No one on this team can shoot other than Thorton

#1
Our guards and small forwards can't shoot from 3 or much of anywhere on the court for that matter.

Our big men can't shoot from 10ft or even finish layups or put backs half the time. All they can do is rebound but rebounding does nothing for you if you can't get the ball in the hoop.

We're going to struggle on offense all season long. Looking at the roster, there are no legit scorers outside of Thorton and then Evans if he continues to play like this. Cousins is not a scorer we can rely on. Half the time he makes 2 bone headed plays for every 1 good play.

Jimmer should be spot up shooting at this point in time. Not trying to run the offense. The guy is supposed to be a shooter so take advantage of his strengths. He's obviously scared and nervous trying to go out there and rack up assists and make plays. He's supposed to be this lights out shooter but I'm seeing a guy that can't even hit a 12ft stop and pop to save his life.

We just don't have anyone that can hit wide open shots at better than a 30% rate other than Thorton. Pretty pathetic for an NBA team. Seriously, what was Petrie thinking outside of Thorton by relying on a quickly fading Salmons and an undersized rookie as our shooting threats? That's just a recipe for disaster and we're having to sit through it.

I never thought I'd say this but I really miss Beno right now. The guy had a very consistent mid range shot and a decent 3pt shot. Not to mention he did a good job of managing the offense and keeping things under control.

I really don't see how we can even be a mediocre team without having guys that can shoot. The coach can stop the drive and kick and implement plays but it's not going to matter if we only have one guy on the roster that can knock down Chris Webber range shots at a passable clip.
 
#2
Jimmer should be spot up shooting and would be if anyone of the guards would pass up their own shot. He has been open on the perimeter several times each game and almost never sees the ball. Instead you get one of the other guards jacking up a shot over a double team.
 
#3
Garcia, Salmons, and Jimmer can shoot the 3 as well. Salmons' touch has been off though for some reason. But he can make those shots and i wont go against him for taking them as long as they're good shots.

Cousins and JT can hit the mid range jumper. Hickson has shown an ability to hit some of those as well.

A big part in making a spot up shot depends on how well that player has been set up. Our wing players have been set up a couple times, but i think that occurence has been too far and few inbetween for us to have any consistency in hitting those shots. As for our bigs, i think their midrange jumper can be put to use if we run a pick and roll or pick and pop. A big problem is that our players dont seem to have much consistency in making plays and setting up each other, and relying too much on their own individual games to score.
 
#4
My answer to this as of now is that. We have a lot of good shooters but our offense is still shaky that results to the following situations:

1.) We don't pass the ball to the shooters at the right place and time. Right time = when players get the ball and shoot it instinctively because they on their ready to shoot position. Right place = comfort zone in the floor where a player would hit most of his shoots. Some players are corner shooters, other like it at the top of the key, etc.
2.) Our shooters don't know when the ball would be passed to them. We run offense almost at random and untimely manner that both the passer and shooter still don't know where the ball will end until the moment it hit/leaves their hand.

Solution: Practice and memorize offensive sets and know each teammate's comfort shooting zone.
 
#5
My answer to this as of now is that. We have a lot of good shooters but our offense is still shaky that results to the following situations:

1.) We don't pass the ball to the shooters at the right place and time. Right time = when players get the ball and shoot it instinctively because they on their ready to shoot position. Right place = comfort zone in the floor where a player would hit most of his shoots. Some players are corner shooters, other like it at the top of the key, etc.
2.) Our shooters don't know when the ball would be passed to them. We run offense almost at random and untimely manner that both the passer and shooter still don't know where the ball will end until the moment it hit/leaves their hand.

Solution: Practice and memorize offensive sets and know each teammate's comfort shooting zone.
This is exactly correct! Until this is fixed our players will continue to shoot in the mid 30% range. Actually running an offense and knowing where you are going to get your shots is a huge thing.
 
#6
1. We don't have great catch and shoot players. I think Outlaw is the only one but his shooting touch died about two years ago.
2. We instead have dribble into a shot players, which means they are normally guarded when they take their jumpers.
3. The team doesn't pass well and still doesn't pass all that often. Shooting percentage falls when guys are picking the pass up from their feet. There's very little in-rhythm passes.
 
#7
garcia, salmons, and jimmer can shoot the 3 as well. Salmons' touch has been off though for some reason. But he can make those shots and i wont go against him for taking them as long as they're good shots.

Cousins and jt can hit the mid range jumper. Hickson has shown an ability to hit some of those as well.

A big part in making a spot up shot depends on how well that player has been set up. Our wing players have been set up a couple times, but i think that occurence has been too far and few inbetween for us to have any consistency in hitting those shots. As for our bigs, i think their midrange jumper can be put to use if we run a pick and roll or pick and pop. A big problem is that our players dont seem to have much consistency in making plays and setting up each other, and relying too much on their own individual games to score.
did you see how many ****ing open shots john salmons missed?
 
#8
They've hit shots in the past; they're just not falling right now.

So you have to decide whether that is either, a period of poor form, a bad offense, or, that once decent shooters are completely and totally finished for the rest of their careers.
 
#9
They've hit shots in the past; they're just not falling right now.

So you have to decide whether that is either, a period of poor form, a bad offense, or, that once decent shooters are completely and totally finished for the rest of their careers.
Stats show one thing, but as fans what we actually see during the game forms a big part of our opinion. Having said that, I don't think we can rely on Salmons as a spot up 3 point shooter. Let me say this - good shooters do go into ruts where they seem to lose their touch (such as Jimmer), but even when their shots aren't falling good shooters continue shooting with consistent form, and the ball comes close to going in. If you watch Salmons shots, very few of them come close to being good. Even when he makes his 3s it's clear from the way the ball goes through the net that he doesn't have good rotation on his shots. Good shooters hit long or short, not left or right of the target. Sure, you can have an off night. But Salmons has had several in a row.

I know that my love for pure shooters may be unwarranted, and that you want the player to be well rounded and be able to contribute in other ways. But if our offense is going to be built and dependent on 3 point shooting, we better get some guys who can actually hit their shots. I don't give a rat's *** about career %s at this point, we are simply not going to win if every game several guys are taking 4-6 3 pointers and only making 1 of them. Imagine if the Suns under D'antoni shot the way we do from 3. Or the Magic. They wouldn't make the playoffs. Again, it's because our offense is so built around drive and kicks that I'm so concerned.
 
#10
Cousins shot is far from reliable and JT's and Hickson's are way below average at best.

Remember how our old teams were built? You'd have a better time naming the guys that couldn't shoot (Keon Clark, Pollard, Mateen) rather than the guys that could (literally everyone else).

How did we go from teams where 10 out of 12 players could shoot to a team where we have 1 single player that can shoot at an NBA level?

I think Jerry Reynolds is right. The art of 2pt shooting on this team is gone. We have a bunch of guys who can't shoot who are jacking up 3 pointers in practice, warmups and the game.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#11
My answer to this as of now is that. We have a lot of good shooters but our offense is still shaky that results to the following situations:

1.) We don't pass the ball to the shooters at the right place and time. Right time = when players get the ball and shoot it instinctively because they on their ready to shoot position. Right place = comfort zone in the floor where a player would hit most of his shoots. Some players are corner shooters, other like it at the top of the key, etc.
2.) Our shooters don't know when the ball would be passed to them. We run offense almost at random and untimely manner that both the passer and shooter still don't know where the ball will end until the moment it hit/leaves their hand.

Solution: Practice and memorize offensive sets and know each teammate's comfort Ashooting zone.
Yep. They are thinking a lot, which is not conducive to good shooting. They have a ways to go before they get set in their roles and are comfortable with the offense.
 
#12
They've hit shots in the past; they're just not falling right now.

So you have to decide whether that is either, a period of poor form, a bad offense, or, that once decent shooters are completely and totally finished for the rest of their careers.
They rely and depend on the perimeter...live by the jumper die by the jumper.
 
#13
I think the real problem is that no one on this team can (or will) pass the ball. Shooting a high percentage is a function of getting good shots and getting good shots is a function of passing. The Kings are last in the leauge in assist per game and the players that have the ball in their hands most of the time don't seem interested in getting other guys open shots at all.
 
#14
Keep an eye out, alot of passes that we are making to the open man are not good. Mostly the ones that are made while in the air but few of the passes are going to the receivers chest and instead are aimed at the ankles over the head and or to the side meaning the shooter has to move or recover. This gives the defender time to close out and takes the shooter out of rhythm. We had a similar problem last year and it was starting to get better late.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#15
I think the real problem is that no one on this team can (or will) pass the ball. Shooting a high percentage is a function of getting good shots and getting good shots is a function of passing. The Kings are last in the leauge in assist per game and the players that have the ball in their hands most of the time don't seem interested in getting other guys open shots at all.

If you watched the last few games you would not say that was the main problem at all. Guys are getting hit in the hands, standing wide open, and throwing up missles out there. And guys who have been much better shotters than this. The one exception to this might be Jimmer, who is forcing up a lot of one on one crap and looks lost. But Salmons, Cisco, Outlaw etc. are just flat missing everything they shoot no matter how nicely you set it up for them, and its obviously stalling our offense even when we run it right and get an open shot out of it.
 
#16
If you watched the last few games you would not say that was the main problem at all. Guys are getting hit in the hands, standing wide open, and throwing up missles out there. And guys who have been much better shotters than this. The one exception to this might be Jimmer, who is forcing up a lot of one on one crap and looks lost. But Salmons, Cisco, Outlaw etc. are just flat missing everything they shoot no matter how nicely you set it up for them, and its obviously stalling our offense even when we run it right and get an open shot out of it.
I have watched every game except last nights game. I still say the same thing. The Kings are a very bad passing team both because of the design of the offense and the makeup of the team. I am not just talking about three's either. On most of the possessions there is only one pass. Any many possessions there isn't any passes at all. A guy just dribbles into three guys and throws up a shot.

There is really no ball movement or movement of any kind on offense. Guys just stand around and watch until it is there turn to shoot. If the shots are falling then they look good. If the shots aren't falling they look horrible.

It isn't usually the pass before the shot that makes the play work it is the pass before that one that makes the play successful. The King main ball handlers don't seem willing to make that pass.
 
#17
Over the last few years I've noticed that there seems to something about wearing a Kings uniform that makes previously good shooters suddenly shoot career low percentages. I don't know if it's coaching, front office, or just the general losing culture of the franchise getting in guy's heads, but it's become a tragicomedy to witness.
 
Last edited:
#18
Salmons has just gotten old:


Year Team M A Pct 3s M 3s A 3s Pct Ast TO PPG
2006-07 SAC 3.0 6.5 45.7 0.5 1.4 35.7 3.2 1.5 8.5
2007-08 SAC 4.7 9.9 47.7 0.5 1.5 32.5 2.6 2.1 12.5
2008-09 SAC 6.6 14.0 47.2 1.5 3.5 41.9 3.7 2.3 18.3
2008-09 CHI 6.4 13.4 47.3 1.9 4.5 41.5 2.0 1.7 18.3
2009-10 CHI 4.5 10.8 42.0 1.4 3.8 38.0 2.5 1.4 12.7
2009-10 MIL 6.9 14.8 46.7 1.5 3.9 38.5 3.3 1.8 19.9
2010-11 MIL 5.1 12.3 41.5 1.1 3.0 37.9 3.5 1.9 14.0
2011-12 SAC 3.2 8.9 36.0 0.8 3.5 22.9 1.8 1.0 7.9

Westphal the gift that keeps on giving.
 
#19
I don't know why I thought he was a better shooter. Never above 42% for his career, and in steady decline for the last 4 years? Yeesh. Why did we seek out this trade, again?
 
#20
I don't know why I thought he was a better shooter. Never above 42% for his career, and in steady decline for the last 4 years? Yeesh. Why did we seek out this trade, again?
Are you talking about his 3 point percentage? If so, hardly anyone ever shoots over 40%. Some of the greatest 3 point shooters of all time are at 39% for their career. Salmons is 36% career and has been over 35% since 2007, which is quite good. He's just inexplicably, sucked this year (22%).
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Staff member
#21
I don't know why I thought he was a better shooter. Never above 42% for his career, and in steady decline for the last 4 years? Yeesh. Why did we seek out this trade, again?
People forget that before he came to the Kings the first time Salmons was notably NOT a shooter. It was the weakness of his game. He was a slasher, and did not have 3pt range. During his time with the Kings he steadily increased that range, first to the corners, and then near the end even up on the angles. After we traded him he had ups and downs, but by the time he hit Milwaulkee his game had almost entirely reversed, and now he had slowed down on his drives and was primarily a jumpshooter, with corresponding declines in his percentages.

What this acquisition is beginning to remind me of was the Nick Anderson mistake back in the early days of the golden era teams. One of the few missteps Petrie made at the time and one that annoyed me because I could have warned him he was screwing up. trading away Abdul-Wahad (who never did anything elsewhere so no huge loss there) for Nick Anderson's ghost, and the only way that made sense was if Petrie was still looking at him through 1995 eyes and ignoring the decline in his game from a top postup guard to an aging chunky low percentage long range chucker. I had seen Anderson play in the years before we got him and the change was perfectly obvious to me. Somehow Petrie did not see it and we wasted a year watching him brick open threes and show rapidly declining skills across the rest of his game.

I'm not willing to write off Salmons enitrely to that level of decreptitude yet, but there is no doubt he looks absolutely wretched out there as another sluggish low percentage chucker, and if he hasn't straightened out by the end of the month you've got to put all sorts of red exclamation points around him given the steady decline in his numbers for the last 4 years.
 
Last edited:
#22
I paid attention to Salmons off and on last year. His overall FG % really dipped for the first 3 quarters of the season. He was sitting at about .375% for most of the year before getting hot at the end of the year. Still, his 3pt % was quite good. Obviously he's having an anomoly year as far as 3pt % goes because you aren't going to drop from 37.9% to 22% in one year. The problem is that his overall FG % has been declining and he hasn't been hitting any shots this year, not just three pointers.

We're still doing the drive and dish offense but I made this thread because I've noticed many of our open shots are not going down. Most of the time we just pass it from one covered guy to another until someone decides to jack up a shot. The few times we hit the open man has led to missed shots.

Where's our Cuttino Mobley? Damon Jones? Anthony Peeler? Hell even Ron Artest was a much better shooter than everyone on this team not named Thorton. We don't have anyone that can just park themselves behind the 3 point line and wait until their man runs off on help defense.

I don't think the problem is selfishness. I don't see guys disgruntled because they aren't getting the ball. Hell, Jimmer had the ball with about 10 seconds on the shot clock last night and someone basically yelled for him to do his thing. Everyone just backed up and Jimmer dribbled the ball in one spot for 7 seconds before driving and then pulling up for a terrible off balance shot. Was that selfishness? No, that was what they wanted him to do. I say "they" because I don't know who yelled it out but everyone seemed to comply. On the other end of the court after a foul, you could see Jimmer talking to Cousins and the coach basically saying "what the hell was that all about"?
 
L

LWP777

Guest
#23
People forget that before he came to the Kings the first time Salmons was notably NOT a shooter. It was the weakness of his game. He was a slasher, and did not have 3pt range. During his time with the Kings he steadily increased that range, first to the corners, and then near the end even up on the angles. After we traded him he had ups and downs, but by the time he hit Milwaulkee his game had almost entirely reversed, and now he had slowed down on his drives and was primarily a jumpshooter, with corresponding declines in his percentages.

What this acquisition is beginning to remind me of was the Nick Anderson mistake back in the early days of the golden era teams. One of the few missteps Petrie made at the time and one that annoyed me because I could have warned him he was screwing up. trading away Abdul-Wahad (who never did anything elsewhere so no huge loss there) for Nick Anderson's ghost, and the only way that made sense was if Petrie was still looking at him through 1995 eyes and ignoring the decline in his game from a top postup guard to an aging chunky low percentage long range chucker. I had seen Anderson play in the years before we got him and the change was perfectly obvious to me. Somehow Petrie did not see it and we wasted a year watching him brick open threes and show rapidly declining skills across the rest of his game.

I'm not willing to write off Salmons enitrely to that level of decreptitude yet, but there is no doubt he looks absolutely wretched out there as another sluggish low percentage chucker, and if he hasn't straightened out by the end of the month you've got to put all sorts of red exclamation points around him given the steady decline in his numbers for the last 4 years.
Exactly. I guess GP just looked at his numbers from 3-4 years ago when he was in his prime and figured he'd be so happy to be back in Sacramento that he would achieve those numbers again. It's simply unbelievable that we actually traded for this guy again. Even if he was making more shots he still doesn't fit in with the group we have. Apparently, everybody knew this except for GP.
 

Capt. Factorial

Hope heaves the worries!
Staff member
#24
It's actually almost funny how poorly we are shooting. In the early going, Thompson is having a career year at 91 points above his career average. Then Tyreke is about on par with his injury-free rookie season, and Cousins (bad as it is) and Thornton are about at their career averages.

That's four players at or above what we can expect. The rest stink relative to their careers.

Hayes is 96 points below his career average
Hickson is 95 points below
Outlaw is 177 points below overall, and 221 points below from three
Salmons is 80 points below overall, and 136 points below from three
Jimmer is 95 points below his college average, and 86 points below his college average from three (different beast, sure)

But look at this - if these guys had just scored at their career averages, they'd combined have contributed another 78 points given the shots they've taken, which would take us from 92.9 PPG to 100.7 PPG (we allow 103.3 PPG). Using the standard NBA Pythagorean, that's a whopping two wins worth over the short ten games we've played so far. We should be 2-8 given our point differential. Somehow we're 3-7, but if those five guys were shooting at their average, we'd expect 4-6 (and since we're one game above expected, there would be a shot at 5-5).

The shooting is killing us, and I'm at a loss to understand why all of a sudden so many players have gone in the tank. Maybe it was Westphal. Maybe it's just bad luck. Hey, at least if it's one of those two there's a chance we break out of it.
 

Capt. Factorial

Hope heaves the worries!
Staff member
#25
Exactly. I guess GP just looked at his numbers from 3-4 years ago when he was in his prime and figured he'd be so happy to be back in Sacramento that he would achieve those numbers again. It's simply unbelievable that we actually traded for this guy again. Even if he was making more shots he still doesn't fit in with the group we have. Apparently, everybody knew this except for GP.
It's interesting that according to you, everybody in the world but our GM knew Salmons would be terrible, while according to another poster everybody was "celebrating" when we got him. I demand a middle ground on our revisionist history!
 
#26
The shooting is killing us, and I'm at a loss to understand why all of a sudden so many players have gone in the tank. Maybe it was Westphal. Maybe it's just bad luck. Hey, at least if it's one of those two there's a chance we break out of it.
The reason is pretty simple. There was not a set offensive structure under Westphal. Smart has not had time to build one, although there are signs (running identical plays off the tip in the last two games is something, at least.) Improvement will come when players know when they have the green light, when they have the yellow, and when they have the red. Right now, everyone has the yellow and half the team stops at the yellow and the other half guns.
 
L

LWP777

Guest
#27
It's interesting that according to you, everybody in the world but our GM knew Salmons would be terrible, while according to another poster everybody was "celebrating" when we got him. I demand a middle ground on our revisionist history!
Sorry, I guess I get too extreme sometimes (something Baja has always accused me of)! It comes out of frustration in following this team. Of course, "everybody" didn't know, but from reading these forums religiously I would guess that "most" of us here, and especially the very knowledgeable posters, predicted the Salmons trade would be a disaster. John Salmons is a guy who is not going to change. The same problems that we had with him 3 years ago are going to be the same problems we'll have with him now. Anybody could have told you that. Now when you combine that with the fact that he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat, it's a complete disaster!
 
#28
trading away Abdul-Wahad (who never did anything elsewhere so no huge loss there) for Nick Anderson's ghost,
Except for that pick we included with it, ended up being Kendrick Perkins. (And the next two picks were Barbosa and Josh Howard). Sigh.

Oh and Outlaws last good season was 08/09

Year Team M A Pct 3s M 3s A 3s Pct PPG
2008-09 POR 4.8 10.5 45.3 1.1 2.9 38.1 12.8
2009-10 TOT 3.2 8.3 39.1 1.2 3.1 38.1 9.1
2010-11 NJN 3.3 8.9 37.5 0.9 3.1 30.2 9.2
2011-12 SAC 1.1 4.4 25.0 0.2 1.7 11.8 3.2

He was one of, if not the worst starter in the league last year. I have no idea why we picked him up.
 
Last edited: