Coming into this year, I think that the emphasis should be on playing above the rim. Thompson, Cousins, and Landry all do not play above the rim. That's why we should always have either Whiteside or SD on the court at all times. Webber's success has been his ability to always play above the rim. In fact, on that whole WC championship team he's the only guy that played above the rim. I do miss those dunks he put down in traffic and those hook shots from way above the rim.
Playing Above the Rim
- Thread starter jtt
- Start date
ATR is not the only factor but is a fundamental requirement for success in the paint. Think Jordan, LBJ, Webber, Duncan, Wade, Garnett, Amare, Melo, Dwight Howard. Our guys will never have the explosiveness of these guys except for Duncan. Duncan just knows how to use his body and they should really try to learn from him.
Here's an incomplete list of some of the greatest vertical leapers in the game.
Michael Jordan
48"
Darrell Griffith
48"
Spudd Webb
46"
Dee Brown
44"
Harold Miner
44"
Vince Carter
43"
Steve Francis
43"
Antonio McDyess
42"
Dominique Wilkins
42"
Allen Iverson
41" (104 cm)
Dr. J
41"
Julius Erving
41"
Shawn Kemp
40" (102 cm)
Larry Nance
40"
Rex Chapmann
39"
Kobe Bryant
38"
Desmond Mason
38"
As you can see, athleticism isn't everything. There are hall of famers on that list but also a lot of scrubs (I'm sure there are a lot more of these superathletic scrubs that aren't on that list as well ie Stromile Swift, etc.) Basketball is a game of skill as much as pure athleticism.
btw that Jordan vertical is unconfirmed...it was reportedly measured when he was at North Carolina.
Michael Jordan
48"
Darrell Griffith
48"
Spudd Webb
46"
Dee Brown
44"
Harold Miner
44"
Vince Carter
43"
Steve Francis
43"
Antonio McDyess
42"
Dominique Wilkins
42"
Allen Iverson
41" (104 cm)
Dr. J
41"
Julius Erving
41"
Shawn Kemp
40" (102 cm)
Larry Nance
40"
Rex Chapmann
39"
Kobe Bryant
38"
Desmond Mason
38"
As you can see, athleticism isn't everything. There are hall of famers on that list but also a lot of scrubs (I'm sure there are a lot more of these superathletic scrubs that aren't on that list as well ie Stromile Swift, etc.) Basketball is a game of skill as much as pure athleticism.
btw that Jordan vertical is unconfirmed...it was reportedly measured when he was at North Carolina.
There are a lot of different approaches that players can take to being very good. Athleticism is one of them. You have your Carter and McGrady type players who can absolutely jump out of the gym, but then you also have guys like Oscar Robertson, who was better than either of them and coincidentally never dunked in an NBA game. Tyreke is not an above the rim player, but he doesn't have to be. Cousins doesn't appear to be an above the rim player either (though if he actually worked out he might get a lot better), but he's absolutely huge, so he can find other ways. Right now, we have a good mix of leapers and non-leapers, I don't think athleticism is a huge concern for us. Bill Walton wasn't a huge jumper, but when healthy, he was one of the best bigs of all time. Tim Duncan, whom I consider to be the pest PF of all time, is another example.
Notable Current NBA Players:
Kobe Bryant - 38"
Lebron James - 44" (http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/b...kobe-bryant-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-and-more )
Johny Flynn 40"
Blake Griffin 35.5"
Dwayne Wade 36"
Vince Carter 43"
Paul Pierce 38"
Carmelo Anthony 33.5"
Dwight Howard 35.5"
Derrick Rose 40"
Kevin Durant 33.5"
Chris Paul 38"
Deron Williams 35"
Nate Robinson 43.5"
Notable Kings Players:
Tyreke Evans - 34"
Omri Casspi - 32.5"
Donte Greene 31.5"
Demarcus Cousins 27.5"
Notable Players with very modest verticals:
Magic Johnson
30"
Karl Malone
28"
Larry Bird
28"
Kevin Durant 33.5
Carmelo Anthony 33.5
Interesting FActoids:
- Darrell Griffith of the Utah Jazz in the 80’s had record standing vertical leap of 48 inch
- The average NBA vertical leap of 28" (71 cm)
Sources:
NBA Greats: http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vertical-jump.htm
Kobe Bryant - 38"
Lebron James - 44" (http://www.hoopsvibe.com/features/b...kobe-bryant-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-and-more )
Johny Flynn 40"
Blake Griffin 35.5"
Dwayne Wade 36"
Vince Carter 43"
Paul Pierce 38"
Carmelo Anthony 33.5"
Dwight Howard 35.5"
Derrick Rose 40"
Kevin Durant 33.5"
Chris Paul 38"
Deron Williams 35"
Nate Robinson 43.5"
Notable Kings Players:
Tyreke Evans - 34"
Omri Casspi - 32.5"
Donte Greene 31.5"
Demarcus Cousins 27.5"
Notable Players with very modest verticals:
Magic Johnson
30"
Karl Malone
28"
Larry Bird
28"
Kevin Durant 33.5
Carmelo Anthony 33.5
Interesting FActoids:
- Darrell Griffith of the Utah Jazz in the 80’s had record standing vertical leap of 48 inch
- The average NBA vertical leap of 28" (71 cm)
Sources:
NBA Greats: http://www.topendsports.com/testing/results/vertical-jump.htm
You still don't get it. "Like I said, ATR does not automatically equate to success in the paint. It is a fundamental requirement among others. To put it in more simple terms: if you play below the rim, you are not going to have much success in the paint in the NBA."
There are plenty of great players that play below the rim (Nash, Divac, Peja). Don't get me wrong. Note that these guys are outside shooters. The point here is that winning teams always need paint success which requires play above the rim. Since CWebb went down, we never recovered. We need to get strong inside again and that requires long guys who can get up in addition to having skills.
There are plenty of great players that play below the rim (Nash, Divac, Peja). Don't get me wrong. Note that these guys are outside shooters. The point here is that winning teams always need paint success which requires play above the rim. Since CWebb went down, we never recovered. We need to get strong inside again and that requires long guys who can get up in addition to having skills.
Cwebb's injury didn't actually impact his vertical as much as it did his lateral quickness. He could still get way up for alley-oops, as evidenced by some of his plays immediately post-injury. Paint success doesn't necessarily require athleticism, ask the Celtics and Kevin McHale (who actually has some things in common with DMC).
Edit: Carolija beat me to it.
Edit: Carolija beat me to it.
K
Here's another example of a thread that means completely nothing. Tyreke plays below the rim and he is just perfectly fine in being effective and punishing the defense. Yeah, above the rim is exciting but seriously? Playing above the rim does not give you an advantage in winning championships. The Celtics in the 80's were largely a group of earthbound, high IQ ball players. So why exactly did they win with a bunch of low vertical players. TDOS, it brings out the insanity in fans.
Chris Webber's success was attributed to his ability to do many things very well. He was very skilled player with a high basetball IQ. Did athleticism help, sure did but he wasn't the player he was simply because he was athletic.
This is kind of like telling someone they should play basketball simply because they are tall.
This is kind of like telling someone they should play basketball simply because they are tall.
The two teams in the finals, who were the 2 best defensive teams in the league, Bos and LA, don't have bigs that are extremely athletic and play above the rim. Perkins in not explosive. Garnett hasn't been in years. Big Baby can't get off the floor. Bynum has hobbled around on an injured knee for a few seasons now. Gasol was considered very soft on that end, and has never been considered a great athlete. So the top 2 teams defensively, who made it to the finals, don't have anyone on their frontlines who will impress with their vertical jumping ability. This is one example of many.
Experience, size, positioning, rotation, understanding angles, understanding nba defensive schemes, knowing opponents preferences, and timing are all much more important than how high a given player can jump. To come out and say we should put an emphasis on playing above the rim seems incredibly rediculous to me.
When you want to have a great defensive team, or you want to make improvements on that end, do you think a coaching staff will tell the entire frontline to spend the summer working on their vert jumping? Please. They will head straight to the film room, and then practice schemes and rotations on the court.
Experience, size, positioning, rotation, understanding angles, understanding nba defensive schemes, knowing opponents preferences, and timing are all much more important than how high a given player can jump. To come out and say we should put an emphasis on playing above the rim seems incredibly rediculous to me.
When you want to have a great defensive team, or you want to make improvements on that end, do you think a coaching staff will tell the entire frontline to spend the summer working on their vert jumping? Please. They will head straight to the film room, and then practice schemes and rotations on the court.
I think some folks here are worried about the wrong thing... Cousins wasnt dunked on 3 times because he cant jump. He was dunked on 3 times because he is so out of shape that he was too tired to react in time to stop the player from cutting to the rim. Duncan would not have been dunked on like that and Cousins is a better athlete right now at current time.
Same reason why the kid settled for jumpshots instead of working in the post. Takes a lot more energy to battle for position move quickly and powerfully enough to get advantage over your defender or create a follow up move if that doesn't work then it is to shoot a jump shot in the perimeter.... I know that's what i do if i get tired...
I think they tried to send cousins a message and tire him out. Big difference between playing 24 min in college and playing 36 mins at NBA pace 5 times in 6 nights.... Dont be surprised i cousins plays again... I know if i was his coach that's what I would. I want to show him that in the NBA skill alone will not be enough. YOu will have to work out yyour body and be a physically fit as humanly possible. That alone will improve is above the rim ability. It's amazing what losing 35 pounds of fat and hitting the squats will do for you in that regard
Same reason why the kid settled for jumpshots instead of working in the post. Takes a lot more energy to battle for position move quickly and powerfully enough to get advantage over your defender or create a follow up move if that doesn't work then it is to shoot a jump shot in the perimeter.... I know that's what i do if i get tired...
I think they tried to send cousins a message and tire him out. Big difference between playing 24 min in college and playing 36 mins at NBA pace 5 times in 6 nights.... Dont be surprised i cousins plays again... I know if i was his coach that's what I would. I want to show him that in the NBA skill alone will not be enough. YOu will have to work out yyour body and be a physically fit as humanly possible. That alone will improve is above the rim ability. It's amazing what losing 35 pounds of fat and hitting the squats will do for you in that regard
That's basically it, anyone who has played full court basketball while not in great shape and being dead tired it effects everything you do, you can't play the way you want because your triying to conserve what little energy you have left. I'm sure he'll keep working hard to get in better shape by training camp and then training camp will whip him into his best shape for the start of the season.
So I'm sure it will work out fine.
So I'm sure it will work out fine.
Divac didn't get us no ring. Duncan can dunk in traffic, he plays above the rim enough. He was not flashy about it though.
Why do you need it? To finish over people and to get ATTENTION. You need the attention to get the media backing and advertisers so you can get the calls in the playoffs. Good luck not being jobbed in the playoffs playing without a traffic/highlight dunker.
Why do you need it? To finish over people and to get ATTENTION. You need the attention to get the media backing and advertisers so you can get the calls in the playoffs. Good luck not being jobbed in the playoffs playing without a traffic/highlight dunker.
It is TDOS and of course no one is going to get it!
People are bored and they will try to shoot down a lot of post by nit-picking every single word or phrase that did not sound right or are lacking farther elaboration. If I were you, before you post make sure you have a complete explanation of every single thing you are posting.
I can just imagine your frustration. Hahaha!
People are bored and they will try to shoot down a lot of post by nit-picking every single word or phrase that did not sound right or are lacking farther elaboration. If I were you, before you post make sure you have a complete explanation of every single thing you are posting.
I can just imagine your frustration. Hahaha!
Rex Champman surprises me. If you never saw McDyess play in the mid to late 90's, then that would surprise you as well.
I'm pretty sure Spud had a 48" vertical leap. At least thats what I've seen on tv as well as the back of my old cards. Although I'm sure they probably exaggerate it like they do everything.
I'm pretty sure Spud had a 48" vertical leap. At least thats what I've seen on tv as well as the back of my old cards. Although I'm sure they probably exaggerate it like they do everything.
What about Gerald Wallace? He is one former Kings player that had the hops! I wish they were able to keep him instead of Darius Songaila.
2003 Kings Roster
Mike Bibby *
Rodney Buford
Doug Christie *
Vlade Divac *
Bobby Jackson *
Tony Massenburg
Brad Miller *
Anthony Peeler *
Jabari Smith
Darius Songaila *
Peja Stojakovic *
Gerald Wallace
Chris Webber *
* = keepers from expansion draft
2003 Kings Roster
Mike Bibby *
Rodney Buford
Doug Christie *
Vlade Divac *
Bobby Jackson *
Tony Massenburg
Brad Miller *
Anthony Peeler *
Jabari Smith
Darius Songaila *
Peja Stojakovic *
Gerald Wallace
Chris Webber *
* = keepers from expansion draft
I'm sorry, but playing above the rim is NOT a requirement to sucess in the paint. Kevin McHale, Larry Bird, Karl Malove, and Tim Duncan are some of the best scorers in the paint of all time and none of them "played above the rim". Sitting here thinking about it, Bill Walton comes to mind as does Vlade Divac. I'll even mention Larry Johnson who played most of his career below the rim, but was still a very good scorer in the paint. Some of the most athletic big men end up having only a few years of sucess in the paint because they rely on their athleticism and never develop the skills needed to keep scoring as they get older.