Roland Beech gone - Luke Bornn hired

#7
Per Sacbee

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nba/sacramento-kings/kings-blog/article145319649.html

Not sure an analytics is our thing or if we are just following another Vivek inspired trend but there is consistent turnover here and there has always been a question of empowerment and fit in our FO.

Will be interesting to see if/how we replace.
I have a feeling that Vlade is not really an analytics guy, seems more of a Vivek (or PDA :mad:) thing.

I think Vlade judges his talent by the "eyeball" test. Vlade seems old school to me in his assessment of players.
 
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#8
maybe this is what they wanted to talk to Hinkie about. He's an analytics guru.

I have no clue if this is a big deal or not. I'm sure he'll be replaced in time to prepare for the draft and I have no way to rate the guys importance.

I think Grant was probably right on this. Likely not a big deal at all
 
#9
One possible side effect is that Beech had worked with Dallas in the past, if Mark Cuban brings him back to the Mavs, they may get the Kings inside info on who the Kings are looking at in the draft at #8 and #10 picks, the Mavs may try to maneuver and jump the Kings from their #9 spot.
 
#10
One possible side effect is that Beech had worked with Dallas in the past, if Mark Cuban brings him back to the Mavs, they may get the Kings inside info on who the Kings are looking at in the draft at #8 and #10 picks, the Mavs may try to maneuver and jump the Kings from their #9 spot.
I wouldn't be worried about that. Dallas is taking best available at #9 regardless and it'll 100% be a PG if any are left. I wouldn't try to be cute here and hope we can sneak Ntilikina past them. He's their top target I think but they would settle for Smith too.
 
#11
Not good. We need more of these kind of guys in the FO, not less. Beech is insanely intelligent and I wouldn't be surprised if he had a hand in a lot of our scouting decisions.
 
#12
Another issue with the Kings revolving door of analytics people is that data becomes more useful when the same person curates data developed over many years. Teams sometimes sign young players languishing on other teams based in part on data curated and developed by current staff several years ago while they were in college.
 
#13
Another issue with the Kings revolving door of analytics people is that data becomes more useful when the same person curates data developed over many years. Teams sometimes sign young players languishing on other teams based in part on data curated and developed by current staff several years ago while they were in college.
Yeah the revolving door in the Kings front office is still very much a concern. In terms of data analysis; it is really hard, if not impossible, to determine trends if the methodology is changing regularly. With that said these guys who do this for a living don't stop because they change jobs. They have data on the whole league and the same information is available to everyone with the possible exception of medical data. Their individual methodologies and data sets are still very much intact whether they are employed or not. You'd think the data-driven geeks that own the Kings would be able to identify the most effective ways of acquiring and using the data available, but they are very creative at finding ways to disappoint.
 
#15
I have a feeling that Vlade is not really an analytics guy, seems more of a Vivek (or PDA :mad:) thing.

I think Vlade judges his talent by the "eyeball" test. Vlade seems old school to me in his assessment of players.
He doesnt seem like an analytics guy but that being said our previous stats guy was let go by Vlade and Roland was hired under Vlade's tenure so im not sure exactly what is going on in this area.

maybe this is what they wanted to talk to Hinkie about. He's an analytics guru.
This is what concerns me. We have not continuity in thought process. There is no method to our madness. We just fired/let go/let walk a top notch analytics guy and we are looking to bring in someone at the top who really places a lot of value in such.

It pulls at me that we are such a mess. Can we just get some dam continuity. Plot a vision, communicate it and stick to it.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#16
I wouldn't be worried about that. Dallas is taking best available at #9 regardless and it'll 100% be a PG if any are left. I wouldn't try to be cute here and hope we can sneak Ntilikina past them. He's their top target I think but they would settle for Smith too.
I think Dallas is looking hard at Markkanen. He'd be a perfect fit for them as a future replacement for Dirk. And who better to mentor him, then Dirk himself. I think Cuban thinks he can pluck a PG in freeagency. Don't be surprised to see him go after Chris Paul with big bucks, and the Clippers are in a world of hurt money wise. If they were to resign all of their freeagents to max contracts (Griffin, Paul, Reddic) along with the rest of their guaranteed contracts, they would owe around 46 mil in luxury tax money on top of their guaranteed contracts. There is no way the keep all their core players, especially when it's apparent their not going to win a championship with them. (Unless they pull it off this year, and that's unlikely)

So Cuban obtaining Paul isn't out of the question.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#17
He doesnt seem like an analytics guy but that being said our previous stats guy was let go by Vlade and Roland was hired under Vlade's tenure so im not sure exactly what is going on in this area.



This is what concerns me. We have not continuity in thought process. There is no method to our madness. We just fired/let go/let walk a top notch analytics guy and we are looking to bring in someone at the top who really places a lot of value in such.

It pulls at me that we are such a mess. Can we just get some dam continuity. Plot a vision, communicate it and stick to it.
It drives me nuts when people with no information at all, other than someone left the organization, speculate about why, and always in a negative fashion. Did you ever work with someone that was really good at what he did, but you simply couldn't get along with him? I have, and I think most people have. Sometimes it's just a bad fit, and nothing more. We just happen to have the Kings under a microscope where were inspecting every single detail of what they do. I'm surprised someone isn't critical of how much toilet paper Vlade uses.

Valde has admitted that he's not a big analytics guy. I happen to be of a similar mind. That doesn't mean I don't use them, but I use them to validate what I saw, not the other way around. All analytics do is give you itemized results. What they don't do, is show you the how's and why's. They're just numbers on a page. That said, I do think analytics are very useful when you get into particular areas of need. I think this whole thing is much ado about nothing.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#18
He doesnt seem like an analytics guy but that being said our previous stats guy was let go by Vlade and Roland was hired under Vlade's tenure so im not sure exactly what is going on in this area.



This is what concerns me. We have not continuity in thought process. There is no method to our madness. We just fired/let go/let walk a top notch analytics guy and we are looking to bring in someone at the top who really places a lot of value in such.

It pulls at me that we are such a mess. Can we just get some dam continuity. Plot a vision, communicate it and stick to it.
We don't know what happened with Beech. I'll be honest. If he clashed with Joerger, for example, I don't care if he's gone. I can see the difference Joerger is making. Beech? No clue.

Until social media became all powerful, the dealings of the front office of various franchises was normally done without the knowledge/understanding of the average fan. Petrie didn't explain his actions/decisions, and although it drove some fans nuts, they came to realize (until the end) that he was going to do what he believed to be best for the franchise. I'm willing (now that I've climbed down off the ledge) to give Vlade the same latitude. Roland Beech was not the make or break person in the front office. I'd be more interested in knowing how skilled and experienced our scouts are. They are going to be the main cog in the works going into this draft.
 
#19
I think Dallas is looking hard at Markkanen. He'd be a perfect fit for them as a future replacement for Dirk. And who better to mentor him, then Dirk himself. I think Cuban thinks he can pluck a PG in freeagency. Don't be surprised to see him go after Chris Paul with big bucks, and the Clippers are in a world of hurt money wise. If they were to resign all of their freeagents to max contracts (Griffin, Paul, Reddic) along with the rest of their guaranteed contracts, they would owe around 46 mil in luxury tax money on top of their guaranteed contracts. There is no way the keep all their core players, especially when it's apparent their not going to win a championship with them. (Unless they pull it off this year, and that's unlikely)

So Cuban obtaining Paul isn't out of the question.
That's a good point. I hadn't looked at available free agent PGs yet and Marc Cuban usually throws a ton of money at somebody. Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague, and George Hill are possibilities too. I think Cuban will hedge his bets knowing that Dirk is on the way out and Barnes/Noel are the core to build around now. For that reason I'm not sure that a chance at luring Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry will cause him to pass on a potential franchise PG in the draft, but you never know. If he sees Markkanen as his Dirk replacement that would make sense too. And he did recently sign Jason Kidd when he was already 34 and get a championship out of it. Do you think Chris Paul's involvement in DeAndre Jordan's "change of heart" two summer's ago would matter to Marc Cuban though?
 
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#20
It drives me nuts when people with no information at all, other than someone left the organization, speculate about why, and always in a negative fashion. Did you ever work with someone that was really good at what he did, but you simply couldn't get along with him? I have, and I think most people have. Sometimes it's just a bad fit, and nothing more. We just happen to have the Kings under a microscope where were inspecting every single detail of what they do. I'm surprised someone isn't critical of how much toilet paper Vlade uses.

Valde has admitted that he's not a big analytics guy. I happen to be of a similar mind. That doesn't mean I don't use them, but I use them to validate what I saw, not the other way around. All analytics do is give you itemized results. What they don't do, is show you the how's and why's. They're just numbers on a page. That said, I do think analytics are very useful when you get into particular areas of need. I think this whole thing is much ado about nothing.
Very well could be. I dont put much stock in statistics either however if Vlade doesnt value it highly he shouldnt have replaced Dean Oliver in the first place. The fact is we paid Beech a lot of money to leave Dallas so something doesnt quite add up here for me. I'm not coming at this from a cynical viewpoint but just noting that this was clearly something that we valued as an organisation given we went after the best young guy in the business and sweet talked him with dreams of a bigger role and more empowerment under a GM who didnt really value his skills, or at least thats what it looks like we did. Could be another typical management moment for us...

By all accounts Beech was technically brilliant and highly skilled and great organisations tend to keep those people around. Dallas off the back of their championship certainly tried to do so but our offer was over and above the market and Cuban couldnt do much.

At the end of the day i dont feel like we should be exploring bringing in Hinkie if we as a franchise dont care much for data hence my statement about what is the grand plan ? Bringing in Hinkie just doesnt seem to fit

At the end of the day we are left with; Vlade, Ken Catanella who Woj reports has his days numbered with our interest with Hinkie and Vlade's underutilization of him, and Jason Levien who has links to both Vivek and Joerger.

Interesting times ahead but i cant escape the notion that instead of building our FO from the ground up, based on a plan, we are adding as many grand pieces as we can and hoping it works out.
 
#22
It drives me nuts when people with no information at all, other than someone left the organization, speculate about why, and always in a negative fashion. Did you ever work with someone that was really good at what he did, but you simply couldn't get along with him? I have, and I think most people have. Sometimes it's just a bad fit, and nothing more. We just happen to have the Kings under a microscope where were inspecting every single detail of what they do. I'm surprised someone isn't critical of how much toilet paper Vlade uses.

Valde has admitted that he's not a big analytics guy. I happen to be of a similar mind. That doesn't mean I don't use them, but I use them to validate what I saw, not the other way around. All analytics do is give you itemized results. What they don't do, is show you the how's and why's. They're just numbers on a page. That said, I do think analytics are very useful when you get into particular areas of need. I think this whole thing is much ado about nothing.
If memory serves, wasn't Catanella known as an analytics guy as well? Maybe they felt they were a bit redundant.
 
#23
If they actually thought they could get Hinkie to be the analytic person for the KINGS under Vlade because they knew Beech was leaving ... they do not have a reasonable understanding of the franchise's standing in the NBA.
If memory serves, wasn't Catanella known as an analytics guy as well? Maybe they felt they were a bit redundant.
Can the most threadbare front office in the NBA have too many people because some skill sets overlap some? Because one person uses data some of the time, they don't need someone to work the data?
 
#24
Maybe he wanted to pursue other opportunities. We are taking "he left" and running with it. Might as well wait and see what else unfolds before next season. I am sure all will not be quiet untill then. It never is for the Kings.
 
#25
I dunno what's more depressing;

That a lot of fans here are conditioned to expect the worst...

.... or that the fears of said pessimists are so often made reality by this dippy franchise.

Anyways.... Another summer, another front office purge, courtesy of the lil goblin! (Or Beech coming to his senses and jumping ship)

Go Kangz!
 
#26
@gunks

I agree it is hard not to always assume the worst, then still be let down because its usualy worse than that.

Maybe someday we will crawl out of the sewer under Shawshank and get clean and be free.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#27
I dunno what's more depressing;

That a lot of fans here are conditioned to expect the worst...

.... or that the fears of said pessimists are so often made reality by this dippy franchise.

Anyways.... Another summer, another front office purge, courtesy of the lil goblin! (Or Beech coming to his senses and jumping ship)

Go Kangz!
What makes Roland Beech so important? I guess I'm just missing something, as in the grand scheme of things I can't imagine him being so important that some here are climbing back out on the cliff, all set to jump off.
 
#28
What makes Roland Beech so important? I guess I'm just missing something, as in the grand scheme of things I can't imagine him being so important that some here are climbing back out on the cliff, all set to jump off.
My post was less about Beech and moreso addressing the general sense of unease in the thread, and how it's symptomatic of the bigger problem of how terribly Vivek runs the show.

Also, I live on the cliff! The wind is pleasant, and you get a nice view up here.
 
#29
Well, they've found their replacement: http://www.nba.com/kings/news/luke-bornn-named-vp-strategy-analytics

I actually like a lot of what I hear. He seems to be on the forefront of some of the key issues: http://www.csnbayarea.com/kings/kings-add-new-stat-guru-luke-bornn-front-office

He is a stat head for sure, but one with a focus on creating a system of sketching and mapping the spatial movements of players using the incredible technologies now available to teams through the NBA’s SportVU system.

“We’ll be looking at more advanced modeling tools often with the player tracking data to try and get a deeper understanding of player performance,” Bornn told NBC Sports California. “There is a lot of what happens on the court that really is not picked up by the box score. A lot of players that make big contributions make it in ways that don’t appear. It’s not an assist, it’s not a rebound, it’s not a block.”
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#30
That's a good point. I hadn't looked at available free agent PGs yet and Marc Cuban usually throws a ton of money at somebody. Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague, and George Hill are possibilities too. I think Cuban will hedge his bets knowing that Dirk is on the way out and Barnes/Noel are the core to build around now. For that reason I'm not sure that a chance at luring Chris Paul or Kyle Lowry will cause him to pass on a potential franchise PG in the draft, but you never know. If he sees Markkanen as his Dirk replacement that would make sense too. And he did recently sign Jason Kidd when he was already 34 and get a championship out of it. Do you think Chris Paul's involvement in DeAndre Jordan's "change of heart" two summer's ago would matter to Marc Cuban though?
Naw, Cuban doesn't care about that stuff. He's a business man and used to having people back out of deals. Just part of the game. One thing is for sure, he'll go after someone with big bucks, and you could be right, if he thinks that the PG of the future is staring him in the face, he'll grab him and figrue out the rest later. All I know is that there is very little chance that the Clippers are able to retain all three of Paul, Griffin, and Redick. Maybe two of them, and if so, then Redick is probably the odd man out.

One of the reasons I felt that Kings, if they feel that Rivers can be a backup PG should make an offer to him. Make the offer big enough and I doubt the Clips will match. Or, they'll let two of the big three walk, and then retain Rivers and other young players. Jordan is an unrestricted freeagent the following year, and he's going to want a max contract as well.

The Clippers remind me of the old Utah Jazz with Stockton and Malone. A real good team that will make the playoffs every year, but not quite good enough to get over the hump and win the whole thing. At some point, you have to see the writing on the wall and break it up.