Magic @ Kings Game Thread

[piksi]

Kings went to the East for 3 games and won one even though could have easily won all 3 of the. Unfortunately, we only played Knicks once. So after a close one in Cleveland, Kings were even closer to a victory in Chicago but Dickie B. would have none of it. He made a key stop on the last possession and Kings lost another one dropping to 12-20 which is 8th worst in the NBA right now. A year ago we were 14-18 at this point but we had more players available. After 3 days off Kings will start a 4 game home stand trying to improve the home record which is 8-8 and they will try to stop 4 game home losing streak.
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So after a pathetic 4 game home stand that Kings just finished a week ago losing all 4 - Kings will get another Chance to do better as they will host Magic, Grizzlies, Pacers and Mavs starting on Tuesday, playing every other day. Magic are 15-5 on the road but only 5-5 in the last 10 and they dropped the last 2 games. Grizzlies have a 4-12 road record and they are close in standings for the best pick position, Pacers started a West coast road trip tonight in LA and they will be tired when they come to ARCO. They have 8-9 road record. Mavs will be the toughest opponent in this stand even though, they are only 7-8 on the road. Overall, 2-2 would be nice considering we will have some guys being rusty from injuries and playing big minutes.
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So, there is a possibility for Mike and Kevin being back on Tuesday or some other game on this home stand. That changes things a lot actually. The starting lineup will suddenly change into a better shooting unit but in a much weaker defensive unit. Our bench will be deeper but some guys that have shown some promise will be waving towels from now on. Kevin will bring scoring and more FTAs to the game and he has been great this season so there shouldn't be a big adjustment. Cisco coming of the bench and playing less minutes may be a good thing especially if he spends last minutes of each halves on the bench. I don't know what we will get from Mike. I can imagine that he plays the first game back on a very high level with all the energy and emotions but in a long run we can't tell. Mike hasn't have a good season in a while and he wasn't very healthy in the last couple season. We know that we get a clutch shooter and that we will play 4 on 5 on defense. Also I am afraid that some of the more efficient players will have their FGAs reduced but it won't be as brutal as it will be when Ron comes back. We have to hope that he will be good enough for someone to take him before the trade deadline expires.
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speaking about trades -

Tuesday, Thomas ruled out making a deal between now and the February deadline. Of course, Thomas has made a habit of denying working on moves right up until he makes them.

"I really don't foresee that," he said. "I don't see us being active around the trade deadline. This is the time when you're down and you can make mistakes that can cost you years. And everything that you've worked for the last three, four years that can set you back another three years. We've got a young group, we've got good players, and we've got good talent. We've just got to get them to play together."

there has got to be our chance to offload someone and maybe even Kenny Thomas (I am sober - I swear). Just read this quote. We have got to shamelessly take advantage of this delusional lunatic and rob the Knicks some more. I am convinced that we could make trade with them that would help us rebuild. Someone needs to make a 5 minute Youtube presentation of KT's triple double game and show it ti IT. This is our chance. We should do the same with Heat and maybe even try to trade with Hornets since they need a bench and they have "things" that we might be able to use. This period should be a do or die for GP.
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Here is where I wanted to talk about the influence that Dickie B. has on our mental health but I will skip it this time because they are many more opportunities to come. Instead I want to comment of some things that Coach T said in the interview to the WGN superstation - especially about a part where he was talking about the playoff hunt saying how these injuries have made it more difficult but when the guys get healthy, bla, bla, bla, yada, yada, yada. He sounded not loke someone who was saying it because - what else can a coach say, but rather he was very serious about it. For the gazillion times now - we will not play past the Lakers game on April 15th. I am worried that even GP and the Maloofs still might think the same because that is a huge problem right there. What if they aren't planing to mage big changes at the trade deadline ? What if we make a run and get close to .500 before the deadline ? What if... ? Who will have energy to watch the 08/09 season being like previous 2 just waiting for Godot ? Is there a pilot in this plane ?
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I have been picking on Quincy Douby because I wasn't happy about where his game is at this moment and I sill am not but the kid has potential and he can shoot. He lacks in defense, passing, ball control, decision making, BB IQ, court vision and other "little" things that are needed to play well on this level. The other problem is that for some reason we are trying to make him play PG which is something he can't do. He likes to shoot too much and just because he is short - that doesn't make him a PG. A Kings PF maybe - but not a PG. This kid should continue to get minutes as SG behind Kevin and he should not have any responsibilities in handling the ball or running plays because we already have way too many turnover machines as it is.
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Another guy who will unfortunately lose minutes is D. Jones. I like what I have seen from him so far. I like the effort and energy and the fact that for the most part - he knows what he can and can not to and he sticks to it. I don't know what kind of contract he has but I hope he sticks around because i think that he has plenty of team spirit and there is never too much of that.
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Bulls finally won a game. They won it with the only point that Benn Wallace scored that night from the FT line and with defensive stop sponsored by Dickie B. Before the - Kings were retarded enough to turn it over when they were in position to score the winning basket. Kings played well even though they were tired from playing big minutes the night before in Cleveland. Bench was big scoring 32 points. Jones and Douby played their best games in Kings uniform. At the end 16 assists on 18 turnovers sounds oh so familiar.
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AWARD TIME

Thomas won the TDM proving that there can be a player named Thomas that can do something right. Ce caused us lots of trouble and we couldn't keep him of the glass. 2 of his 3 blockd were goal tending btw.
LW-VC went to Joe Smith. He was my TDM pick but he was awfull for the most part and he kept us in the game.
Mikki gets the JHA award tonight. His highest stat category was the 6 PFs. Jason Hart would never need 35 minutes PT for it but ... Other than fouling out yet again he showed his soft hands couple times even though he only has one TO credited for.
RA&1 award went to Duhon. He was phenomenal all night long. Too band he didn't get more shots.
WTF moment of the game. I had several in mind but I pick the situation in the 2nd half where we run a staggered double screen for Spencer's only FGA - the 20 foot fade away jump shot. Same one we used to run for Pedja where Vlade and CW opened Pedja for a 20 foot layup fading away to the left. Isn't Spencer like supposed to be tall ? This is crazy. Obviously he didn't hit the shot but just the fact that some moron had an idea to run it - scares me. Get that kid below the basket for Christ sake.
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Magic are next and they are 15-5 on the road and have a tall guy in the middle who can't shoot threes but who wil dunk the ball a lot and he even might get some rebounds. Kings will have to deal with the guys coming back from injuries and that may go either way. Worst case scenario - due to foul trouble - "You know who" will get some minutes and guard Howard. If that happens I will switch the channel and watch anything else. We can win if we keep the rebounding close and have more assists tha turnovers. we will get to see Hedo which is always nice.
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Mike and Kevin - welcome back just in case
Salmons - stop imitating the figure skaters please !
Mikki - have fun fouling out
Brad - keep it up and have fun being on posters

Beno - More passing, less shooting
Jones & QD - more of the same please !
Cisco - should be on the bench to end he half and especially the game
Haves - skip the Pedja imitations and get Your behind under the basket
Williams - at least one block on DH please!
KT - awsome
Coach T - while the princtone offense is great - You have to know Your players. Mikki Moore will not catch balls like Webber did. Spencer isn't Pedja. Those turnovers are retarded and they are killing us.
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Magic are the 3rd best team in the east which means around .500 in the West since they lost at home to the Rockets without TMac. Even Alston scored 20 on them. Howard might have a 30/20 game with 5 blocks. We have 24 fouls to give before KT has to play. I hope 0 it will be enough. Lewis is back from injury and he isn't shooting well. Hedo is playing well and Nelson is playing off the bench. TDM will go to Arroyo, Lewis will get the LW-VC award. Kings might win this one with help from ARCO and extra emotional boost from guys coming back from injuries. It will be another close one. I hope that we don't get a certain female referee.
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[Circa_1985_Fan]

I do think the Magic are much too athletic and good for us to beat, either in their crib or in ours. Hedo is playing the most incredible ball of his career, and he's still young...scary! Hedo, Howard, Lewis...not a bad 'Big 3'. But who knows, if Mike and Kevin come back, that might spur the other guys, too. We should know very soon if we can welcome back the Good Mike from a few years ago, or the Bad Mike from the last couple...he cant keep shooting 40% from the floor on 6-17 shooting every night and be effective to ANY team...all while calling himself a 'point' guard and dishing out less than 6 assists a night. Kevin coming back will definitely be a boost, though.

 

[6th]

Even if Mike, Kevin, or both were back by Tuesday, I would think it would take 2-3 games to shake off the rust. Like you said, Circa, Orlando's been playing pretty good ball. They will be tough to beat. Let's do it anyway.

GO KINGS!!

 

[piksi]

Even if Mike, Kevin, or both were back by Tuesday, I would think it would take 2-3 games to shake off the rust. Like you said, Circa, Orlando's been playing pretty good ball. They will be tough to beat. Let's do it anyway.

GO KINGS!!

first game is different. Fresh Legs and emotions do wonders. Remember Webber's return against the Clippers in 2004

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Remember that the Clippers weren't any good.

 

[6th]

first game is different. Fresh Legs and emotions do wonders. Remember Webber's return against the Clippers in 2004

Good point. Emotions will be running high. My only concern would be how they fit in with the other guys. Timing could be way off. Of course, we have been turning the ball over so much of late that it may not even be noticable.

 

[piksi]

Remember that the Clippers weren't any good.

yes but couple weeks later same opponent and 2-21 from the field

 

[Ryan]

Ill be at the game. Section 115 row X seats one and two if anyone wants to stop by and say hi

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

yes but couple weeks later same opponent and 2-21 from the field

Oh yeah, I remember that game, too. Wasnt pretty.

 

[piksi]

Oh yeah, I remember that game, too. Wasnt pretty.

they had to exchange the rims because of the structural damage. We still won the game despite him. We were that good. He should have never come back that season but with Kings all there is left is a bunch of "what ifs"

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I can see the rationale behind that point of view, but I remain steadfast in my opinion that we were going nowhere that season, with or without Webber. That whole "MVP Season" meme, to say nothing of the "Best Record in the League" one, are what I like to call selective perception.

 

[piksi]

I can see the rationale behind that point of view, but I remain steadfast in my opinion that we were going nowhere that season, with or without Webber. That whole "MVP Season" meme, to say nothing of the "Best Record in the League" one, are what I like to call selective perception.

We will never find out. We know that him coming back didn't help and everything that happened since he came back till the "calling out" teammates after loss to the Wolves didn't help anyone and hurt Kings the most. Things fell apart when he got hurt and if there was any life left in the team - his comeback killed it. I don't blame him for being who his is. He was an amazing player proportional to his ego. After that injury his skills couldn't keep up with the ego. People who pushed him to come back are to blame here.

It is pointless of bringing this up really and painful too.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

We will never find out.

This is indeed true. I think it is quite fair to presume what my point of view on the subject is... I will just add that the Kings, in their Sacramento-era history, have yet to ever win a playoff series when Chris Webber does not play; feel free to take that however you want to.

It is pointless of bringing this up really and painful too.

This is also true; of course, I would say the same thing about Game 6.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

We will never find out. We know that him coming back didn't help and everything that happened since he came back till the "calling out" teammates after loss to the Wolves didn't help anyone and hurt Kings the most. Things fell apart when he got hurt and if there was any life left in the team - his comeback killed it. I don't blame him for being who his is. He was an amazing player proportional to his ego. After that injury his skills couldn't keep up with the ego. People who pushed him to come back are to blame here.

It is pointless of bringing this up really and painful too.

Yup, when he came back and they 'had' to put him back in the starting lineup just because he was the face of the franchise at the time, that killed our momentum. If we would have brought him off the bench(even though he would have never accepted that role), that would have been much better scenario...but instead, we got the 'forced' scenario that messed up the momentum we had at the time. Man, that lineup of Vlade, Peja, Brad, Mike and Doug was working, and if we would have had Webber off the bench, that could have been good. Oh well...tis' what it tis'...hindsight, right?

 

[Nikefutbolero]

so both mike and kevin will be back?

 

[piksi]

I will just add that the Kings, in their Sacramento-era history, have yet to ever win a playoff series when Chris Webber does not play; feel free to take that however you want to.

That is a fact but the same goes for Vlade, Pedja, DC and Bobby.

This is also true; of course, I would say the same thing about Game 6.

games 4,6 and 7 as well as game 2 in Dallas the year after are way worse than painful. they were traumatizing at least.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That is a fact but the same goes for Vlade, Pedja, DC and Bobby.

I don't know, I think you could make the case that we beat Dallas in 2002 without Stojakovic. And it's verifiable that we beat Dallas in 2004 without Jackson.

 

[piksi]

I don't know, I think you could make the case that we beat Dallas in 2002 without Stojakovic. And it's verifiable that we beat Dallas in 2004 without Jackson.

Well You could make a case for anything but Pedja was the best player in the first game of the Mavs series. You could argue - we don't win that one without him. Bobby didn't play in 2004 POs but he was a part of the team. Speculations are one thing and the fact are another thing. And the fact is Webber, Pedja, Vlade DC and Bobby were a part of the team winning every PO series that Kings won in the Sacramento era and they could only do it together. Any time some of them was hurt - it didn't work too well.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Well You could make a case for anything but Pedja was the best player in the first game of the Mavs series. You could argue - we don't win that one without him. Bobby didn't play in 2004 POs but he was a part of the team. Speculations are one thing and the fact are another thing. And the fact is Webber, Pedja, Vlade DC and Bobby were a part of the team winning every PO series that Kings won in the Sacramento era and they could only do it together. Any time some of them was hurt - it didn't work too well.

Jackson was only on that team in spirit: he only played fifty games that whole season, and not a minute of the playoffs, so any argument to the effect of him being a part of the team is semantic at best.

And I dispute the assertion that 26/10 is qualitatively better than 20/10 + 3 blocks or, for that matter, better than 18/16/3 + 1 block... And I would most certainly argue whether we would or would not have won that series without him: In the first place, I dispute the numbers, as previously stated and, in the second place, the pivotal game in that series was Game 3, not Game 1. And Stojakovic did not factor into the outcome of that game, other than in the sense of inspiring Christie to demonstrate his intestinal fortitude and come back out to play when injured.

 

[piksi]

Jackson was only on that team in spirit: he only played fifty games that whole season, and not a minute of the playoffs, so any argument to the effect of him being a part of the team is semantic at best.

And I dispute the assertion that 26/10 is qualitatively better than 20/10 + 3 blocks or, for that matter, better than 18/16/3 + 1 block... And I would most certainly argue whether we would or would not have won that series without him: In the first place, I dispute the numbers, as previously stated and, in the second place, the pivotal game in that series was Game 3, not Game 1. And Stojakovic did not factor into the outcome of that game, other than in the sense of inspiring Christie to demonstrate his intestinal fortitude and come back out to play when injured.

I have that game on tape - did not see the numbers. Game 3 is pivotal because game one was won. We aren't going to agree other than to disagree on this issue. I am not disputing that Webber was the best King before injury. Everything started to unravel which his comeback which was way too soon and at a wrong time. If he sat out the whole season and started fresh in the fall things would have been different. How much different - who knows ? If he came back with the right attitude - knowing that he isn't healthy and willing to do anything to help the team in a minor but much more effective role considering his situation - things would have been different. Didn't happen. He came back with the attitude - I am Webber and I can shoot 2-21 whenever I please because I can and my body can't handle it but I still want my role, minutes, shots, influence and btw I can't guard Garnett anymore but I still have to be on the floor at least until I foul out. I can't guard the paint or have any lift to block a shot but some rebounds will eventually fall in my hands (he did have great hands). Again - I don't know how much it was him and how much it was other people pushing him - it was a wrong move. I knew it then and nothing has changed now. At least - other teams have learned from our mistakes.

 

[Heuge]

Everything started to unravel which his comeback which was way too soon and at a wrong time. If he sat out the whole season and started fresh in the fall things would have been different. How much different - who knows ?

Still contend that our struggles had more to do with schedule then with an early Webb return. The team before Webb had a better record then they actually were.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I have that game on tape - did not see the numbers. Game 3 is pivotal because game one was won. We aren't going to agree other than to disagree on this issue.

Indeed. My position is based on the belief that 1) Stojakovic wasn't the best player in Game 1: leading scorer =/= best player, and Webber and Divac both had games that were just as good, if not better. And 2) We won that game by seventeen points, so I'm not prepared to point to any one player and say that we wouldn't have won that game without him, Webber included.

As to whether Webber was brought back prematurely, I have not argued in favor of him coming back when he did, and will agree that it was mistake to bring him back when we did, so I don't know what the basis of your argument with respect to that is. I do not agree that he should have been brought back in a reduced role... I do, however, feel as though he should have continued to sit out the rest of that season, and returned to his regular role the following season. My contention with respect to that season is not that Webber was rightfully brought back, but that that whole season was a hoax, and we wouldn't have won in the playoffs no matter what.

Basically, I am asserting that we would not, in fact, have finished with the best record, even if Webber hadn't come back, and we still would have lost in the playoffs, probably in the first round instead of the second. In fact, I believe that we would have lost the division to the Lakers regardless, even without Webber, and there's no way that we would have finished with a better record than San Antonio. So, to me, the best-case scenario had us falling to the fourth seed, which would have set us up for a first-round matchup with Dallas anyway, which I feel we would have lost.

 

[piksi]

Still contend that our struggles had more to do with schedule then with an early Webb return. The team before Webb had a better record then they actually were.

And yet most of the experts say - You are what Your record tells You. We might have overachieved a bit but everybody knows that there aren't easy games in the NBA.


We went 11/12 when Webber came back. That isn't even .500. We lost games against teams we beat earlier in the year. We lost to Bucks at home as an example where he shot 7-23 from the field. You can go and check the Bucks record for the year and the Kings record against the East at ARCO. We went to LA without Webber, Miller and Jackson and won that game. All our team stats went to hell. Our defense disappeared because we played 3/5 defense instead of the usual 4/5 (Bibby). We had so many holes - it wasn't even funny. We played 6 back to back sets and went 1-5 and that game that we won in Orlando - he sat out - go figure. Why did opponent FG went crazy when he came back ?

If You watched those last 23 games + PO and You have any objectivity You have - without blaming anyone - to say that it wasn't the right decision for Webber or the Kings.

The right thing to do was - to activate him with 9 games to go, make him serve out the suspension (let's even not go there) and let him play the last game of the season so that NBA doesn't accuse us of cheating. Sit him out for the POs and start fresh the next season. If that would have happen - Kenny Thomas wouldn't have been a King right now.

Things happened the way they did and we can't change that and only thing we can do is speculate - what if.

Bottomline - everything ended and it wasn't pretty. On the bright side, Nets, Suns and now Blazers too have learned from our mistake.

 

[piksi]

Indeed. My position is based on the belief that 1) Stojakovic wasn't the best player in Game 1: leading scorer =/= best player, and Webber and Divac both had games that were just as good, if not better. And 2) We won that game by seventeen points, so I'm not prepared to point to any one player and say that we wouldn't have won that game without him, Webber included.

As to whether Webber was brought back prematurely, I have not argued in favor of him coming back when he did, and will agree that it was mistake to bring him back when we did, so I don't know what the basis of your argument with respect to that is. I do not agree that he should have been brought back in a reduced role... I do, however, feel as though he should have continued to sit out the rest of that season, and returned to his regular role the following season. My contention with respect to that season is not that Webber was rightfully brought back, but that that whole season was a hoax, and we wouldn't have won in the playoffs no matter what.

Basically, I am asserting that we would not, in fact, have finished with the best record, even if Webber hadn't come back, and we still would have lost in the playoffs, probably in the first round instead of the second. In fact, I believe that we would have lost the division to the Lakers regardless, even without Webber, and there's no way that we would have finished with a better record than San Antonio. So, to me, the best-case scenario had us falling to the fourth seed, which would have set us up for a first-round matchup with Dallas anyway, which I feel we would have lost.

I see Your point and we will have to agree to disagree.

BTW I do not believe in concept of hoax in the NBA.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I see Your point and we will have to agree to disagree.

BTW I do not believe in concept of hoax in the NBA.

Wait, so you don't believe in hoax, but you believe in conpsiracy?


EDIT - On second thought, never mind, your honor. I withdraw the question. The prosecution rests.

 

[piksi]

Wait, so you don't believe in hoax, but you believe in conpsiracy?

I believe it only when I see it happen in front of my eyes.

Kings played great that season and it may be hoax for You but for me it was a great team basketball. You can call 44-15 hoax all You want. You don't get to be almost 30 games above .500 on luck and schedule breaks. I don't remember any analyst or a professional who was involved with NBA calling it a hoax. Some of them might not be credible but all of them ??? Sad when other value one more than one value him/herself

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I believe it only when I see it happen in front of my eyes.

Kings played great that season and it may be hoax for You but for me it was a great team basketball. You can call 44-15 hoax all You want. You don't get to be almost 30 games above .500 on luck and schedule breaks. I don't remember any analyst or a professional who was involved with NBA calling it a hoax. Some of them might not be credible but all of them ??? Sad when other value one more than one value him/herself

This means what, exactly?

If you're inferring that I'm taking someone else's word for it that we were overrated, I am not. I watched every game that season, and I saw with my own eyes that we weren't as good as the record indicated. I realized when we got to the All-Star break and actually had a losing record against the "true" elite teams that our record was counterfeit, and that the team wasn't going anywhere.

 

[piksi]

the statement You put in bold was general and not specific.

 

[Heuge]

And yet most of the experts say - You are what Your record tells You. We might have overachieved a bit but everybody knows that there aren't easy games in the NBA.


We went 11/12 when Webber came back. That isn't even .500. We lost games against teams we beat earlier in the year. We lost to Bucks at home as an example where he shot 7-23 from the field. You can go and check the Bucks record for the year and the Kings record against the East at ARCO. We went to LA without Webber, Miller and Jackson and won that game. All our team stats went to hell. Our defense disappeared because we played 3/5 defense instead of the usual 4/5 (Bibby). We had so many holes - it wasn't even funny. We played 6 back to back sets and went 1-5 and that game that we won in Orlando - he sat out - go figure. Why did opponent FG went crazy when he came back ?

If You watched those last 23 games + PO and You have any objectivity You have - without blaming anyone - to say that it wasn't the right decision for Webber or the Kings.

The right thing to do was - to activate him with 9 games to go, make him serve out the suspension (let's even not go there) and let him play the last game of the season so that NBA doesn't accuse us of cheating. Sit him out for the POs and start fresh the next season. If that would have happen - Kenny Thomas wouldn't have been a King right now.

Things happened the way they did and we can't change that and only thing we can do is speculate - what if.

Bottomline - everything ended and it wasn't pretty. On the bright side, Nets, Suns and now Blazers too have learned from our mistake.

Of course I watched those games, and of course we lost games we should have won, but the schedule did change and other circumstances as well did effect us (injuries, etc.) I think saying the fall at the end of the year was due to Webb coming back too early is a cop out. There were other factors. Anyone...well most... who watched the games and followed the Kings would have seen this. Those experts you pointed out did note that as well. Did he come back too early? I really don't know. Was it that decision alone that led to the Kings 11-12 finish? NO

 

[Heuge]

This means what, exactly?

If you're inferring that I'm taking someone else's word for it that we were overrated, I am not. I watched every game that season, and I saw with my own eyes that we weren't as good as the record indicated. I realized when we got to the All-Star break and actually had a losing record against the "true" elite teams that our record was counterfeit, and that the team wasn't going anywhere.

Wheh, Im glad I wasnt the only one who thought that exact same thing.