Looking forward past 2019 (split)

#1
I know a lot of Kings fans (and possibly our front office which is unfortunate) would like to hold us to a specific timeline. Meaning we should be competitive by XYZ year. THIS LINE OF THINKING IS WRONG. There is a time to start making moves that may help improve the team immediately and there is a time to stay patient. Looking at the current state of the team, we should be staying patient.

Unfortunately, many of you have this thinking that we need to be good by next year so the pick that is conveyed into 2019 isn't super valuable. My response to that is why would we sacrifice our future, our potential, & our ceiling as a team just so that another team (in the eastern conference may I add) doesn't get a super high pick? It's ridiculous. The trade is over with and done. We need to focus on how we maximize our ceiling and not worry about how it might look to outsiders.

There are others that think we need to be good in the short term because they are tired of watching us lose. I will be the first one to say that I don't enjoy watching us being a bottom dweller but what would be even harder for me to watch and accept is a team who chooses a path that will help them win more in the short term while it limits their ability to be a real threat down the road. I want my team to be successful. I want my team to win. But most importantly, I want my team to be on a path that leads them to being a top team in this league.


Looking over the roster, does anyone feel confident that any of our players are future stars/superstars/franchise players? I don't, but when I look at guys like Simmons and Mitchell, I get a different feeling. Looking down the roster...
  • Fox hasn't had a bad rookie season but I also wouldn't say he's the savior of this franchise at this point
  • Mason hasn't shown to have franchise player potential as he approaches 24 years of age
  • Bogdanovic is not a dominating presence as he approaches 26 years of age.
  • Hield's a good shooter/scorer but there are a lot of good shooters/scorers in this league, but it doesn't mean they have franchise potential. His age, athleticism, ability to take his man off the dribble, and ability to make plays for his teammates limits him when it comes to having franchise player potential
  • Jackson hasn't shown much and looks to be a role player
  • Labissiere has tools but isn't close to putting it all together right now.
  • Giles is an unknown right now (hopeful unknown nonetheless)
  • Cauley-Stein hasn't shown to have franchise player potential and is already approaching 25

I will say that I'm most hopeful for Fox & Giles with Bogdanovic & Labissiere being long shots, but as it stands right now, I don't think we can be confident about any of these guys.

So what does that mean? We need to continue to put ourselves in a position to add players that have the potential to be franchise players that also align with others in our core. What is the best way to do that you may ask? The draft. So what can we do to set ourselves up to draft a player that has a good shot at becoming a franchise player?
  • Avoiding moves that help us win more when they don't help us in the long run (e.g., signing 30 year old veterans that would add more wins to our win total when they will not be around when the rest of our core hits their prime). This helps us keep our own wins down and thus net a better pick in the upcoming draft.
  • Making trades that send out cap space in exchange for bad contracts and pick(s)/asset(s). Sure, the picks may not be very high or the young player we get back might not have franchise player potential, but when packaged with other assets, they can help you move up in a draft to increase your odds of finding a franchise level player (e.g., #15 & #20 for #10).
Considering we don't have confidence that any of the young guys are franchise players in the making, we need to be of this mindset. Hield & Cauley-Stein are fine players, but the Kings #1 priority is finding multiple franchise level players to build around. With this draft being so deep, I'd probably trade those two for ~10 players entering this draft.

The Pros?
  1. Another shot at a franchise player
  2. Open up another roster spot for more flexibility in future trades
  3. Avoid bleeding talent by losing Cauley-Stein & Hield in free agency in 1-2 years
  4. Or if we resign them, avoid using our valuable cap space on serviceable players when we don't even know who our franchise players are at this point when that cap space can be used as an asset in trades to increase our odds at finding a franchise player
The Cons?
  1. We lose a couple serviceable players that can play a role on a good team.

If we had multiple franchise players on this team, keep the serviceable players to help build around them but we're not at that point yet. That's putting the cart before the horse.


So you've been reading this far and you're probably thinking so what's this know-it-all's plan? What would he do? Well I'll tell you.

2018 Offseason
I'm going to assume that Shumpert, Koufos, & Temple all opt in to their contracts since I don't see them getting more on the open market (but perhaps they do because they'd rather have a long term contract). If we remove Caboclo's qualifying offer but add in our 1st and 2nd round pick next year, we'd have ~$19 mil in cap space and 14 guaranteed contracts for the year. If we were to do a Cauley-Stein & Hield trade for another 1st round pick this year, we'd have ~$24.5 mil in cap space and 13 guaranteed contracts for the year.

I'd immediately be reaching out to other teams in regards to taking on bad contracts that expire after the 2019-20 season for pick compensation. If no takers, I'd give a veteran minimum, 1 year deal to a third string PG and sign Caboclo to a 3 year $6-7 mil deal with the 3rd year being a team option. He's a low risk, high reward type player who has a freakish, athletic profile & is still only 22.

Hard to say who we will draft with the picks really not knowing how the order will shake out so I won't play through that hypothetical.

2018-19 Trade Deadline
After signing Caboclo, the veteran minimum PG, our two 1st round picks, and our 2nd round pick, we'd have 15 guaranteed contracts with ~$20 mil in cap space still. Considering Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, Temple, & the veteran minimum PG are all expiring, we have tons of flexibility if any team is wanting to unload a contract that expires after the 2019-20 season for pick/asset compensation.

Also, at this point, I'm checking in on the team. Are we confident that we have at least two franchise players in Fox, Bogdan, Labissiere, Giles, or our two 1st round picks? If not, I'm most likely starting to think about upcoming deals for Labissiere, Mason, & Bogdanovic considering they are all up for a new contract in 1.5 years. Bogdanovic would be the least likely in this case considering I'm confident in him being the 3rd-4th best player on a great team but if we don't have those 1st-3rd players in front of him, what's the point? We need franchise players to be a top team.

2019 Offseason
This offseason, we'd have Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, Temple, & the PG we signed with the veteran minimum come off the books. We'd have 12 guaranteed contracts if we sign all three of our 2019 2nd round draft picks and would approximately have ~$65 mil in cap space.

Similar to last offseason, I'd be seeing if I can pull off a salary dump deal that unloads contracts that expire after the 2019-20 season (basically a trade that allows a team to sign any current free agents) while also getting pick/asset compensation. If not, I'd sign a few veterans to act as mentors on 1 year deals (who also aren't good enough to affect our record in the upcoming season), and I'd try to vary the size of the deal (e.g., one would be $5 mil, one would be $7 mil, and one would be $10 mil) so that it allows us more flexibility for future trades.

Again, I'm also reassessing the team to see where we are at with our franchise players. Have any emerged or are we still stuck with none at this point? If it's the latter, I'm looking at potentially moving Labissiere, Mason, and/or Bogdanovic for future assets.

2019-20 Trade Deadline
I'm reassessing the team once again. Have we found our franchise players yet? I'd hope by now we know that at least two of Fox, Bogdanovic, Labissiere, Giles, and two 2018 1st round draft picks are going to be those franchise players we need. If not, I'm pushing a little harder to move Labissiere, Mason, & Bogdanovic in trades considering they would be getting a new contract after this season.

However, let's just say we have a few players emerge here as our franchise players, what next? I'd probably look at trading Labissiere & Mason if I feel like they are going to demand too much in their contract next year and I already have adequate replacements for them. Bogdanovic I'd keep he's already a good players that is versatile. Otherwise, I'm sitting tight with the players we got and wait until the offseason.

2020 Offseason
Now that we have much more confidence in a couple of our guys becoming stars/franchise players, it's time to build around them.

I'm hoping that at this time Fox (if not one of the franchise players) is a good starting PG and that means we can let Mason go if he is going to be too expensive or if one of our 2nd round picks (one 2018 2nd, two 2019 2nds, three 2020 2nds) is showing they can easily handle the role on a very cheap deal. Labissiere (if not one of the franchise players) may be let go depending on how talented he is and who else we have at his position already via our future draft picks. Bogdanovic would likely be resigned considering he's a good/solid SG today (thinking around $18-22 mil a year). Caboclo would have a team option this year which could be waived if he never panned out.

After resigning Bogdanovic and potentially letting Labissiere, Mason, & Caboclo walk, we'd have 13 guaranteed contracts with ~$42 mil in cap space. The roster would look like this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogdanovic
SF - Jackson
PF -
C - Giles
*Two 2018 1sts
*One 2018 2nd
*Two 2019 2nds
*One 2020 1st
*Three 2020 2nds

Again, this roster is the assumption that we weren't able to execute any salary dump trades for more assets (highly unlikely), that at least two of these players have shown to be franchise players already, and the if we are unable to sign anybody with $42 mil in cap space (highly unlikely since it's a team that has a couple up and coming franchise players and bunch of other young assets).
 
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#3
This is a quality post.

One thing though: I don't think minimizing the damage of the lost pick and seeing what we have without overcommitting are mutually exclusive. I think what Vlade is doing/trying to do is maintain flexibility in his signings that he can roll over in a season or two for picks/space/whatever. I really think the plan with Hill was to move him next year when he was an expiring for a pick or something of that nature but he went public with his displeasure and forced our hand to move him now. So I expect another type of signing like that this year.

That doesn't mean we won't have plan A in offering a max to a young 4 year talent who is an RFA, but I expect like what happened with Porter whoever we do this with will match the deal.

In the end I think the expectation next year would be a +10 win improvement on where we are this year. So if we end with 25 wins, 35-38 would still have us ~8 out of the playoffs but still be a measurable success.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#4
the Kings will be in the lottery post 2019 lottery but the question remains is, how much will it sting? Then in 2020, as you've stated, the Kings will have another shot at a franchise player if the ping pong balls bounce in favor and/or if the Kings draft properly and do their homework.
 
#5
OK, I am a big fan of quoting posts to which I respond, but, to cut down on the length of my response (including the quoted section), I am NOT going to quote...

I am, however, going to start off by saying that I, respectfully, disagree with your assessment of our overall roster but, more specifically, Bogie. I think the guy's a keeper, and I also believe, from the bottom of my heart, that he will be waaaaay more valuable to this franchise moving forward than Fox.

I also do believe that we have a few additional pieces in place that could potentially work, but I would also be willing to deal them for assets, especially if the right offer is on the table.

As far as my personal response to your 3rd paragraph goes......I absolutely, from the bottom of my heart, and with 100% confidence, AGREE with your assessment. I think it's about darn time this team builds for the long haul, as opposed to "going all in" and "swinging for the fences", only to be good for a few years, and then slowly enter mediocracy once again. We need to build young and establish a stable foundation on which to move forward. I have said this for the longest time to those I discuss Kings basketball with, and I will say this until the day I see it come to fruition.....I honestly believe that this team needs to model their build after that of the San Antonio Spurs. They did this the right way. Sure, they were fortunate that David Robinson got injured, and that they sucked without him for a year. They were fortunate that Tim Duncan was out there that same year. They were fortunate to have a HOF coach in Gregg Popovich. But, they were even more fortunate to have been able to lay that foundation early enough to where all they had to do was shuffle pieces around to make it work for a long period of time. And they made it work.

Now.....Am I saying that it's going to be easy to lay down a blueprint similar to that of the Spurs? Heck to the Flipping No I ain't. But I think it can be done. And, honestly, I'd love to see this team lay down that blueprint. Before anyone else does.

As far as your "plan" is concerned, it's well thought out, it makes sense. Well, at least for the most part, it does. And it's a breath of fresh air to read something like this as opposed to "We need to tank" all the time. Kudos go out to you, Sir/Ma'am.

As was already stated, this is a quality post, and I couldn't find myself being able to move on with my life without coming on here and posting a response.
 
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#6
OK, I am a big fan of quoting posts to which I respond, but, to cut down on the length of my response (including the quoted section), I am NOT going to quote...

I am, however, going to start off by saying that I, respectfully, disagree with your assessment of our overall roster but, more specifically, Bogie. I think the guy's a keeper, and I also believe, from the bottom of my heart, that he will be waaaaay more valuable to this franchise moving forward than Fox.

I also do believe that we have a few additional pieces in place that could potentially work, but I would also be willing to deal them for assets, especially if the right offer is on the table.

As far as my personal response to your 3rd paragraph goes......I absolutely, from the bottom of my heart, and with 100% confidence, AGREE with your assessment. I think it's about darn time this team builds for the long haul, as opposed to "going all in" and "swinging for the fences", only to be good for a few years, and then slowly enter mediocracy once again. We need to build young and establish a stable foundation on which to move forward. I have said this for the longest time to those I discuss Kings basketball with, and I will say this until the day I see it come to fruition.....I honestly believe that this team needs to model their build after that of the San Antonio Spurs. They did this the right way. Sure, they were fortunate that David Robinson got injured, and that they sucked without him for a year. They were fortunate that Tim Duncan was out there that same year. They were fortunate to have a HOF coach in Gregg Popovich. But, they were even more fortunate to have been able to lay that foundation early enough to where all they had to do was shuffle pieces around to make it work for a long period of time. And they made it work.

Now.....Am I saying that it's going to be easy to lay down a blueprint similar to that of the Spurs? Heck to the Flipping No I ain't. But I think it can be done. And, honestly, I'd love to see this team lay down that blueprint. Before anyone else does.

As far as your "plan" is concerned, it's well thought out, it makes sense. Well, at least for the most part, it does. And it's a breath of fresh air to read something like this as opposed to "We need to tank" all the time. Kudos go out to you, Sir/Ma'am.

As was already stated, this is a quality post, and I couldn't find myself being able to move on with my life without coming on here and posting a response.
Hmm...it says that this post was edited by a moderator at 12:09 AM. Is it a terrible thing that I can't identify what the edit was? ;)
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#7
Undervaluing Bogdanovich by a country mile. I believe Fox is one of the franchise cornerstones along with Bogdanovich and then it gets into hoping that Giles and draft pick are the others. I agree we do need patience and what this team needs is to play together and keep growing their game....that takes time.
 
#8
Undervaluing Bogdanovich by a country mile. I believe Fox is one of the franchise cornerstones along with Bogdanovich and then it gets into hoping that Giles and draft pick are the others. I agree we do need patience and what this team needs is to play together and keep growing their game....that takes time.
No, not undervaluing. Just being realistic about the situation. If we’re 2-3 years down the line (meaning Bogdanovic is around 27-28 years old) and we still don’t have multiple franchise players, why are we keeping him? By the time we draft those types of players and they hit their primes, he’s well out of his prime.

The logical thing to do would be to look at moving him. It doesn’t mean I don’t like him. It doesn’t mean I undervalue him. It just means that his timeline would no longer align with the team.

Also you can believe Fox is one of the franchise cornerstones (like I hope he will be) but he hasn’t shown it yet. He’s not performing like a Simmons or Mitchell (yet). Hence why we can’t have a ton of confidence in him at this point. He has the potential, sure. But we can’t count our chickens before they hatch in regards to building the team. You can easily hamstring your franchise and make it harder to be a great team if you go down that route.
 
#9
No, not undervaluing. Just being realistic about the situation. If we’re 2-3 years down the line (meaning Bogdanovic is around 27-28 years old) and we still don’t have multiple franchise players, why are we keeping him? By the time we draft those types of players and they hit their primes, he’s well out of his prime.

The logical thing to do would be to look at moving him. It doesn’t mean I don’t like him. It doesn’t mean I undervalue him. It just means that his timeline would no longer align with the team.

Also you can believe Fox is one of the franchise cornerstones (like I hope he will be) but he hasn’t shown it yet. He’s not performing like a Simmons or Mitchell (yet). Hence why we can’t have a ton of confidence in him at this point. He has the potential, sure. But we can’t count our chickens before they hatch in regards to building the team. You can easily hamstring your franchise and make it harder to be a great team if you go down that route.
You are undervaluing him as a veteran for the young guys that will be coming in at that time...
 
#10
You are undervaluing him as a veteran for the young guys that will be coming in at that time...
No, not really. The point is to find franchise players first. Him mentoring young guys that aren’t that caliber of player is not a priority. I’d rather move him in hopes to get pick compensation back and to lower the win total to help give us a better shot at a franchise player.

If Bogdan becomes one, great! Keep him. If we have other young guys that are worthy of the title franchise player, great! Keep Bogdan. But if we’re sitting here in 2020 and we still have nobody on our roster who is that type of player, I have no issue dealing him in hopes of finding that player down the road. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that and we hit with these picks early.
 
#11
No, not really. The point is to find franchise players first. Him mentoring young guys that aren’t that caliber of player is not a priority. I’d rather move him in hopes to get pick compensation back and to lower the win total to help give us a better shot at a franchise player.

If Bogdan becomes one, great! Keep him. If we have other young guys that are worthy of the title franchise player, great! Keep Bogdan. But if we’re sitting here in 2020 and we still have nobody on our roster who is that type of player, I have no issue dealing him in hopes of finding that player down the road. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that and we hit with these picks early.
In other words, you'd be totally content with sucking for a lengthy period of time until we get enough players to come on board to stop sucking?

How do you think we're going to manage to attract key free agents if we're consistently finding ourselves out of playoff contention year after year?

The key here is to find a way to improve enough to sneak in as an 8th seed (or 7th), show promise for continuous growth, and target free agents to fill in the voids that will allow us to improve our playoff seeding, and also improve our odds to progress further and further in the playoffs, hopefully getting us to the promise land...
 
#12
I disagree. The key here is to establish your franchise players and then go for it. Trying to shoot for the 7th & 8th seed with a handful of guys that are the 3rd or 4th best players on a great team is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. That would mean that your ceiling is limited, and in the end, you are not a real threat.

Attracting free agents does not worry me. If we had a Simmons & Embiid on this team and we were on the rise like the 76ers are right now, I don't think we would have any issue in free agency.

The hardest thing to do is to find these franchise players. That should be our focus.


Circling back to your very first point about being "totally content with sucking for a lengthy period of time," let me quote you from your first reply in this thread:
As far as my personal response to your 3rd paragraph goes......I absolutely, from the bottom of my heart, and with 100% confidence, AGREE with your assessment. I think it's about darn time this team builds for the long haul, as opposed to "going all in" and "swinging for the fences", only to be good for a few years, and then slowly enter mediocracy once again.
And for reference, here is my third paragraph:
There are others that think we need to be good in the short term because they are tired of watching us lose. I will be the first one to say that I don't enjoy watching us being a bottom dweller but what would be even harder for me to watch and accept is a team who chooses a path that will help them win more in the short term while it limits their ability to be a real threat down the road. I want my team to be successful. I want my team to win. But most importantly, I want my team to be on a path that leads them to being a top team in this league.
So did you ever agree with me or did you change your mind? Not trying to be rude. I'm just trying to understand what side of the fence you are on.
 
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#13
I disagree. The key here is to establish your franchise players and then go for it. Trying to shoot for the 7th & 8th seed with a handful of guys that are the 3rd or 4th best players on a great team is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. That would mean that your ceiling is limited, and in the end, you are not a real threat.

Attracting free agents does not worry me. If we had a Simmons & Embiid on this team and we were on the rise like the 76ers are right now, I don't think we would have any issue in free agency.

The hardest thing to do is to find these franchise players. That should be our focus.


Circling back to your very first point about being "totally content with sucking for a lengthy period of time," let me quote you from your first reply in this thread:


And for reference, here is my third paragraph:


So did you ever agree with me or did you change your mind? Not trying to be rude. I'm just trying to understand what side of the fence you are on.
Oh I agreed with you and I did not change my mind.....I am just confused as to why you would want to take a step back by dealing a player who could very well be a key (veteran) piece on this roster. In my personal opinion, you're just undervaluing Bogie's worth to this franchise, both short term, and more so long term. I think he absolutely has to be a piece we hang on to if we want to get past just a playoff berth. I really do. He is a special kid. A very special kid.

And I think it would be a heckuva lot easier to find, and establish, that "franchise player" if you have a bunch of key pieces already in place. No one will want to come to this team as a franchise player if we're still running on a dysfunctional engine.
 
#14
I disagree. The key here is to establish your franchise players and then go for it. Trying to shoot for the 7th & 8th seed with a handful of guys that are the 3rd or 4th best players on a great team is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. That would mean that your ceiling is limited, and in the end, you are not a real threat.

Attracting free agents does not worry me. If we had a Simmons & Embiid on this team and we were on the rise like the 76ers are right now, I don't think we would have any issue in free agency.

The hardest thing to do is to find these franchise players. That should be our focus.


Circling back to your very first point about being "totally content with sucking for a lengthy period of time," let me quote you from your first reply in this thread:


And for reference, here is my third paragraph:


So did you ever agree with me or did you change your mind? Not trying to be rude. I'm just trying to understand what side of the fence you are on.
Oh I agreed with you and I did not change my mind.....I am just confused as to why you would want to take a step back by dealing a player who could very well be a key (veteran) piece on this roster. In my personal opinion, you're just undervaluing Bogie's worth to this franchise, both short term, and more so long term. I think he absolutely has to be a piece we hang on to if we want to get past just a playoff berth. I really do. He is a special kid. A very special kid.

And I think it would be a heckuva lot easier to find, and establish, that "franchise player" if you have a bunch of key pieces already in place. No one will want to come to this team as a franchise player if we're still running on a dysfunctional engine.
But, at the same time, I don't think we need to tank to get that franchise player, either. It will, actually, be much easier to get him if we don't tank and if we show signs of being a great team.
 
#15
Oh I agreed with you and I did not change my mind.....I am just confused as to why you would want to take a step back by dealing a player who could very well be a key (veteran) piece on this roster. In my personal opinion, you're just undervaluing Bogie's worth to this franchise, both short term, and more so long term. I think he absolutely has to be a piece we hang on to if we want to get past just a playoff berth. I really do. He is a special kid. A very special kid.

And I think it would be a heckuva lot easier to find, and establish, that "franchise player" if you have a bunch of key pieces already in place. No one will want to come to this team as a franchise player if we're still running on a dysfunctional engine.
But, at the same time, I don't think we need to tank to get that franchise player, either. It will, actually, be much easier to get him if we don't tank and if we show signs of being a great team.
Signing franchise players in free agency is not easy. Especially for a small market team and especially when you don't even have any franchise players currently on the roster (if we're still sticking to the hypothetical I laid out).

I'm fine taking a step back if it opens up another path that can lead to a more promising future. That's what dealing Bogdan would do. If we have no franchise players and just keep developing our players to be adequate starters then our ceiling is a low seed playoff team. Unless you want to bet on a franchise player opting to sign here even though we have no other franchise player to team up with him.

Doing it my way still allows us the ability to sign these types of free agents (if they are interested) due to the cap flexibility we would maintain, but it also increases our odds of getting such a player because we would still be accumulating high picks to try and draft this type of player AND we would still be in the mindset of gathering young assets/picks which are more attractive to teams looking to move a franchise player type in a trade. So yes, you're approach is possible (signing a franchise player) but my approach still increases those odds. I'll take the odds.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#16
No, not undervaluing. Just being realistic about the situation. If we’re 2-3 years down the line (meaning Bogdanovic is around 27-28 years old) and we still don’t have multiple franchise players, why are we keeping him? By the time we draft those types of players and they hit their primes, he’s well out of his prime.

The logical thing to do would be to look at moving him. It doesn’t mean I don’t like him. It doesn’t mean I undervalue him. It just means that his timeline would no longer align with the team.

Also you can believe Fox is one of the franchise cornerstones (like I hope he will be) but he hasn’t shown it yet. He’s not performing like a Simmons or Mitchell (yet). Hence why we can’t have a ton of confidence in him at this point. He has the potential, sure. But we can’t count our chickens before they hatch in regards to building the team. You can easily hamstring your franchise and make it harder to be a great team if you go down that route.
Completely disagree with your assessment on Bogdanovich and your criteria which appears to be age. 27-28 is not going to be too old nor is it too old for anyone in the NBA. Also, I disagree with your assessment on Fox and that is ok....in my opinion, he's shown me enough to believe he is our franchise PG. Only time will tell on Fox and I feel confidant on it but with Bogdanovich, I believe the better talent we surround him with the better he is as well. He absolutely is a dude you can win with and be part of the big "3" that teams are wanting.
 
#17
Completely disagree with your assessment on Bogdanovich and your criteria which appears to be age. 27-28 is not going to be too old nor is it too old for anyone in the NBA. Also, I disagree with your assessment on Fox and that is ok....in my opinion, he's shown me enough to believe he is our franchise PG. Only time will tell on Fox and I feel confidant on it but with Bogdanovich, I believe the better talent we surround him with the better he is as well. He absolutely is a dude you can win with and be part of the big "3" that teams are wanting.
I'm not surprised to have this sort of response when it comes to Bogdanovic (not Bogdanovich :p).

I love him and the way he plays. He's my favorite King right now, but I'm not going to emotionally attach myself to him when we're talking about building a top team, but if we're operating in the vacuum which was my hypothetical of not having multiple (future) franchise players on the roster in 2020, I don't see how one can't understand the logic. If we still have no established franchise players, that would mean that our best opportunity to get one is through the draft in 2020, 2021, etc. That means Bogdanovic is 28 while our hopeful future franchise player is likely 19 (or even 18 if Silver allows for high schoolers to start coming directly to the NBA). Do you see the issue with the time table now?

His age is now an issue when it comes time for us to actually be a threat. So what do we do with a useful player like Bogdanovic? Move him in a trade for pick compensation/young assets so you can not only help further with the search of a franchise player but it also just helps with acquiring a player that fits our new timeline. Not to mention, it probably saves us around $15-$20 mil in cap space depending on what Bogdanovic would get in his second contract. That's cap space that can be used in trades to help bring in more assets that fits with our new timeline.

Now all of this is moot if Fox shows to be a franchise level player or even if Bogdan shows to be a franchise level player. My hypothetical is really a worst case scenario when none of Fox, Giles, Labissire, Bogdanovic, & the 2018 1st become franchise level players. I just want to make sure the context is kept.
 
#18
I think people over react to the whole age thing. Lets take a look at the 2001-2002 Kings.

Hedo - 22
Bibby - 23
Peja - 24
Jackson - 28
Webber - 28
Christie - 31
Vlade - 33

11 year difference between a future all star in Hedo and our oldest player Vlade. Vlade is 5 years older than Webber. Webber is 5 years older than Bibby.

The whole team doesn't need to consist of guys that are 2-3 years within each other. I keep seeing people harping on the age differences right now with Fox being 20 and Hield/WCS and Bogie being 24 and 25. It's a non issue. The only issue with age is that the latter probably won't improve a ton on what they currently are right now.

I get what twslam is saying with Bogie being 28 when we land the 19 year old franchise player and if you can swing him for something better then you do it but if you can't and you have the now 21 year old hitting his stride when Bogie is 30, you still have what should be a couple good years between the two to be able to play together as one is leaving his prime and the other is entering it.

To me, that's all not really that big of an issue. The issue is going to be finding that franchise talent and it just sucks that if the talent isn't already on the roster and isn't in this draft, we're going to have to wait an extra year to have another shot at it.
 
#19
I'm not surprised to have this sort of response when it comes to Bogdanovic (not Bogdanovich :p).

I love him and the way he plays. He's my favorite King right now, but I'm not going to emotionally attach myself to him when we're talking about building a top team, but if we're operating in the vacuum which was my hypothetical of not having multiple (future) franchise players on the roster in 2020, I don't see how one can't understand the logic. If we still have no established franchise players, that would mean that our best opportunity to get one is through the draft in 2020, 2021, etc. That means Bogdanovic is 28 while our hopeful future franchise player is likely 19 (or even 18 if Silver allows for high schoolers to start coming directly to the NBA). Do you see the issue with the time table now?

His age is now an issue when it comes time for us to actually be a threat. So what do we do with a useful player like Bogdanovic? Move him in a trade for pick compensation/young assets so you can not only help further with the search of a franchise player but it also just helps with acquiring a player that fits our new timeline. Not to mention, it probably saves us around $15-$20 mil in cap space depending on what Bogdanovic would get in his second contract. That's cap space that can be used in trades to help bring in more assets that fits with our new timeline.

Now all of this is moot if Fox shows to be a franchise level player or even if Bogdan shows to be a franchise level player. My hypothetical is really a worst case scenario when none of Fox, Giles, Labissire, Bogdanovic, & the 2018 1st become franchise level players. I just want to make sure the context is kept.
When the Spurs won # 1 with Tim Duncan, he was 23, while David Robinson was 33. Tim Duncan = hopeful future franchise player. How did that work out for the Spurs in the end?????

Do you see my issue with your issue with the time table now?
 
#20
I think people over react to the whole age thing. Lets take a look at the 2001-2002 Kings.

Hedo - 22
Bibby - 23
Peja - 24
Jackson - 28
Webber - 28
Christie - 31
Vlade - 33

11 year difference between a future all star in Hedo and our oldest player Vlade. Vlade is 5 years older than Webber. Webber is 5 years older than Bibby.

The whole team doesn't need to consist of guys that are 2-3 years within each other. I keep seeing people harping on the age differences right now with Fox being 20 and Hield/WCS and Bogie being 24 and 25. It's a non issue. The only issue with age is that the latter probably won't improve a ton on what they currently are right now.

I get what twslam is saying with Bogie being 28 when we land the 19 year old franchise player and if you can swing him for something better then you do it but if you can't and you have the now 21 year old hitting his stride when Bogie is 30, you still have what should be a couple good years between the two to be able to play together as one is leaving his prime and the other is entering it.

To me, that's all not really that big of an issue. The issue is going to be finding that franchise talent and it just sucks that if the talent isn't already on the roster and isn't in this draft, we're going to have to wait an extra year to have another shot at it.
I, too, get what he/she is saying. I just don't understand the logic behind it. That's all. :)
 
#21
I think people over react to the whole age thing. Lets take a look at the 2001-2002 Kings.

Hedo - 22
Bibby - 23
Peja - 24
Jackson - 28
Webber - 28
Christie - 31
Vlade - 33

11 year difference between a future all star in Hedo and our oldest player Vlade. Vlade is 5 years older than Webber. Webber is 5 years older than Bibby.

The whole team doesn't need to consist of guys that are 2-3 years within each other. I keep seeing people harping on the age differences right now with Fox being 20 and Hield/WCS and Bogie being 24 and 25. It's a non issue. The only issue with age is that the latter probably won't improve a ton on what they currently are right now.

I get what twslam is saying with Bogie being 28 when we land the 19 year old franchise player and if you can swing him for something better then you do it but if you can't and you have the now 21 year old hitting his stride when Bogie is 30, you still have what should be a couple good years between the two to be able to play together as one is leaving his prime and the other is entering it.

To me, that's all not really that big of an issue. The issue is going to be finding that franchise talent and it just sucks that if the talent isn't already on the roster and isn't in this draft, we're going to have to wait an extra year to have another shot at it.
Very good points, and I accept them. However, you can't deny that it makes the window for opportunity small.

This entire hypothetical that I have laid out is not even making the assumption that the 19 year old we draft when Bogie is 28 is even going to be a franchise player. What if that pick misses as well? The point of this entire thread is to prioritize franchise players. You're not going to win with Bogdanovic as your best player, so if I need to sacrifice him to find that type of player, I will. I'm not saying we should do it this offseason or next offseason, but I'm saying if we continue to miss when it comes to accumulating franchise level talent, he will become expendable.

As I have mentioned many times before, if we have our franchise players, Bogdan would be a great fit around them. It's like having Andre Iguodala as your best player. Hell of a player and a great complementary piece, but you're going nowhere if you don't find those franchise players first.

It's much easier to find players that have the impact of Bogdan than to find franchise players. Don't put the cart before the horse.
 
#22
Every fanbase overrates their own player and I think there's a lot of emotional attachment with Kings fans...especially with Bogdan. I have a big feeling that it's because he reminds fans of Peja. I didn't hear Bucks fans call Malcom Brogdon their future franchise player, but I'm seeing a chunk of people who think that he is a 20+ppg scorer.
Compare their rookie numbers:

Malcom: 24 yearsold: 10.2pts/4.7asts/2.8rebs/1.1stls/1.5tos -----45.7/40.4/86.5

Bogdan: 25 yearsold: 11.7pts/3.4asts/2.9rebs/1.0stls/1.6tos -----45.4/39.3/85.4

Same with Fox who's been getting crowned our franchise player without earning the label. Neither guys are bluechip prospects, and that's exactly what the Kings need. We need a bluechip prospect to compete in the NBA.
 
#23
When the Spurs won # 1 with Tim Duncan, he was 23, while David Robinson was 33. Tim Duncan = hopeful future franchise player. How did that work out for the Spurs in the end?????

Do you see my issue with your issue with the time table now?
This isn't a good example, and I'll tell you why.

The year before they drafted Duncan, the Spurs won 59 games and were a #2 seed. They were already a top team and knocking on the door with Robinson (30), Elliot (27), Johnson (30), & Del Negro (29). Why would they be moving a guy like Robinson or Elliot when they are already a top team? They already had their stars and they were trying to compete for a title.

Then the next year, Robinson gets hurt very early in the season and the Spurs win 20 games and land the #1 overall pick and draft Duncan. Duncan immediately comes into the league and puts up (AS A ROOKIE):

.577 TS% / 21.1 PPG / 11.9 RPG / 2.7 APG / 0.7 SPG / 2.5 BPG / 3.4 TOPG

They were literally at 59 wins the year before without Duncan and now they have just added a player who can put up that stat line. Why the hell would you touch it?!

Now coming back to the hypothetical, do we think a Bogdanovic led team (when we have already decided that there are no future franchise players at this point) would be a #2 seed in the western conference and be winning close to 59 games? Hell no. If we were winning that much, that means we have a couple stars on the roster already. If somehow you can add another star rookie in draft, keep him.

But this example is nowhere near the hypothetical that I laid out. Let's at least be fair when discussing.
 
#24
This isn't a good example, and I'll tell you why.

The year before they drafted Duncan, the Spurs won 59 games and were a #2 seed. They were already a top team and knocking on the door with Robinson (30), Elliot (27), Johnson (30), & Del Negro (29). Why would they be moving a guy like Robinson or Elliot when they are already a top team? They already had their stars and they were trying to compete for a title.

Then the next year, Robinson gets hurt very early in the season and the Spurs win 20 games and land the #1 overall pick and draft Duncan. Duncan immediately comes into the league and puts up (AS A ROOKIE):

.577 TS% / 21.1 PPG / 11.9 RPG / 2.7 APG / 0.7 SPG / 2.5 BPG / 3.4 TOPG

They were literally at 59 wins the year before without Duncan and now they have just added a player who can put up that stat line. Why the hell would you touch it?!

Now coming back to the hypothetical, do we think a Bogdanovic led team (when we have already decided that there are no future franchise players at this point) would be a #2 seed in the western conference and be winning close to 59 games? Hell no. If we were winning that much, that means we have a couple stars on the roster already. If somehow you can add another star rookie in draft, keep him.

But this example is nowhere near the hypothetical that I laid out. Let's at least be fair when discussing.
Where you're failing to understand me, without me having to come out and actually stating this, is that I never said I expect Bogie to be THAT franchise player. But I would not be so darn quick as to already come out and say that I would trade him in order to get THAT franchise player. Bogie is the type of player we may need to succeed, even WITH THAT franchise player. You just don't go out and trade every freaking piece worth value in hopes of landing that franchise player. Right now, Bogie is clearly approaching the status of being OUR number 1 guy. On OUR roster as it is currently constructed. You don't trade your number 1 guy in hopes of positioning yourself to land someone who you HOPE becomes your FUTURE number 1 guy. It don't work like that, unfortunately.
 
#25
Where you're failing to understand me, without me having to come out and actually stating this, is that I never said I expect Bogie to be THAT franchise player. But I would not be so darn quick as to already come out and say that I would trade him in order to get THAT franchise player. Bogie is the type of player we may need to succeed, even WITH THAT franchise player. You just don't go out and trade every freaking piece worth value in hopes of landing that franchise player. Right now, Bogie is clearly approaching the status of being OUR number 1 guy. On OUR roster as it is currently constructed. You don't trade your number 1 guy in hopes of positioning yourself to land someone who you HOPE becomes your FUTURE number 1 guy. It don't work like that, unfortunately.
Actually, you do. And this is probably where we disagree.

If Bogdanovic is never going to be good enough to be a #1 or #2 guy on a great team and this team has no franchise player level talent when he is (in my hypothetical) 28, you most certainly make him available to help you find that type of player.

I'm not saying you won't need players like Bogdan to fit around your franchise players. Quite the contrary, but like I mentioned before, it's much easier to find players with Bogdan's impact than it is to find a franchise level player. And without a franchise level player, you're going nowhere.

Just this past offseason, the Bulls traded away Butler in hopes that they can go down a path that can lead them to a top team one day. So to discredit your statement, the Bulls traded away their #1 (who is a much better player than Bogdanovic) in hopes of finding a new #1 either by the players they acquired in the trade or by the fact that their wins will be limited this year giving them another shot in the upcoming draft.
 
#26
Actually, you do. And this is probably where we disagree.

If Bogdanovic is never going to be good enough to be a #1 or #2 guy on a great team and this team has no franchise player level talent when he is (in my hypothetical) 28, you most certainly make him available to help you find that type of player.

I'm not saying you won't need players like Bogdan to fit around your franchise players. Quite the contrary, but like I mentioned before, it's much easier to find players with Bogdan's impact than it is to find a franchise level player. And without a franchise level player, you're going nowhere.
If I do, as you claim I do, I would come out and state it verbatim, which I never have, and never will. Because I do not...

To respond to your last statement.....It is actually a lot easier to ATTRACT a franchise player if we already have role players who can play with that franchise player. Bogie is clearly one of those role players who would be able to compliment a franchise player. So, we keep him. Get rid of Bogie, and who do you have on this team that will make a FRANCHISE player think "Yeah, I want to go to Sacramento to play with HIM!!!" No one else on the current roster. And you're putting WAAAAAAY too much stock in a future draft pick being that guy as well. Just ask Portland. If my memory serves me well, Greg Oden was supposed to be that guy up in Portland. What if our future draft pick, who you would like to be THAT GUY, turns out like Greg Oden? Then what? You're giving up all of your assets to get that guy, and if that guy goes down with a career-ending injury, you're going right back to square 1. Is that what you want?
 
#27
If I do, as you claim I do, I would come out and state it verbatim, which I never have, and never will. Because I do not...

To respond to your last statement.....It is actually a lot easier to ATTRACT a franchise player if we already have role players who can play with that franchise player. Bogie is clearly one of those role players who would be able to compliment a franchise player. So, we keep him. Get rid of Bogie, and who do you have on this team that will make a FRANCHISE player think "Yeah, I want to go to Sacramento to play with HIM!!!" No one else on the current roster. And you're putting WAAAAAAY too much stock in a future draft pick being that guy as well. Just ask Portland. If my memory serves me well, Greg Oden was supposed to be that guy up in Portland. What if our future draft pick, who you would like to be THAT GUY, turns out like Greg Oden? Then what? You're giving up all of your assets to get that guy, and if that guy goes down with a career-ending injury, you're going right back to square 1. Is that what you want?
I don't know what you mean by the first sentence. I'm replying to "You don't trade your number 1 guy in hopes of positioning yourself to land someone who you HOPE becomes your FUTURE number 1 guy." I'm saying you do. And my Jimmy Butler example lays that out pretty clearly.

You know what's a better way to attract a franchise player? Already having a franchise player on the roster.

I'm not putting too much stock on the draft. If an Oden situation happens, try again next year. You don't start handing out big contracts and adding role players when you don't even know who your stars are yet. That's how you end up being a treadmill team. That may be okay with a lot of fans in regards to always fighting for that 7th-8th spot with the dream that a franchise player will look at our roster full of roleplayers and sign with us, but that is wishful thinking.

Vlade is our biggest signing. To think free agency is going to yield our franchise player is hopeful thinking and a risky solution to say the least. Collect assets, stay young, & maintain cap flexibility until you know who your stars are. After you have succeeded with step 1 (finding your franchise players), use your cap space to see if any additional franchise players want to come play with your very promising core and/or add guys like Bogdan to fit around them.
 
#28
Every fanbase overrates their own player and I think there's a lot of emotional attachment with Kings fans...especially with Bogdan. I have a big feeling that it's because he reminds fans of Peja. I didn't hear Bucks fans call Malcom Brogdon their future franchise player, but I'm seeing a chunk of people who think that he is a 20+ppg scorer.
Compare their rookie numbers:

Malcom: 24 yearsold: 10.2pts/4.7asts/2.8rebs/1.1stls/1.5tos -----45.7/40.4/86.5

Bogdan: 25 yearsold: 11.7pts/3.4asts/2.9rebs/1.0stls/1.6tos -----45.4/39.3/85.4

Same with Fox who's been getting crowned our franchise player without earning the label. Neither guys are bluechip prospects, and that's exactly what the Kings need. We need a bluechip prospect to compete in the NBA.
This post is a direct shot at Bogdan insulting to say the least
 
#29
If I do, as you claim I do, I would come out and state it verbatim, which I never have, and never will. Because I do not...

To respond to your last statement.....It is actually a lot easier to ATTRACT a franchise player if we already have role players who can play with that franchise player. Bogie is clearly one of those role players who would be able to compliment a franchise player. So, we keep him. Get rid of Bogie, and who do you have on this team that will make a FRANCHISE player think "Yeah, I want to go to Sacramento to play with HIM!!!" No one else on the current roster. And you're putting WAAAAAAY too much stock in a future draft pick being that guy as well. Just ask Portland. If my memory serves me well, Greg Oden was supposed to be that guy up in Portland. What if our future draft pick, who you would like to be THAT GUY, turns out like Greg Oden? Then what? You're giving up all of your assets to get that guy, and if that guy goes down with a career-ending injury, you're going right back to square 1. Is that what you want?
Vlade Divac
George Hill
Bobby Jackson
Kosta Koufos
Jim Jackson
Keon Clark
Scot Pollard
Anthony Peeler

Those are the best free agent signings in the last 25 years that I can think of off the top of my head. We can basically guarantee that a franchise player will never up and sign with the Kings for any reason at all and they rarely hit free agency anyway.

If a franchise player winds up here it'll either be through the draft or through a lucky trade.
 
#30
I don't know what you mean by the first sentence. I'm replying to "You don't trade your number 1 guy in hopes of positioning yourself to land someone who you HOPE becomes your FUTURE number 1 guy." I'm saying you do. And my Jimmy Butler example lays that out pretty clearly.

You know what's a better way to attract a franchise player? Already having a franchise player on the roster.

I'm not putting too much stock on the draft. If an Oden situation happens, try again next year. You don't start handing out big contracts and adding role players when you don't even know who your stars are yet. That's how you end up being a treadmill team. That may be okay with a lot of fans in regards to always fighting for that 7th-8th spot with the dream that a franchise player will look at our roster full of roleplayers and sign with us, but that is wishful thinking.

Vlade is our biggest signing. To think free agency is going to yield our franchise player is hopeful thinking and a risky solution to say the least. Collect assets, stay young, & maintain cap flexibility until you know who your stars are. After you have succeeded with step 1 (finding your franchise players), use your cap space to see if any additional franchise players want to come play with your very promising core and/or add guys like Bogdan to fit around them.
OK.....regarding the first part, I misunderstood your original comment, as I thought you were trying to tell me that I actually think Bogie is going to be that player. Apologies, I wasn't aware that you were responding to the rest of that post...

I am going to, however, still disagree with you when you say that you do trade your best player to potentially land a franchise player in the draft. There are way too many unknowns that make that a risky move.