D-Rose though. Last year on his contract, will be 28...and you already know that he will miss games. Just comes down to how many...
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#9
No. Saw the rumors and didn't even bother starting a thread on that one.

You get back Rondo 10 times over before you go after Rose. Injury prone and gutless when it comes to playing through them, on a big ending contract, but the real issue is he might well be a bottom 10 PG at this point incapable of putting up even Darren Collison numbers.

Last year:

16.4pts 3.4reb 4.7ast on a .479TS% (broken down to .427FG .293Three .793FT)

His TS% in his three years since returning:

10gms .446TS%
51gms .493TS%
66gms .479TS%


He makes Deron Williams look like he's in his prime. There's just nothing thee but a name at this point. His generation's Penny Hardaway. Rondo is stil very good at what he does. Rose is not.
 
#10
Before the injuries, Rose was one of the star players in the league and was a hell of a scorer and play maker. Problem is he isn't that player anymore, or at least he isn't that player consistently because he occasionally shows flashes of that MVP form only to revert to being a shadow of his former self.

Is that version of Derrick Rose better than what we have under contract at his position?

Yes, I would rather have Derrick Rose as our point guard than Darren Collison because Rose can still flash that all star form from time to time. He is still a threat even at a diminished level because opponents still respect him and don't take him lightly. And if he ever managed to regain his former all star form on a consistent basis we would have a legitimate star to pair with Cousins. That duo could make us quite threatening. However, I am still not convinced that we are going to see Derrick Rose regain his all star form on a consistent basis.

Would it be worth the risk?

I guess it depends on the price. If we were talking the #8 pick and Ben McLemore (and/or veterans like Koufos, Belinelli etc), then I could go along with that because Cousins has two years left on his contract and we need to put ourselves in the best position to win games and make the play offs. We don't have the luxury of being overly patient. We need to be aggressive. Perhaps a healthy Derrick Rose, Rudy Gay and DeMarcus Cousins trio, combined with a solid SG and PF, and a decent bench, could be enough to get us into the play offs. Obviously we would be gambling Cousins' last two years under contract on Rose returning to all star form, or at least being able to give us enough consistent production to get us in, but in a sense that is no different than betting on a Rondo extension or any other free agent or draft addition being the difference maker for this team.

Ultimately the thing we need to consider here is that Cousins has two years left on his deal before he hits unrestricted free agency. In an ideal world he will re-sign with us regardless of whether we've made the play offs or been above .500 in these next two seasons. But we have all seen "loyal" players walk away in free agency before, so we are going to need to start winning and competing for the play offs for us to have the best chance at persuading him to stay. If that means taking a risk on Derrick Rose, so be it. We need to be ambitious and aggressive if we are to boost this existing roster.
 
#11
Rose is the worst high volume scorer in the NBA two year counting, who doesn't seem to notice or care about that. He also compounds that by playing no D. Signing Brandon Jennings to $15 million per will probably be a lesser mistake than spending assets acquiring Rose.

Just no!!!
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#12
No... If the Kings move on from Rondo you just have to have a solid reliable upgrade and that is NOT Rose. Now if you want to risk a prospect and start DC that is another matter entirely.
 
#18
I thought the Knicks gave up very little in the Rose trade.

We could have offered KK and DC and a second rounder and I think the Kings offer would had been better.

Oh well, I didn't really want Rose, but I didn't think he would be traded for pennies on the dollar. o_O
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#19
I think NY is going to regret trading Lopez for Rose. He just doesn't have it anymore. Once you get past the name and the player he used to be, he's an inefficient volume shooter without any standout skills at this point in his career. Meet the new Knicks, same as the old Knicks.
 
#20
I think NY is going to regret trading Lopez for Rose. He just doesn't have it anymore. Once you get past the name and the player he used to be, he's an inefficient volume shooter without any standout skills at this point in his career. Meet the new Knicks, same as the old Knicks.
Is Derrick Rose the player he used to be?

No, but that doesn't mean he can't still be a piece to the puzzle for the Knicks. What we have to remember here is that Carmelo Anthony is under contract for the next three years (the last is a player option). He is currently 32 years old and still playing to an all star level. The Knicks cannot afford to be patient with the remaining prime years of Anthony's career and rebuild around young talent. If they want to do that, then somehow they have to persuade Anthony to waive his no trade clause, and if they can't do that he is going nowhere. Thus, the Knicks need to be aggressive in building a play off caliber team around Anthony and Porzingis. While Rose is no longer the all star, he is still capable of contributing in a supporting role.

Did they have an alternative to Rose in free agency?

The main PG free agents are Mike Conley, Rajon Rondo, Jeremy Lin, Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, Matthew Dellavedova, Raymond Felton, and Mario Chalmers. Being totally honest the only one worth pursuing would be Mike Conley because he would give the Knicks an excellent defensive player, a capable scorer, and a decent play maker. But outside of defense where Conley beats Rose, there wasn't very much between them in stats. Rose beat Conley in PPG and FG%. Conley beat Rose in APG and 3P%. So there is an argument that if Rose can stay healthy, perhaps he can boost his assist numbers, and become more efficient since he's still getting over three major injuries. Granted there is a risk he doesn't get over them, but think of it this way, Rose has one year left on his contract to prove he deserves another contract at the end of it. If he bounces back and has a strong season, the Knicks will try to extend him. If he fails, the Knicks will let him walk. It's a one year loan and all they had to give up was an average players in Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon. In return they got a former all star in Rose, plus a player and a second round pick. I think that's a good deal.

Could they have built through the draft?

Well, not this year since they don't own a first or second round pick. So unless they manage to acquire a draft pick, they won't pick in this year's draft, and that means no drafted young talent to support their existing team. Ok, they own their first round pick in 2017, but with growth from Porzingis, Anthony playing to his usual level, and any production from their supporting cast could play them out of a difference maker in the draft unless they won the lottery. So in a sense, the only way they could build through the draft around Porzingis would be to persuade Anthony to waive his no trade clause and get assets for him in return. Based on what Anthony has said, he has no intention of waiving that no trade clause and is going nowhere. So unfortunately this type of deal, combined with free agency and other trades, is the way the Knicks are going to improve.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Rose is inefficient and a shadow of his former self. But he doesn't need to be the all star he was, he just needs to stay healthy and become more efficient. Put him in the starting line up with Anthony and Porzingis and they have a decent trio to build around. All they need to do is sort the SG and C positions, and fill out the bench and they'll be a play off team next season. With players opting out they should have cap space to sign people, and while we may question Rose's current ability, there is no question that some free agents will view the Knicks with Rose, Anthony and Porzingis as an attractive option in free agency. And that's without considering the market size and off court opportunities.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#21
Is Derrick Rose the player he used to be?

No, but that doesn't mean he can't still be a piece to the puzzle for the Knicks. What we have to remember here is that Carmelo Anthony is under contract for the next three years (the last is a player option). He is currently 32 years old and still playing to an all star level. The Knicks cannot afford to be patient with the remaining prime years of Anthony's career and rebuild around young talent. If they want to do that, then somehow they have to persuade Anthony to waive his no trade clause, and if they can't do that he is going nowhere. Thus, the Knicks need to be aggressive in building a play off caliber team around Anthony and Porzingis. While Rose is no longer the all star, he is still capable of contributing in a supporting role.

Did they have an alternative to Rose in free agency?

The main PG free agents are Mike Conley, Rajon Rondo, Jeremy Lin, Deron Williams, Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, Matthew Dellavedova, Raymond Felton, and Mario Chalmers. Being totally honest the only one worth pursuing would be Mike Conley because he would give the Knicks an excellent defensive player, a capable scorer, and a decent play maker. But outside of defense where Conley beats Rose, there wasn't very much between them in stats. Rose beat Conley in PPG and FG%. Conley beat Rose in APG and 3P%. So there is an argument that if Rose can stay healthy, perhaps he can boost his assist numbers, and become more efficient since he's still getting over three major injuries. Granted there is a risk he doesn't get over them, but think of it this way, Rose has one year left on his contract to prove he deserves another contract at the end of it. If he bounces back and has a strong season, the Knicks will try to extend him. If he fails, the Knicks will let him walk. It's a one year loan and all they had to give up was an average players in Robin Lopez, Jerian Grant and Jose Calderon. In return they got a former all star in Rose, plus a player and a second round pick. I think that's a good deal.

Could they have built through the draft?

Well, not this year since they don't own a first or second round pick. So unless they manage to acquire a draft pick, they won't pick in this year's draft, and that means no drafted young talent to support their existing team. Ok, they own their first round pick in 2017, but with growth from Porzingis, Anthony playing to his usual level, and any production from their supporting cast could play them out of a difference maker in the draft unless they won the lottery. So in a sense, the only way they could build through the draft around Porzingis would be to persuade Anthony to waive his no trade clause and get assets for him in return. Based on what Anthony has said, he has no intention of waiving that no trade clause and is going nowhere. So unfortunately this type of deal, combined with free agency and other trades, is the way the Knicks are going to improve.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Rose is inefficient and a shadow of his former self. But he doesn't need to be the all star he was, he just needs to stay healthy and become more efficient. Put him in the starting line up with Anthony and Porzingis and they have a decent trio to build around. All they need to do is sort the SG and C positions, and fill out the bench and they'll be a play off team next season. With players opting out they should have cap space to sign people, and while we may question Rose's current ability, there is no question that some free agents will view the Knicks with Rose, Anthony and Porzingis as an attractive option in free agency. And that's without considering the market size and off court opportunities.
It's not just that Derrick Rose is less than the MVP player he was early in his career -- it's that he's not even a good player anymore. He's this generation's version of Penny Hardaway. He was a net negative on offense with his terrible efficiency and team leading 18 FGA per 36 minutes and he was also one of the worst defenders on the team. I'd rather play Seth Curry 36 minutes per game at PG next season than Derrick Rose. So if you look at it as a salary dump for the Knicks, I suppose it doesn't hurt them a lot to throw out a terrible player at PG next season if they're not expecting to win anyway and then use that cap space to pursue a star in 2017. But they gave up a productive player on a team-friendly deal to get him and they have playoff aspirations next season. It's not an Isiah Thomas level disaster because Rose doesn't have 5 more years on his deal, but it's not good either. And if they go on to max out Dwight Howard they'd now have 3 former superstars who are past their prime struggling just to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. I don't think blowing everything up and rebuilding through the draft makes a lot of sense for them either -- but there are at least 100 ways they could have spent that money more effectively if they're trying to put a winning team on the floor.
 
#23
It's not just that Derrick Rose is less than the MVP player he was early in his career -- it's that he's not even a good player anymore. He's this generation's version of Penny Hardaway. He was a net negative on offense with his terrible efficiency and team leading 18 FGA per 36 minutes and he was also one of the worst defenders on the team. I'd rather play Seth Curry 36 minutes per game at PG next season than Derrick Rose. So if you look at it as a salary dump for the Knicks, I suppose it doesn't hurt them a lot to throw out a terrible player at PG next season if they're not expecting to win anyway and then use that cap space to pursue a star in 2017. But they gave up a productive player on a team-friendly deal to get him and they have playoff aspirations next season. It's not an Isiah Thomas level disaster because Rose doesn't have 5 more years on his deal, but it's not good either. And if they go on to max out Dwight Howard they'd now have 3 former superstars who are past their prime struggling just to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. I don't think blowing everything up and rebuilding through the draft makes a lot of sense for them either -- but there are at least 100 ways they could have spent that money more effectively if they're trying to put a winning team on the floor.
Who else could they realistically have gone for at PG?

Mike Conley more than likely wouldn't consider them.

Rajon Rondo loves to fill the assist column on the stat sheet and doesn't do much else these days.

Jeremy Lin is a high energy player, but never managed to nail down a starting role long term.

Deron Williams is over the hill.

Ty Lawson has off court issues and his career has gone off the rails.

Brandon Jennings is still recovering from his major injury. Perhaps he could get better, but he's a chucker and looked to have lost a step.

Mario Chalmers is an average PG who got hurt. Probably a backup option.

The other options are all backups. So unless they manage to hit lucky on Conley, or acquire another PG from another team (eg Teague?), then they didn't have much to pick from to upgrade their PG position. With Rose they've upgraded their point guard position even if they've added a flawed player. Plus, maybe he gets better next year as he gets more healthy and further removed from his injuries. He's worth the risk on a one year rental.

As you say, they want to make the play offs. Who is likely to help them do that, an average center like Robin Lopez? Or a former all PG who could bounce back in new surroundings (which is what any team trading for him will believe will happen)?

Personally I lean towards Rose being the better one to have on the team. Rose, Melo and Porzingis is a good trio for them. If they land a decent SG (eg a 3 and D guy like Courtney Lee) plus a solid center (eg Noah or Howard), then they have a better starting line up than last season. Sure, Robin Lopez is younger than Howard and on a friendly deal, but he's an average center. That's all they've given up in this deal - average players for a former all star, a prospect and a second round pick.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#24
Penny Hardaway was a true basketball tragedy. Who knows how history gets written if Penny stays healthy and wins a chip with Shaq in Orlando.
I'm still upset about that. He was the first star player I remember being truly in awe of. He was so fast, so athletic, he had the crossover and he could pass. I'll occasionally go back and watch highlights on Youtube just to remind myself how special he was. Here he is torching the Jordan/Pippen Bulls in the 1996 playoffs:

 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#25
I think there is a bit of an underestimation on Jerian Grant going to Chicago. Bulls wanted him last year and the Bulls track record on picks and prospects has been fairly good. Is he a starting PG? No. Is he a rotation guy for them this year? Probably. Has a chance to become a solid NBA PG.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#26
Who else could they realistically have gone for at PG?

Mike Conley more than likely wouldn't consider them.

Rajon Rondo loves to fill the assist column on the stat sheet and doesn't do much else these days.

Jeremy Lin is a high energy player, but never managed to nail down a starting role long term.

Deron Williams is over the hill.

Ty Lawson has off court issues and his career has gone off the rails.

Brandon Jennings is still recovering from his major injury. Perhaps he could get better, but he's a chucker and looked to have lost a step.

Mario Chalmers is an average PG who got hurt. Probably a backup option.

The other options are all backups. So unless they manage to hit lucky on Conley, or acquire another PG from another team (eg Teague?), then they didn't have much to pick from to upgrade their PG position. With Rose they've upgraded their point guard position even if they've added a flawed player. Plus, maybe he gets better next year as he gets more healthy and further removed from his injuries. He's worth the risk on a one year rental.

As you say, they want to make the play offs. Who is likely to help them do that, an average center like Robin Lopez? Or a former all PG who could bounce back in new surroundings (which is what any team trading for him will believe will happen)?

Personally I lean towards Rose being the better one to have on the team. Rose, Melo and Porzingis is a good trio for them. If they land a decent SG (eg a 3 and D guy like Courtney Lee) plus a solid center (eg Noah or Howard), then they have a better starting line up than last season. Sure, Robin Lopez is younger than Howard and on a friendly deal, but he's an average center. That's all they've given up in this deal - average players for a former all star, a prospect and a second round pick.
I just think you haven't been watching Derrick Rose much the last 2 seasons. He's achieved a Josh Smith level of team-destruction. Every player you mentioned was better than Rose was last season -- most of them much better. The sad part is it's not really his fault, but that doesn't excuse the Knicks trading real assets for him when Detroit had to pay Josh Smith $26 million dollars just to get rid of him in 2014. They could have drafted somebody, they could have promoted Jerian Grant, they could have signed a backup PG and made them a starter. These are all better options than gambling on Rose returning to All-Star level after 3 major knee surgeries.
 
#27
On a side note for New York and Rose, I think this take a major contender for Rondo's services off the market for a PG.

This may drive down Rondo's asking price to a more reasonable contract this summer.

If Vlade wants Rondo back, he probably could be re-signed for a reasonable 4 years/$52 - $56 mil (or about 13 to 14 mil per year). ;)
 
#28
On a side note for New York and Rose, I think this take a major contender for Rondo's services off the market for a PG.

This may drive down Rondo's asking price to a more reasonable contract this summer.

If Vlade wants Rondo back, he probably could be re-signed for a reasonable 4 years/$52 - $56 mil (or about 13 to 14 mil per year). ;)
I still pass.
 
#29
I think NY is going to regret trading Lopez for Rose. He just doesn't have it anymore. Once you get past the name and the player he used to be, he's an inefficient volume shooter without any standout skills at this point in his career. Meet the new Knicks, same as the old Knicks.
If Rose is the same Rose from 2016, they'll definitely regret it. Robin Lopez has been so underrated throughout his entire career. I'd say he's a top 15 C on a nice deal.
 
#30
On a side note for New York and Rose, I think this take a major contender for Rondo's services off the market for a PG.

This may drive down Rondo's asking price to a more reasonable contract this summer.

If Vlade wants Rondo back, he probably could be re-signed for a reasonable 4 years/$52 - $56 mil (or about 13 to 14 mil per year). ;)
no please. I don't even want to give him anything over 10mpy.

The Kings should absolutely not sign Rondo for long term. He's already 30 and on the decline. 2 years from now, that contract would be cancer to us.