Let's talk about Troy Williams

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#1

Here's the free part of the article:

There’s no ignoring the Kings’ Troy Williams problem.

Williams isn’t a problem in the sense that teammates do not like him or that he doesn’t make a difference on the court. The Kings need help on the perimeter, but in an ideal world, it would come from Justin Jackson, a player the team used a first-round draft pick on in 2017.

But it’s Williams, a two-way player who is making a difference on the court, putting the Kings in a quandary again. He has stood out, shooting 64.7 percent, averaging 7.5 points and 2.8 rebounds in four games. He’s diving on the floor and making his presence known with his energy and effort on both ends of the hardwood.

“I’ve been doing that (diving on the floor) since middle school,” Williams said. “My mama said if I’m on the court, I’m on the floor. It don’t matter how many times I get knocked down I’m always getting back.

“So for me to dive, for me to fall, that’s nothing. It’s just...
 
#2

Here's the free part of the article:

There’s no ignoring the Kings’ Troy Williams problem.

Williams isn’t a problem in the sense that teammates do not like him or that he doesn’t make a difference on the court. The Kings need help on the perimeter, but in an ideal world, it would come from Justin Jackson, a player the team used a first-round draft pick on in 2017.

But it’s Williams, a two-way player who is making a difference on the court, putting the Kings in a quandary again. He has stood out, shooting 64.7 percent, averaging 7.5 points and 2.8 rebounds in four games. He’s diving on the floor and making his presence known with his energy and effort on both ends of the hardwood.

“I’ve been doing that (diving on the floor) since middle school,” Williams said. “My mama said if I’m on the court, I’m on the floor. It don’t matter how many times I get knocked down I’m always getting back.

“So for me to dive, for me to fall, that’s nothing. It’s just...
random thoughts:

- only 3 months older than JJ.
- shooting percentages are obviously the result of a small sample size. we need more minutes played to make a valid assessment in general, but looks promising.
- could also light a competitive spirit in JJ, but not sure he (JJ) works that way.
- does the skill set overlap with Shump's? would we then need only one of them, let say Williams, and use Shump's expiring contract for something without losing the defensive presence he provides?
 
#4
Williams has earned more run. He sticks out on the floor with his energy, athleticism and hustle. His put back dunk last night where he stared down Ibaka was spectacular.

Like another poster stated earlier, we need a larger sample to see if this is something he can sustain over extended minutes. Let’s see it Dave.
 
#5
I'm happy to see this thread.
I am JJ's worst critic here. It makes me feel like a rag but that's not what I am. I agree with the writer, it must be a dilemma, JJ was not only a 15th pick but next to Buddy the main return in the Cousins trade.
Troy needs to get JJ's minutes, he's clearly the better player, he's tough if nothing else and we need that. IMO JJ is not a NBA player but a successful NCAA player, like Mateen Cleaves. Nothing wrong with that except this ain't college. Vlade had the sense to let Papa go and he was picked higher than JJ so no shame in doing what we have to do to improve. If nothing else send him to Stockton. and see how that goes.
 
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#6
Kings are in a good spot. If he proves to be legit, you trade Shump to a needy contender. If not, he's a decent fallback to keep in Stockton.I

Either way, a healthy Bogi hopefully means JJ will only play if he earns it.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
Contributor
#11
Credit to Vlade for giving Joerger options. He's put together a roster with players who can fit in more than one slot and he's put Joerger into a position where he can do his job to figure out who plays best with whom and at what position. It's a good time to be a Kings fan and it's a good time to be Dave Joerger.
 
#13
I don't understand the rush to dump JJ. To begin with, with the return of Bogi, the minutes on the wing position will go down. Plus, we need to see Troy over a slightly extended period. Finally, even if we want to sign him to a more permanent contract, there is

1. No particular rush
2. We have 4 expiring contracts, none of whom are in our future plans. Shouldn't we cut one of them first?

I know that we can potentially trade them. So, we can wait till trade deadline (yes, I understand that Troy will need to spend some time in Stockton in that case). More importantly though, I don't really see any of our expiring contracts getting us something meaningful, unless we attach some assets with it (which might not be such a good idea).

Teams that give up something useful for expiring, are going towards rebuild. They don't give up their picks easily. Except Kosta, and to some extent Shump, teams that trade for them, will let them go. We might get some semi useful player, but at a pretty big cost. Might not be worth it for us.

The only possible exception I see is Wizards. They are clearly in a free fall, have two good players at the SF position, and no easy way to improve the roster. They are not dumping either of those guys for just expirings though. We will need to attach some assets (like JJ :) ). Even so, we have multiple expiring contracts to include in the deal if it comes to it.

Teams in our position should not give up on young guys after one season. If JJ doesn't pan out, he can always be released later. However, he has shown more than Papa did in his time. Add to the fact, that we already had several folks ahead of Papa, and developing him was really tough. JJ doesn't suffer from those problems. He has to develop into a consistent 3 and D player. I can understand the frustration, but he costs virtually nothing as of now, and it's too early to just give up on him, particularly till Troy can prove that he can perform on a consistent basis in the league.
 
#14
As I mentioned Papa, a short reply to kingsfan101 post. True Papa and JJ scenario's are different, we had bigs already with Papa, we need a SF in the case of JJ. I was more implying it's Ok to move on from a player or at least give a more talented player, in this case Troy Williams, playing time over a high draft pick.

A couple posters in this thread have said, there is no dilemma as the writer suggest, give the better talent the playing time. I recon they are right, it probably is more an awkward position for Vlade seeing JJ was his high draft pick. JJ is the type some folk really want to succeed, nice guy and all, I just don't see a positive impact. I do however like the idea of attaching him with expiring contracts if it nets us a good SF.
 
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#15
Williams is a great option to have but when he's seemingly our plan a and b then you know we need help.

At a minimum he has earnt his burn and we need to embrace developing him over JJ who is a sunk cost
 
#16
As I mentioned Papa, a short reply to kingsfan101 post. True Papa and JJ scenario's are different, we had bigs already with Papa, we need a SF in the case of JJ. I was more implying it's Ok to move on from a player or at least give a more talented player, in this case Troy Williams, playing time over a high draft pick.

A couple posters in this thread have said, there is no dilemma as the writer suggest, give the better talent the playing time. I recon they are right, it probably is more an awkward position for Vlade seeing JJ was his high draft pick. JJ is the type some folk really want to succeed, nice guy and all, I just don't see a positive impact. I do however like the idea of attaching him with expiring contracts if it nets us a good SF.
I agree with all of this. My very limited point in a long post :) was that there is no need to dump JJ. We have several other options.
 
#17
I have found myself presently surprised by Williams, for example every game he has played I find myself saying that’s a great play. By a great defensive play or a very smooth 3 pointer or even that put back the other night.

Now in contrast I find myself wondering why JJ is even playing and when he does something good I just think why’s he not doing that more often.

I see Williams getting his offense in the flow of the game as he just got here and look forward to seeing what he can do and if he can succeed as his playing time increases.

On other hand I have hoped that JJ just needs time to develop as the coaches must see something but he has lost his starting spot and is on the verge like Ben of being on the outside looking in.
 
#18
In short, I’m encouraged by Williams, frustrated by Jackson, and curious about whether Bogi or Shump can lock down the starting SF position.
But I’m not interested in dumping Jackson without something of value in return. And who’s going to give NBA value for a player that looks like he belongs in the G league?
 
#19
If the next 34 days shows that Williams does belong on the team:

Until the trade deadline, I am ok with Shump,JJ and Williams (for another 34 days) holding down SF position
If we get a starting SF at the deadline or FA in summer, I wouldnt mind signing williams so we have Williams and JJ as
2nd and 3rd SF(They will have to compete for bench minutes)

If a roster spot does not open up at the deadline, waive Ben to add Williams

I also think Buddy and Bogie should play at the 2 , except for maybe 10-15 min at 3 for Bogie
to keep the total min up for the two of them
 
#21
Jackson is trash. He's not an NBA talent. I was calling him G-Leaguer almost a year ago when most fans wanted to believe. His future is ballroom dancing with Dancing on the Stars. That's my career advice to him. :cool: . It is not hard to tell if a guy can play or not. He can't play! I made this comment many times, but bears repeating: Even when his shots go in, usually garbage time when the butterflies in his tummy have dispersed, they are not good shots. A running midrange floater when nervous about getting blocked is not going to translate to efficient scoring. He chokes on open threes, doesn't draw fouls or get above the rim to finish. Everyone can see it without a delusional bias. It is plain as the nose on your face unless you live in Homerland.

Hypothetically a player could make a good percentage of floaters if he has the threat to get to the rim. Superstar in-training D-Fox can make a lot of midrange floaters because defenders have to give him space so as not to get beat to the hole. Don't forget D-Fox will draw contact too, unlike G-Leaguer. D-Fox can make those easy shots in the lane at about a 70% clip whereas G-Leaguer will give you 25% if you are lucky. That is the difference between a dynamic player and a baby. But there is good news....Look at this glowing comment from D-Fox: “(Williams) brings energy and he just picks everybody up,” Kings guard De’Aaron Fox said. “Everybody picks it up offensively and everybody picks it up defensively, and when you feel that energy everybody just starts making shots and that’s what he does. He’s able to change the energy of the game.” This is a stinging indirect indictment of Jackson The best compliment you can pay him is he's a nice guy. Nice guys don't win games.

Now here is the good news. It is hard to admit another mistake after Papa G and Malachi. It gives the ownership pause when another asset is wasted on a phony. But if we hover at or above .500 it is going to easier for the decision makers (Vlade and Joerger) to bench this bum. The ego is in the way to try to turn this guy into functional rotational player. If the Kings continue to play well, including sweeping the rest of this homestand, then they can feel more secure in demoting Jackson to the end of the bench where he belongs. I like the idea of all wing minutes going to Shump and Williams, also playing Boggy at backup PG if Mason does not get his crap together. Then you move Yogi back into the rotation (since he is a better fit off-the-ball). You can go hyper-athletic with the second unit at 4 spots (Yogi, Williams, Bagley, Giles over Koufos) with Boggy running the show.

Koufos killed us against the Raptors. He was ineffective in the previous game too. Giles may be ready to soon to be reinserted into the rotation. Boggy really makes it easy on the bigs to catch and flip it in. Giles can flip it in better than Koufos! Hopefully Giles has been going beast mode in the gym so he can fight for the boards better. Then this second unit can give us a nice boost instead of struggling relative to the first team. The bottom line is over the next month I want to see Giles and Williams in the rotation , Koufos and Jackson out, perhaps Yogi over Mason if Mason doesn't turn it around. This rotation has be treated very delicately and prudently so we can stay in the playoff race and improve our seeding. Joerger is going to prove how good of a coach he is over the next few weeks and it starts with acknowledging the obvious with Jackson.
 
#22
Jackson is trash. He's not an NBA talent. I was calling him G-Leaguer almost a year ago when most fans wanted to believe. His future is ballroom dancing with Dancing on the Stars. That's my career advice to him. :cool:. It is not hard to tell if a guy can play or not. He can't play! I made this comment many times, but bears repeating: Even when his shots go in, usually garbage time when the butterflies in his tummy have dispersed, they are not good shots. A running midrange floater when nervous about getting blocked is not going to translate to efficient scoring. He chokes on open threes, doesn't draw fouls or get above the rim to finish. Everyone can see it without a delusional bias. It is plain as the nose on your face unless you live in Homerland.

Hypothetically a player could make a good percentage of floaters if he has the threat to get to the rim. Superstar in-training D-Fox can make a lot of midrange floaters because defenders have to give him space so as not to get beat to the hole. Don't forget D-Fox will draw contact too, unlike G-Leaguer. D-Fox can make those easy shots in the lane at about a 70% clip whereas G-Leaguer will give you 25% if you are lucky. That is the difference between a dynamic player and a baby. But there is good news....Look at this glowing comment from D-Fox: “(Williams) brings energy and he just picks everybody up,” Kings guard De’Aaron Fox said. “Everybody picks it up offensively and everybody picks it up defensively, and when you feel that energy everybody just starts making shots and that’s what he does. He’s able to change the energy of the game.” This is a stinging indirect indictment of Jackson The best compliment you can pay him is he's a nice guy. Nice guys don't win games.

Now here is the good news. It is hard to admit another mistake after Papa G and Malachi. It gives the ownership pause when another asset is wasted on a phony. But if we hover at or above .500 it is going to easier for the decision makers (Vlade and Joerger) to bench this bum. The ego is in the way to try to turn this guy into functional rotational player. If the Kings continue to play well, including sweeping the rest of this homestand, then they can feel more secure in demoting Jackson to the end of the bench where he belongs. I like the idea of all wing minutes going to Shump and Williams, also playing Boggy at backup PG if Mason does not get his crap together. Then you move Yogi back into the rotation (since he is a better fit off-the-ball). You can go hyper-athletic with the second unit at 4 spots (Yogi, Williams, Bagley, Giles over Koufos) with Boggy running the show.

Koufos killed us against the Raptors. He was ineffective in the previous game too. Giles may be ready to soon to be reinserted into the rotation. Boggy really makes it easy on the bigs to catch and flip it in. Giles can flip it in better than Koufos! Hopefully Giles has been going beast mode in the gym so he can fight for the boards better. Then this second unit can give us a nice boost instead of struggling relative to the first team. The bottom line is over the next month I want to see Giles and Williams in the rotation , Koufos and Jackson out, perhaps Yogi over Mason if Mason doesn't turn it around. This rotation has be treated very delicately and prudently so we can stay in the playoff race and improve our seeding. Joerger is going to prove how good of a coach he is over the next few weeks and it starts with acknowledging the obvious with Jackson.
off topic: I think you should start spelling Bogdan's nickname Bogi (most common spelling) instead of Boggy. Hear me out. Reading words on a page as opposed to just hearing them embues their meaning with a visual component. When i see "Bogi" an image of Humphrey Bogart comes to my mind which associates that word with something cool, collected, money (baby). When I see "Boggy" the definition of that word in the english language springs to my mind, and I think of something muddy, wet, slow and I think: this player sucks. :p
 
#23
We knew that the SF position was a problem before the season started and wishful thinking they had what they needed when most of us knew it has been a big problem since Rudy left is glaring.

You have to get something from every position on the floor and Shumpert with Williams They may not have big offensive nights but play decent defense and we can live with that on a reserve roll of the bench.

Unless something changes between now and the trade deadline we need to get and pay for a top tier SF and not just someone that’s available.
 
#24
It's a great dilemma to have. I'd like to have more dilemmas like Troy Williams on this team. There are two players that I've seen really hustle and get on the floor to get loose balls on this team - William and Mason. That's it. I see a lot of "observing" when there is a loose ball, very little "getting after it" except from these two guys.

Jackson: The best asset he has is moving without the ball. The best game I think I've seen him play was last year against OKC when he was running Paul George silly around picks and scoring on one of the better defenders in the league. He can also dribble fairly well. And he seems like a pretty good passer, but it's uncommon that he'll make a play for others. His defense and rebounding continue to look mediocre to me. I don't remember one game in his brief career where he made a real impact on the game in those areas.

Williams: He's got more speed and quickness than Jackson. He's probably not as tall as Jackson, but his athletic ability allows him to play taller than Jackson. He's not a great one-on-one defender at this point, but he disrupts the offensive flow of the other team with his speed and quickness by getting deflections, steals, and getting after those loose balls. He's also willing to fight the bigs for rebounds. From what I've seen I'd trust him to make a pressure outside shot over Jackson. The questions I have with Williams concern ball handling and passing, moving without the ball and BBIQ. I just need to see more of his play to have any conclusive on opinion on those matters. Unlike Shumpert, Williams seems to know his role. He's not out there playing hero ball. Lastly, the identity of this team is centered around speed. Williams has plenty of it, and therefore he's synergistic with the identity of this team. Overall, Williams deserves a lot more minutes of playing time.
 
#25
JJ seriously under the microscope. He only received 8 min last game, curious what today will bring against the pups.
I'm looking forward to Williams showing he belongs, even if its our # 2 SF option after a trade.
 
#26
random thoughts:

- only 3 months older than JJ.
- shooting percentages are obviously the result of a small sample size. we need more minutes played to make a valid assessment in general, but looks promising.
- could also light a competitive spirit in JJ, but not sure he (JJ) works that way.
- does the skill set overlap with Shump's? would we then need only one of them, let say Williams, and use Shump's expiring contract for something without losing the defensive presence he provides?
Didn't we have a North Carolina fan here during offseason this year who talked about this? And how he saw JJ's development?

Sidenote: Is there an option to search thread on this forum that I missed?
 
#28
Didn't we have a North Carolina fan here during offseason this year who talked about this? And how he saw JJ's development?

Sidenote: Is there an option to search thread on this forum that I missed?
I do remember we had a fan that was talking about how JJ improved each and every year but don't remember precisely what he had to say about his competitive spirit. I think you are referring to the same thing.
(There is no way to search the forum)
 
#30
Williams can at times be somewhat out of control but he also makes things happen for better or worse. Sometimes JJ makes nothing happen. Piece those backup minutes together using both guys and whomever is the best matchup in a game