Let's try this again

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
It seems we have two options as Kings fans:

1. Rebuild

2. Win now


If the Kings go towards rebuilding, Kevin Martin won't be moved, for obvious reasons. (Youth, potential, etc.) He would be one of the cornerstones of the franchise if he keeps improving the way he is currently doing. Personnel movement may involve Bibby/Miller/whomever.

HOWEVER

If the Kings/Maloofs are looking at the team and see a group of veterans needing JUST THE RIGHT PLAYER, Martin may be a great trading tool for the above mentioned reasons. In this scenario, the Kings would use Martin for an established vet like a Gasol, or someone that Petrie things would bring back some positive direction, a playoff push (or more.)

What then is it, Kings fans?

Both views make sense, as you can look at this roster and see they are a player away. You can also look at this roster and see that they won't fit the style of play that Muss is looking for (whatever that style is, which belongs in another thread.)
 
if we can rebuild without missing the playoffs im all for it. but i'd rather win now. more than anything. it worked for the spurs.
 
The spurs had the worst record in the nba in like 1995 and had the first pick in the trade...tim duncan!!!!! You can go to the playoffs and rebuild if you have a top 5 NBA player....we dont even have a top 25 (All around i'm saying.) Artest is top 5 defensively for sure.
 
More than anything, the Spurs lucked into getting Duncan. David Robinson was injured the season before and his absence in the lineup is the only reason why their record (20-62) was bad enough to get them the top pick.
 
Rebuild.

Kings aren't good enough to piece together a "win now" team with what we've got to offer in trades and who is available out there. Unless you mean by "win now" a team that squeaks into the playoffs.
 
well just looking at what the spurs did from 98 till current. duncan is the only player that remain from that 99 championship and they've still been title contenders ever since. never lost a step. their management has done a fabo job bringing in the right players. why cant the kings do that? we have bibby. we have artest. we can do it.
 
well just looking at what the spurs did from 98 till current. duncan is the only player that remain from that 99 championship and they've still been title contenders ever since. never lost a step. their management has done a fabo job bringing in the right players. why cant the kings do that? we have bibby. we have artest. we can do it.

There's your answer. Tim Duncan...
 
I think they call this a conundrum. It looks like the Kings (Petrie, Maloofs and a little Musselman) are in a mish-mash of a little of both. On the one hand "it isn't working" 20 games in to the new season. Brad in or out doesn't seem to have an effect, yet anyway.

The started off on the right defensive foot when other teams had yet to establish their games. Now the defense is all but non-existant in two specific areas: perimeter shoooting, in the paint. The offense has no pattern, no flow, no consistency. They are passing around a bit more in the last 3 games but it doesn't seem to be creating shots. It's like they are passing around because they have to not because they are trying to create shots.

With Bibby in a perimeter shooting funk, that leaves only Kevin. And Salmons in the background. Hmmm......

Brad is not the problem as well as not being the solution either. With many teams now going small, a big, slow, passing center doesn't help. SAR as a 5 is more a shooter than defender and passing big guy. KT rebounds much better but is not a shooter and doesn't pass help others get baskets.

So, the conundrum iss "rebuild" or win now? Rebuild just to make the playoffs is a band aid. To rebuild is to form a new team around a core of players. But who are the Kings real "core"? Kevin for sure but then who else? Bibby is waning and Brad is a true "big" in a league going to playing "small". Ron Ron is a defensive all-star but his offense in the current setup is only just coming around: go to the bucket and get your points withing 10 ft of the basket.

After that who picks up the offensive load?

Cisco has yet to define his contribution or role and is inconsisetent. Douby is an unknown and supposed great shooter. Ronnie Price is a nasty knat on defense but hasn't yet shown he can be a true PG and make others better.

Bibby is a 2-guard, a shooting guard.

Kevin is a shooting guard.

But what else becomes the core? I don't see it. Sounds like rebuild to me. But that also means having high draft choice and cap room. Which makes a quick fix a tougher problem.
 
What's ironic to me about all the calls to rebuild is that the Kings are in the midst of rebuilding. What people call rebuilding on this board, though, seems to mean either 1) unrealistic ideas about trading our good players for high draft picks (not happening, sorry, at least not in this draft) or 2) calls to just tear everything down for the sake of tearing everything down.

Good front offices are patient but opportunistic, and the Kings have a good front office. You don't just squander your talent for the sake of being crappy. If a deal came down the pipes to trade Brad Miller or Bibby for an expiring and draft pick -- sure, go for it. But you know what happens when you hold a fire sale? You get a whole lot of nothing.

And patience pays dividends. The Kings could very well have the best offer for Iverson (or might have had, if they're really out of it) . They'll be right in the inevitable KG mix. There are very tradeable parts. But you don't just make deals for the sake of making deals or tear everything down for the sake of tearing everything down.

Patience patience patience. This is a talented, underachieving team. There are tradeable players. The cap situation is really good. Let's just try to enjoy losing games as much as possible because this is the year to lose games.
 
im not upset that we're losing games. im upset that we're losing games in this fashion. this is the same team that closed out the regular season last year with one of the best records. and now they are playing like garbage. maybe its the coach. maybe its injuries. i didnt expect for them to suck like this.
 
im not upset that we're losing games. im upset that we're losing games in this fashion.

Dude, you think the rest of us are happy about losing?

this is the same team that closed out the regular season last year with one of the best records. and now they are playing like garbage.

Nope, not the same team...

maybe its the coach. maybe its injuries. i didnt expect for them to suck like this.

There's the problem in a nutshell. The team hasn't lived up to YOUR expectations. Unfortunately, they're doing exactly what a number of us feared would happen, especially with the injuries that have occured.

This isn't a good combination of players. You can have great players but if they don't all fit together well, you aren't going to be successful. Right now, we still have a huge gaping wound at the 4, regardless of how hard Kenny and SAR try to fill it. We need STRENGTH at the power forward position. Until we get it, we're going to have major problems.
 
my standards are simple. i expected this team to at least be at .500

we still have all the pieces except for bonzi. and even he really wasnt apart of our great run at the end of regular season last year. it was martin.
 
my standards are simple. i expected this team to at least be at .500

we still have all the pieces except for bonzi. and even he really wasnt apart of our great run at the end of regular season last year. it was martin.

I sometimes wonder where people keep on getting this from. Bonzi was back for the entire month of March and April and took back over as the starter for our stretch run.

http://basketballreference.com/players/playerlog.htm?yr=2005&ilkid=WELLSBO01

Losing that extra weapon has hurt. Certainly not the only factor, but a significant one.
 
This by the way is a very respectable thread given that a large part of our stifling mediocrity stems from the appearance that we are trying to have our cake and eat it too, and in the process its rotting.

Fact is that "win now" requires a big splash move, at least if "win now" is to be interpreted as something other than the loser's strategy of just making the playoffs. But to contend? We ain't remotely close (obviously). And its not adding one good piece, not even one good interior defender. We are miles and miles from a championship, and so if "win now" is anything but a cowardly excuse for "I'm sitting over here in the corner sucking my thumb too afraid to do what needs to be done", we would need major ripping and shredding moves anyway. Basically we are at least 1 bgitime full fledged star from being serious. Hence the A.I. flirtation, and the KG pipedreams.

On the other hand, we are floating almost naturally toward a rebuild year, and all it takes is a little push for it to happen. A couple of vets for picks/kids/enders, and we can come out of next summer with a young roster, hopefully at least one lottery stud, and try to start over. If we can pull off the hail mary for KG or whoever, sure, let's spin this around and give it some more whacks. But failing that, show some cahones, break down all the late 20/early 30 pieces into youth, hope Artest keeps his head together, and start over. Its the way you get good in the end.
 
Last edited:
I agree it's time for cajones Brick except...i don't think Ron will be the one to keep it together. I don't think he's the guy to build around, and this is based on his clueless shot-taking in stretch time. He works his butt off, but he is not all there. IMO we should admit HE was a mistake. The mental issues are real. I liked watching him last year, swore by him for a bit, but I have hit the panick button. I see things in him that a destructive to a team. I suddenly see signs of Mike Tyson.

Ultimately, aside from our cool honeymoon run late last year, I think Ron Artest is a mistake. He's not the only one - the roster has the same problems. If we can move him and rebuild, I'd be happier.
 
Agreed. Ron is a very good player but we dont have enough around him on this team to do well. He was a great fit for Indiana...but bad he's freakin nuts lol
 
^I sort of agree on the Ron comments and sort of don't. We're seeing what life is like with Ron as your best player and it ain't pretty. It's not that I don't think he's worth building around or that he can't be on a winning team (he was, after all, on a 61 win team), just that Ron can't be your alpha dog. He needs to be kept in check on offense and kept in the right mindset. So I think a big part of the "home run" strategy for an AI or KG is to get the alpha dog that everyone else can play off of and that, through force of personality, can keep Ron's bad instincts in check.

So I don't even think it's a matter of win now or rebuild. It's either find that alpha dog or waste Ron's best years and risk an implosion.

I think the best comments people have made is that this is a team full of second options. This team has been in dire, dire need of an actual, real, positive, honest-to-god leader ever since the Webber trade. I thought Ron might be that guy, but he's not. He's a tonesetter, but he's leading the team into jack-a-shot land.

So the home run/win now strategy, while not particularly good odds, seems to be the best option, in my opinion. Short of finding an alpha dog (or alpha coach -- Phil Jackson/Pat Riley/pre-Knick Larry Brown type and lol about Musselman being that guy), I'm just not sure rebuilding with Ron as your best player makes much sense. This needs to be someone else's team with Ron as second fiddle or it's going to be pretty ugly and possibly disastrous.
 
^I sort of agree on the Ron comments and sort of don't. We're seeing what life is like with Ron as your best player and it ain't pretty. It's not that I don't think he's worth building around or that he can't be on a winning team (he was, after all, on a 61 win team), just that Ron can't be your alpha dog. He needs to be kept in check on offense and kept in the right mindset. So I think a big part of the "home run" strategy for an AI or KG is to get the alpha dog that everyone else can play off of and that, through force of personality, can keep Ron's bad instincts in check.

So I don't even think it's a matter of win now or rebuild. It's either find that alpha dog or waste Ron's best years and risk an implosion.

I think the best comments people have made is that this is a team full of second options. This team has been in dire, dire need of an actual, real, positive, honest-to-god leader ever since the Webber trade. I thought Ron might be that guy, but he's not. He's a tonesetter, but he's leading the team into jack-a-shot land.

So the home run/win now strategy, while not particularly good odds, seems to be the best option, in my opinion. Short of finding an alpha dog (or alpha coach -- Phil Jackson/Pat Riley/pre-Knick Larry Brown type and lol about Musselman being that guy), I'm just not sure rebuilding with Ron as your best player makes much sense. This needs to be someone else's team with Ron as second fiddle or it's going to be pretty ugly and possibly disastrous.

I agree completely...I just don't see Ron tolerating a rebuilding process. It comes down to trying to win now with Ron or rebuilding without him, IMHO.
 
^I sort of agree on the Ron comments and sort of don't. We're seeing what life is like with Ron as your best player and it ain't pretty. It's not that I don't think he's worth building around or that he can't be on a winning team (he was, after all, on a 61 win team), just that Ron can't be your alpha dog. He needs to be kept in check on offense and kept in the right mindset. So I think a big part of the "home run" strategy for an AI or KG is to get the alpha dog that everyone else can play off of and that, through force of personality, can keep Ron's bad instincts in check.

So I don't even think it's a matter of win now or rebuild. It's either find that alpha dog or waste Ron's best years and risk an implosion.

I think the best comments people have made is that this is a team full of second options. This team has been in dire, dire need of an actual, real, positive, honest-to-god leader ever since the Webber trade. I thought Ron might be that guy, but he's not. He's a tonesetter, but he's leading the team into jack-a-shot land.

So the home run/win now strategy, while not particularly good odds, seems to be the best option, in my opinion. Short of finding an alpha dog (or alpha coach -- Phil Jackson/Pat Riley/pre-Knick Larry Brown type and lol about Musselman being that guy), I'm just not sure rebuilding with Ron as your best player makes much sense. This needs to be someone else's team with Ron as second fiddle or it's going to be pretty ugly and possibly disastrous.


I would agree with virtually all of that, but with one extra conclusion and some points of emphasis:

1) what is needed is an alpha dog, absolutely. Ron needs to be the #2. As a #2 Ron and Jermaine (who isn't even a very strong #1) won 61 games and were a rising power. I was quite impressed with Ron's ability to turn around our season last year -- showed he was much closer to a #1 than a I thought he was. But always suspected it was a bit of a fluke/short term momentum thing that wasn't truly sustainable, and my suspicions have been largely confirmed.

2) the remark about the coach is also on point -- this is a real problem. In the absence of the alpha dog last year we had Mike Bibby, but also just as critically a veteran coach who, all appearances aside, was much much stronger than Muss has proven to be so far. Just a stronger presence. 700 wins, 8 straight playoff seasons, and with a system and definite principles that he insisted upon. As the new guy faced with the long history of proven success, Ron had to respect that. At least in the short term. Who knows how it would have eventually gone. But Rick had stature, and Mike as his long time star player had extra stature for that reason as well. Now take that away, replace it with new in town Muss, who is young, looks younger, has no history of success in the NBA, hired an even younger staff of assistants who look like they could be in college, throw in the early stature robbing drunk driving thing, and the power relationship has definitely shifted. Basically Ron thinks he knows better than this coach, and has now been questioning him on both sides of the ball. (heck, he might be right ;) ). In the absence of an alpha dog player, at least a big experienced coach might have had a shot, but we have neither. Do not know how/if Muss can acheive that stature in Ron's eyes. And unfortunately its almost as hard to find a coach of that level as it is to find a player of that level. One or the other is needed though.

3) Where I draw the extra conclusion is this -- our "win now" strategy would almost of necessity involve a trade for a major star. But the flipside, the alternate rebuild strategy STILL has to net us a guy who is going to take over as the #1 from Ron. Hence the lose now, draft high, get stud strategy. If we can't steal somebody else's star, then we need to dive down and draft one. Hard to come by at #15, even in this draft. But at #8 or so, you might still get one. The trick/question there is if a young guy is going to have the force of personality/confidence/feel to gain Ron's respect as a superior option. Lebron could have. But he was pretty special.


So in the end I do not see a problem...well...an ABSOLUTE problem with rebuilding with Ron. The point of the rebuilding process is the same as the "win now" hail mary: make Ron Artest your second best player. Rebuilding AROUND Ron, with the idea that all you need to do is add secondary players with him as the #1? No. But rebuild, TRULY tear down and rebuild in search of a #1 to Ron's #2 and Kevin's #3 could work. The danger there is not on court, but off of it.
 
Last edited:
Losing that extra weapon has hurt. Certainly not the only factor, but a significant one.[/quote]
Couldn't agree with you any more. KMart is pretty good...but having Bonzi in the lineup just made us so much tougher on both ends of the floor. I agree Artest shouldn't be our #1 option offensively, but defensively he is and we should keep him till the end of his contract.
 
Back
Top